Traditional Catholics are not representing the Catholic Faith

[emom]

Our parish is very liberal and I wanted to know the opinions and advise of all you on what I need to concern myself with. I would consider our family as being “traditional/conservative/orthodox” Catholics. We are working to learn more about our faith and trying to get the discipline enough to be good Catholics.

I wanted to get more involved in leading our parish and forming an adult/child education that will bring them back to the true values of the catholic faith. I am on the adult formation committee thinking I can help spread good catholic teaching. I’ve brought to the attention to all the leaders of our church such as the pastor, DRE, pastoral associate and committee members good material such as Lighthouse Media with Scott Hahn cds, EWTN radio/TV, local radio programs and web sites to pass to our parishioners.

I am always told that it is not the focus of our parish for these materials or that these materials do not represent the catholic faith. I am very discouraged now and I feel that I can no longer be in this parish. The pastor doesn’t like confession, our associate believes woman should be priest, our DRE doesn’t even consider the “real presence” of Christ the most important thing at the Mass.

Has God given us this challenge to continue to voice our concerns and try to change our parish? Or do we make a compliant to the diocese and move on because we need to think about our children’s formation more. My son will be going into 2nd grade and working on First Communion and Penance, and I don’t want our parish community to break down what we are teaching at home. Even if we do pull out our children from the education program, he will be surrounded by the priest and other leaders voicing their want of change to modernize the faith.

 

[Windmill]

are there other parishes nearby, or are you stuck with this one? it sounds like you have made a huge, good-faith effort to try and inject actual catholicism into the parish life - and you were shot down. a friend of mine once told me, when it comes to church politics, you only have so many shots you can fire, so choose wisely. you may have fired all your shots, and now people will just write-off any future efforts to help this dying parish.

my vote would be to move on, if possible. you have done more than most, and god would be pleased with your efforts if they were done in a spirit of charity.

many parishes out there have totally missed the point of catholicism. it’s not to end unjust social structures that oppress the poor man (though that is a good thing to do), its primary purpose is to save souls from hell.

 

[emom]

are there other parishes nearby, or are you stuck with this one? .

We have a great parish in the area and we have been supplementing our faith formation there. This parish had the Scott Hahn cds and lead us back into the church. But it is not as close as we would like. We are willing to make the sacrafice of the driving time, but thought we should try to spread the truth to our current parish.

Right now I feel that we are shunned from the leaders and we are seen as being “backwards”. I feel very bad that we are leaving and not helping our parish, but I am not a dynamic speaker or even have enough courage to speak up. I do things with suggestions.

My husband has actually when head to head with the leaders and they don’t like us.

 

[maurin]

Great title you chose. Caught my attention immediately!

If you do not mind, please read my signature below. It is by St. Josemaria Escriva’, and your husband and you might find some application to your current circumstances.

Persevere, sister. By all means attend the other Parish that has helped lead you back to the Faith and to Our Holy Mother Church. And gently persevere in bringing light into your current Parish. And remember the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews teaching: “Let the charity of the brotherhood abide in you. And hospitality do not forget; for by this some, being not aware of it, have entertained angels” (13:1-2).

Prayers for you both!

 

[maurin]

sorry, I did not use St. Josemaria’s quote in this signature. It is as follows:

“Whenever you see a poor, wooden cross, alone, uncared-for, worthless…and without a corpus, don’t forget that that cross is your cross–the everyday hidden cross, unattractive and unconsoling–the cross that is waiting for the corpus it lacks: and that corpus must be you.”

 

[Franciscan]

This thread raises an important question for Traditional Catholics.

What’s best for the Church?

a. For traditional orthodox minded catholics to isolate themselves.

b.Re-take the Church from within, by teaching RCIA, Being on parish councils, DRE, Youth Ministry etc.

If the Church has been infiltrated by liberal minded unorthodox dissenters why cant traditional Catholics who have a sound knowledge of the Faith plan an infiltration of their own and reclaim the wholr Church.

