Traditional Catholics and Forms of Gov't

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Tomster said:
I am so sick and tired of people saying the United States is a democracy. It ain’t so. The United States is a Constitutional Republic with Individual Rights.

Under the scenario of the U.S. being a democracy, hypothetically speaking, one could have, say, ten identical houses on a neighborhood street with one exception. That exception would be that one of those houses has a swimming pool while the others do not. In a democracy, the owners of those other nine houses could take a vote and pass a law saying that they could go swimming in that swimming pool. Too bad for the owner of the swimming pool.

Too simplistic a scenario? Take a look at your pay stub a check out who has been swimming there.
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Honestly, I’m tired of the “The US is not a democracy” meme.

We can democratically elect representatives who will amend the Constitution to allow me to swim in your pool. That won’t happen not because it’s not technically possible but because the people themselves don’t want it.
 
johnmann said:
Honestly, I’m tired of the “The US is not a democracy” meme.

We can democratically elect representatives who will amend the Constitution to allow me to swim in your pool. That won’t happen not because it’s not technically possible but because the people themselves don’t want it.
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Ah, might makes right. Technically it is impossible. Unless you’re a socialist. If so, then please make sure your pool is clean. I’ll be bringing the whole gang over.

Puhlese!
 
johnmann said:
Honestly, I’m tired of the “The US is not a democracy” meme.

We can democratically elect representatives who will amend the Constitution to allow me to swim in your pool. That won’t happen not because it’s not technically possible but because the people themselves don’t want it.
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the thing is the United States isn’t a democracy it is a constitutional representative democracy. There is a huge difference.

I think its a good thing we have a republic, the citizens don’t have to deal with every single piece of legislation but they can elect someone through voting to vote for them.

lets sya you have a country of 30 million people in a democracy if you have a law that will raise the gas tax .5% you would have to allow all 30 million people to vote.

in a republic those 30million people get split into groups of 1 million people lets say. Each group of 1 million people elect one person from their group to vote for them and support their views and beliefs. Then the 30 elected officials come together and vote on the .5% gas tax, or any other bill that may come up.

its alot more complicated then the above but I think you get the point.
 
catholictiger said:
the thing is the United States isn’t a democracy it is a constitutional representative democracy. There is a huge difference.

I think its a good thing we have a republic, the citizens don’t have to deal with every single piece of legislation but they can elect someone through voting to vote for them.

lets sya you have a country of 30 million people in a democracy if you have a law that will raise the gas tax .5% you would have to allow all 30 million people to vote.

in a republic those 30million people get split into groups of 1 million people lets say. Each group of 1 million people elect one person from their group to vote for them and support their views and beliefs. Then the 30 elected officials come together and vote on the .5% gas tax, or any other bill that may come up.

its alot more complicated then the above but I think you get the point.
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That’s like saying it’s not a cookie, it’s a big chocolate chip cookie.

What most people who mistakenly say that the US isn’t a democracy mean is that the US isn’t a direct democracy.
 
Traditionally, from what I’ve read, the Church’s preference was for a Catholic monarchy. Part of that, I think, stems from the fact that European republican movements tended to be strongly anti-clerical. However, it’s difficult to ensure that it will CONTINUE to be a good Catholic monarchy. Remember, Henry VIII was crown on the throne of St. Edward the Confessor.
 
johnmann said:
That’s like saying it’s not a cookie, it’s a big chocolate chip cookie.

What most people who mistakenly say that the US isn’t a democracy mean is that the US isn’t a direct democracy.
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It’s not even 100% representative democracy, either. True “democracy” is straight majority rule. A parliamentary system is probably the best example of indirect democracy as commonly practiced today.

The American system a lot of checks on the majority - equal state representation in the Senate (structured such that individual senators have the ability to delay legislation), and the Electoral College being the main ones. Many of the writings of the founders are highly critical of “democracy” as it had historically been practiced up to that time.
 
johnmann said:
That’s like saying it’s not a cookie, it’s a big chocolate chip cookie.

What most people who mistakenly say that the US isn’t a democracy mean is that the US isn’t a direct democracy.
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We can examine this further if you like. More hypotheticals.

Would you say that women, as a group, have specific rights?

Would you say that men, as a group, have specific rights?

Would you say that a woman, as an individual, has specific rights?

Would you say that a man, as an individual, has specific rights?
 
Tomster said:
We can examine this further if you like. More hypotheticals.

Would you say that women, as a group, have specific rights?

Would you say that men, as a group, have specific rights?

Would you say that a woman, as an individual, has specific rights?

Would you say that a man, as an individual, has specific rights?
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Moral rights? Legal rights? Rights specific to their gender? You aren’t being very clear.
 
JaMc said:
It’s not even 100% representative democracy, either. True “democracy” is straight majority rule. A parliamentary system is probably the best example of indirect democracy as commonly practiced today.