 

[0kogipan]

I feel neutral in the traditional vs. new discussions about our faith. I feel that each side represents different aspects of the church. I do not feel that one should be overthrown for the other. Unfortunately, because you have a lot of people who grew up with the structures of one side or the other, it sometimes divides the church.

There tend to be other divisions in the church as well, especially in the U. S. The Catholic Church is global, so what appears to be very Catholic in one place seems odd to outsiders (even those who are also Catholic). This is even expressed by the diversity among Catholic Churches in just one town. I considered moving once and looked up the local Catholic churches in that town. This town had Ukranian, Polish, Byzantine, African American, and various other cultures represented by their own Catholic Church. Looking through their homepages, you could even get a taste of those cultures just by reading an online bulletin. While the various cultures do not normally clash with each other the way moderns and traditionalists seem to, the desire to keep ones own traditions seem to prevent them from combining parrishes the way you would generally expect them to. This is good for everyone.

Maybe, you should approach your priest about the pamphlets again but offer to include some that he feels would represent the parrish. Having the traditional and the new side by side can encourage discussion and learning. This can be especially good for discussions between younger and older members. Many younger parrishioners have probably never been exposed to traditional means of worship (probably never will be in some cases) and many older parrishioners might be happy to discuss this with them. You might make an event of scheduling a speaker on the topic and offer hor dourves to those coming.

You should probably expand the selection of pamphlets to include something representing the cultures of other local Catholic parrishes, local charities in need of donations or volunteers, and various organizations within your parrish (Mens club, Womens club, Knights of Columbus, Bible study, Theology on Tap, CCD, etc.). Stephen Rehrauer wrote a book titled Theology for Today’s Catholic. The first chapter of this book encouges all Catholics to be theologians-that is to study the faith and it’s different aspects. Your pamphlets would make that goal accessible to more people in your parrish.

I do not really think that you should give up on this. You may just need a different approach as to how you approach the priest about it. Keep up you good efforts.

 

[marymonde]

This thread raises an important question for Traditional Catholics.

What’s best for the Church?

a. For traditional orthodox minded catholics to isolate themselves.

b.Re-take the Church from within, by teaching RCIA, Being on parish councils, DRE, Youth Ministry etc.

If the Church has been infiltrated by liberal minded unorthodox dissenters why cant traditional Catholics who have a sound knowledge of the Faith plan an infiltration of their own and reclaim the wholr Church.

Franciscan,

I tried that, it only made my children’s faith grow cold. I honestly felt it was my Christian duty as a mother to bring them to a parish that acted like a parish, where the priest was in charge and not the laity. This in itself is the building block to pass on how Catholic life should truly be, that the faith is taught through an ordained priest. By the grace of God, through Our Blessed Mother, I trust my children will pass it on to theirs, if they choose not to become a priest or religious that it.

I want to add I still go to adoration at my “old” NO parish which is situated right across the road from my house. I cannot stand to think of Jesus being there alone, so I will not leave Him unattended. I put literature in the Church and chapel, like good prayer books, Latin Mass Magazines, From the Housetops, teachings of the saints, etc. I also attend on Friday nights a little groups of the faithful of the NO parish who are interested in learning more about Tradition and the Holy Faith. I steer them to speak with a HOLY traditional priest who can counsel them and give them concrete answers to their questions. Through this, a few have begun driving 80 miles to the TLM, thanks be to God.

Moral of the story… I can remain in a TLM parish and still have some sort of connection to the NO parish, that I DO dearly love and pray for daily. Mainly I believe that sacrifice and fasting do alot more good for the parishoners and priests here in my village, than stirring up the pot at the parish council meetings. It seems to have more positive effects on people’s souls.

 

[Franciscan]

Franciscan,

I tried that, it only made my children’s faith grow cold. I honestly felt it was my Christian duty as a mother to bring them to a parish that acted like a parish, where the priest was in charge and not the laity.

** Two points, first, I understand the caution you have as parent. Most larger familes are traditional minded Catholics. But they are the future ‘soldiers of christ’ if they are not taught the reality of the divisions in the Church but rather isolated in what others consider ‘extreme’ then they will not be equipped to change the Church in the future.They will be stuck on the outside looking in. Secondpoint, the facts are that the post Vat II Church is placing it’s future in the hands of the laity. If the only laity who step up to fill the leadership vacuum are those that have a liberal mindset then they have won. The laity gaining more power doesn’t have to be a disaster if traditional Catholics could get over their idea that the laity should sit back and be led. I know it sounds radical and inconsistent with the Catholicism of our parents but we orthodox laity must face reality.**

This in itself is the building block to pass on how Catholic life should truly be, that the faith is taught through an ordained priest.

**That only works when ordained priests are formed in Good seminaries. Sadly, many are not. Many laity have a better formation. Who teaches at the TLM parish (like CCD or school)? **

By the grace of God, through Our Blessed Mother, I trust my children will pass it on to theirs, if they choose not to become a priest or religious that it.

I want to add I still go to adoration at my “old” NO parish which is situated right across the road from my house. I cannot stand to think of Jesus being there alone, so I will not leave Him unattended.

Do they leave Him alone exposed for worship? That is a serious violation.

I put literature in the Church and chapel, like good prayer books, Latin Mass Magazines, From the Housetops, teachings of the saints, etc. I also attend on Friday nights a little groups of the faithful of the NO parish who are interested in learning more about Tradition and the Holy Faith. I steer them to speak with a HOLY traditional priest who can counsel them and give them concrete answers to their questions. Through this, a few have begun driving 80 miles to the TLM, thanks be to God.

Good, but not enough.

Moral of the story… I can remain in a TLM parish and still have some sort of connection to the NO parish, that I DO dearly love and pray for daily. Mainly I believe that sacrifice and fasting do alot more good for the parishoners and priests here in my village, than stirring up the pot at the parish council meetings. It seems to have more positive effects on people’s souls.

See comments above in bold. Marymonde, I applaude your efforts. Your post revealed why Trad minded Catholics do seem to isolate themselves. My point is that we need as many orthodox laity in this fight with kids or not. God Bless You.

 

[SnorterLuster]

See comments above in bold. Marymonde, I applaude your efforts. Your post revealed why Trad minded Catholics do seem to isolate themselves. My point is that we need as many orthodox laity in this fight with kids or not. God Bless You.

Francisican, you may well be on the right track, but it’s not a path I would choose to follow. I cannot get past the fact that the Church is a top down organization. Without the support of, at a minimum, your bishop, grassroot movements will go nowhere. If your bishop is hostile, then your group will be stillborn. The path of change in the Catholic Church is through the clergy. From my limited knowledge, it appears the new priests are much more orthodox than the last few generations of priests. That is the source of change.

 

[Franciscan]

Francisican, you may well be on the right track, but it’s not a path I would choose to follow. I cannot get past the fact that the Church is a top down organization. Without the support of, at a minimum, your bishop, grassroot movements will go nowhere. If your bishop is hostile, then your group will be stillborn. The path of change in the Catholic Church is through the clergy. From my limited knowledge, it appears the new priests are much more orthodox than the last few generations of priests. That is the source of change.

Yes, the so called John Paul II priests. I know a few. But when they are placed in aparish they will have a lot of damage to repair. And then where will the Trad Catholics be? Will they come back? Will the power-hungry liberal laity leave or give up their ‘power’? There will be a fight. Those priests need help from within. When they show up to a parish they need to have a parish council with likeminded Catholics. Catholics who will defer to his authority not resist his orthodox renewal.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

I feel neutral in the traditional vs. new discussions about our faith. I feel that each side represents different aspects of the church. I do not feel that one should be overthrown for the other. Unfortunately, because you have a lot of people who grew up with the structures of one side or the other, it sometimes divides the church.