The American system a lot of checks on the majority - equal state representation in the Senate (structured such that individual senators have the ability to delay legislation), and the Electoral College being the main ones. Many of the writings of the founders are highly critical of “democracy” as it had historically been practiced up to that time.
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The Senate is democracy for the states. True, granting states their own voting rights can be considered undemocratic. So the US is a constitutional representative democratic republic. All those terms in isolation can be used to the describe the US but would be incomplete.
 
Tomster said:
Constitutional rights.
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Yes, everyone has constitutional rights. We also have the right to elect representative who will amend the constitution to add or remove constitutional rights. If the right majority wants to abolish freedom of speech, they can legally do so. The only obstacle is getting enough people.
 
The Catholic Church has seen all forms of government rise and fall. Some have embraced the church, others have treated it with hostility. All I care is that, regardless of the system of government, it recognises the basic dignities of all human beings and do not target the Church for persecution.

I’m honestly confused of this constant bickering on whether America is a republic or a democracy. I have never heard of republics and democracies as mutually exclusive concepts until I started dealing with American forums.

I’ll just explain how the rest of the world treats the subject: the two do not even refer to the same aspect of governance. One can be both, either or neither. To us, a republic is one where it the head of the state is appointed, be it by election or nomination, as the theoretical custodian of the government, and is used to distinguish from a monarchy, where the individual personally embodies governmental authority. A constitutional republic is a republic that additionally has a written basic law - a constitution. It has no bearing on how decision-making is conducted in the country. It could be a dictatorship or a consensus, but it would still be a republic.

A democracy, on the other hand, is simply a government where decisions significantly involve the popular vote in some way. It does not mean all decisions are made by the people directly, which is the misconception some people have. That belongs to the distinction between representative and direct democracy. It also does not affect the status of the head of state. The head of state could be an emperor, king, president or council, but as long as the popular vote is involved, the country would still be a democracy.

In this way, the United States is considered a constitutional republic and a representative democracy. It is a republic and a democracy. I am guessing the reason why there is this false impression that republics and democracies are considered polar opposites is because each of the two political parties are named after one or the other. And since the two parties are constantly at loggerheads with each other, they believe that the associated names must refer to mutually exclusive concepts too, and the party leaders perpetuate that attitude as well.

There is no such thing as “true democracy”. The idea of a “true democracy” is largely a polemical ideal where the proponents envision a specific system as the one that best embodies the wishes of the people. As such, people have called both representative democracies and direct democracies “true democracies”. If people demand for a monarchy, some would even call that “true democracy” too, simply because it is the wish of the people.

So let me illustrate a few examples for you…
  • Can one be a republic without being a democracy? Certainly! Look at China. They are a republic with a president nominated by the ruling party, but have next to no democracy.
  • Can one be a democracy without being a republic? That’s the United Kingdom for you. They are a constitutional monarchy and a representative democracy.
  • And can one be neither? The Holy See stands testament to that fact. 🙂
 
johnmann said:
Yes, everyone has constitutional rights. We also have the right to elect representative who will amend the constitution to add or remove constitutional rights. If the right majority wants to abolish freedom of speech, they can legally do so. The only obstacle is getting enough people.
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Wow. I think you need to take a look at what our founding fathers had to say about that.

And, just going by what you have said in the above paragraph, just where do the courts fit in in all of this.
 
johnmann said:
That’s like saying it’s not a cookie, it’s a big chocolate chip cookie.

What most people who mistakenly say that the US isn’t a democracy mean is that the US isn’t a direct democracy.
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at its core its a democracy i guess you are correct, but there are some ways its not a strict democracy.

legislators can vote against what the majority of people think. Most people hatted Obama care but legislators still approved it.

Also there is a thing called the supreme court the one thing in this country that cannot be overturned cannot be overruled. So we are not a complete democracy because of this.

for the sake of not turing this into a heated debate I’ll compromise.

the USA is a democracy sure, but a democracy is a very broad term. To be more specific the United States is a republic with a constitution.
 
Boulder257 said:
Then try it on a smaller scale. If you have kids, let your kids run the house for a few days. See how that works out for you.
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Or I can have randomly selected people decide the guilt or innocence of an alleged criminal in a courtroom. We can give it a special name like “joorie.”
 
The poll is flawed as it’s comparing apples and oranges where democracy and monarcy are listed as distinct. They aren’t. Canada is a constitutional monarchy AND a democracy. The pollster should have listed “democracy” as “republic” instead.
 
johnmann said:
The Senate is democracy for the states. True, granting states their own voting rights can be considered undemocratic. So the US is a constitutional representative democratic republic. All those terms in isolation can be used to the describe the US but would be incomplete.
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That is a more accurate description. Also, remember, the Senate didn’t even used to be directly elected by the people until 1913 - it used to be elected by State legislatures (as were the Presidential Electors in some states, but that fell out of favor by the mid 19th Century).

We are democratic, but not a straight-up democracy.
 
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