I’m afraid I have to disagree with Okogipan. I’m pretty well traveled. I lived abroad for over 20 years have attended mass in many different countries and different cultures. The one thing I’ve always loved about the Catholic Church is its unity. Catholic doctrine, tradition and teachings in all of these places were in communion with Rome. Anytime liberal or modernist laity that depart from or deny church doctrine e.g. transubstantiation, are in serious error. I believe we have an obligation (as Okogipan is presently doing) to try to set them straight. If they persist in their opposition to Church teachings I’d resign from the committee, I’d give a written resignation to the priest explaining why, I’d change parishes to protect my children and I’d report the priest and parish to the local bishop.

The pope’s word is final in matters of faith and morals because it is inspired by the Holy Spirit; this doesn’t leave a lot of room for discussion.

I Okogipan for fighting the good fight and will keep her in my prayers.

Iowa Mike

Iowa Mike

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

I think the choice between isolation and engagement depends on individuals. Heterodox and abusive parishes will not change without some individual or group stepping up to do it, but that individual or group has to gain some sort of power or authority to actually bring this about. So let’s say that all the traditionalists decide to stay in their home parishes, diluting their talent pool so that in any given parish they form less than 5% of the congregation. They would have a shot at influencing open-minded parishes but would be spinning their wheels where heterodoxy was firmly entrenched.

Conversely, if all the traditionalists retreated to isolationist enclaves, they would have basically no influence in parishes in need of some new leaven. So I think traditionalists as a whole need to find a balance between forming communities where historic Catholicism can thrive, be passed on, and serve as an example on the one hand, and on the other hand allowing some to serve as “missionaries” to the Church at large, but wisely, in a way that will not simply dilute their resources. Now, in pure (non-Christian) mission territory it can take 10 or 15 years before missionary efforts bear fruit, so short term obstacles shouldn’t necessarily lead to a pull-out, but I think parents should, in the absence of a very clear call to a bad parish, put the formation of their children above staying in a seemingly unfruitful situation.

 

[Brendan]

Yes, the so called John Paul II priests. I know a few. But when they are placed in aparish they will have a lot of damage to repair. And then where will the Trad Catholics be? Will they come back? Will the power-hungry liberal laity leave or give up their ‘power’? There will be a fight. Those priests need help from within. When they show up to a parish they need to have a parish council with likeminded Catholics. Catholics who will defer to his authority not resist his orthodox renewal.

Franciscian,

I was in a parish that used to be a good one, but was rapidly turning into what the OP described.

We left for another parish, again mostly for the kids.

We are now in a parish that produces more seminarians than any other in the Archdiocese ( currently 6 men in the seminary). It produces these “John Paul” priests and they are educated well in our Seminary.

I do understand your point, but I cannot afford to have any vocation my kids might have by the antics of discenting priests.

And yes, if any of the seminarians from our parish get assigned as a replacement for our pastor, we would be back in heartbeat to give him what ever support he needed to get the parish back on track.

 

[Franciscan]

I think the choice between isolation and engagement depends on individuals.

I believe these individuals should be organized and supported by whole groups of people. There should be a strategy. Even if at first it is a stealth/ slow takeover and not totally confrontational like-“here I am a ‘wacko’ traditionalist in your face to declare you a heretic”. Once you get someone in as a DRE then the volunteers can be hand picked by him/her.Or as a liturgist-the people they choose to help can be already set up in advance. We have to be clever and smart about this

Heterodox and abusive parishes will not change without some individual or group stepping up to do it, but that individual or group has to gain some sort of power or authority to actually bring this about. So let’s say that all the traditionalists decide to stay in their home parishes, diluting their talent pool so that in any given parish they form less than 5% of the congregation. They would have a shot at influencing open-minded parishes but would be spinning their wheels where heterodoxy was firmly entrenched.

Conversely, if all the traditionalists retreated to isolationist enclaves, they would have basically no influence in parishes in need of some new leaven. So I think traditionalists as a whole need to find a balance between forming communities where historic Catholicism can thrive, be passed on, and serve as an example on the one hand, and on the other hand allowing some to serve as “missionaries” to the Church at large, but wisely, in a way that will not simply dilute their resources. Now, in pure (non-Christian) mission territory it can take 10 or 15 years before missionary efforts bear fruit, so short term obstacles shouldn’t necessarily lead to a pull-out, but I think parents should, in the absence of a very clear call to a bad parish, put the formation of their children above staying in a seemingly unfruitful situation.

I agree with what I undelined. It was well said. See other comments above in bold.

 

[emom]

I think parents should, in the absence of a very clear call to a bad parish, put the formation of their children above staying in a seemingly unfruitful situation.

My biggest concern is we are not strong parents and need all the guidance and structure to be good Catholic parents. We struggle everyday between the secular life, morals and teachigns of the Church to follow. We "know’ what to do but it is hard for us right now to truly follow the way of Christ. I get bad feelings from our current church and I would have not know what the true goal of the parish was if I did not volunteer and become more involved. Now, I know how they want to filter down their ideology to the parish. Side remarks and little things have make our parish so secular and even opened itself to non authority.

 

[rwoehmke]

This thread raises an important question for Traditional Catholics.
What’s best for the Church?. For traditional orthodox minded catholics to isolate themselves.b.Re-take the Church from within, by teaching RCIA, Being on parish councils, DRE, Youth Ministry etc. If the Church has been infiltrated by liberal minded unorthodox dissenters why cant traditional Catholics who have a sound knowledge of the Faith plan an infiltration of their own and reclaim the whole Church.

Joining the other parish is hardly isolating yourselves. With young children in their formative years you would be taking chances that they will be able to handle their parents lack of acceptance by the first parish. While it might be good for them to witness their parents fighting for the correct teaching, I think it more important that they get a good solid base first.

Secondly without a lot of time passing and a cadre of like minded fellow parishioners your kids will be grown and gone before you “save” these people by infiltration. Pray for them, but walk away now.

 

[John_Higgins]

emom,

You don’t really have any obligation to change the way your geographical parish operates. Find a parish that works for you and attend and participate there. My wife and I worship and perform lay ministries at a parish that is thought of as liberal, and that’s why we go there. Canon Law does not require you to be a member of your geographic parish.

God bless,

John

 

[aspawloski4th]

are there other parishes nearby, or are you stuck with this one? it sounds like you have made a huge, good-faith effort to try and inject actual catholicism into the parish life - and you were shot down. a friend of mine once told me, when it comes to church politics, you only have so many shots you can fire, so choose wisely. you may have fired all your shots, and now people will just write-off any future efforts to help this dying parish.

my vote would be to move on, if possible. you have done more than most, and god would be pleased with your efforts if they were done in a spirit of charity.

many parishes out there have totally missed the point of catholicism. it’s not to end unjust social structures that oppress the poor man (though that is a good thing to do), its primary purpose is to save souls from hell.

soe dont believe there is a hell anymore.

 

[ctos]

My son will be going into 2nd grade and working on First Communion and Penance

My personal opinion is that you need to take your son’s interests very much to heart. You can withstand the unorthodoxy, but your little son probably cannot. I suggest that you make a beeline for a traditional parish, and help found a school there if one doesn’t already exist. There are times, friend, when the orthodox must excuse itself from a rampant problem. The Arian crisis is such an case. Then, a heresy was rampant, and it became necessary for those of true faith to separate themselves from the deluded and disoriented. If you found a traditional school, your labors will be richly rewarded. You will produce dozens of strong young adults who embrace the true faith. There comes a time when you simply have to knock the dust from your shoes and move on.