Traditional Catholics as Pharisees

[parvenu74]

Let me say from beginning: I’m a traditional Catholic, 35 years old, and I’m told I have been going to the traditional Mass since 1975 (my parents were very early adherents to the “traditionalist movement”). What follows applies as much to myself as any other traddie. I’m going to make some broad assumptions which certainly don’t apply to every traditional Catholic – just most of them.

Among traditionalists, there is unfortunately an air of superiority and commonly a lack of Charity. The reasons for it are many but it mainly boils down to a common thread: folks who “left the novus ordo” did so because they were dismayed at the abuses not only in the liturgy but in the teaching of the Faith. At the places where they found the old Mass, they usually found solid doctrine being preached as well. In such an environment certain unfortunate attitudes will be developed, and certain less-than-ideal modes of discourse will arise with our “less enlightened” Catholic brethren who have not yet followed us to “the true Mass.” Again, I’m putting this in terms common to the traddies.

So I was particularly struck by this sermon from Audio Sancto – given by a “trad” priest and aimed at trad Catholics – when I heard it:

Conquer Your Inner Pharisee With Humility and Meekness

In it, the priest (who preaches missions and retreats all around the country) addresses the Pharisaical attitude that is common among many trads and exhorts us to realize this weakness and overcome it.

Long story short: I think that anyone who calls themselves a traditional Catholic should listen to this sermon at least three times a year. We might “have more” than others, but more will be demanded of us. And if we don’t have Charity… then which Mass we attend will make no difference in the final analysis.

 

[chaunceygardner]

Thank you for your post and the link to the sermon. I too have noticed an air of self-righteousness in many Traditional Catholics. I don’t really understand the conflict, since Catholics are allowed to worship under either Rite (not to mention the Eastern Rite of the Catholic Church). I say whichever rite feels “right” to you, go for it.

I would have to say in response to your thoughtful post, in particular to:

"We might “have more” than others, but more will be demanded of us. And if we don’t have Charity… then which Mass we attend will make no difference in the final analysis.",

AMEN

 

[Matrix_Refugee]

Thank you for posting this link and saying what needs to be said!! I love the Latin Mass, but nothing galls me more than the attitudes of some other “trads” who make us all look like we’re stuck in the 1940s or something.

 

[Layman]

I think in these times of terrible decadence in the wider society and seeing the high-jinks that can occur in some Novus Ordo Masses, it’s normal that traditionalists are … highly strung about their faith.

Fact is: How many traditionalists does the average N.O. attendee ever meet, knowingly, in the course of their life? I’d guess your average pew-warmer knows nothing at all about the SSPX. And not much more about the Latin Mass. They’re just not on the radar. So if some are pharisees, I don’t see how it should be a big deal.

**[Smiles] I wonder if the real source of these accusations of Pharisee-ism on this forum is that N.O. fans know, in their hearts, that the mainstream Church has lost much of its rigour since Vat. II? **

 

[ncjohn]

Fact is: How many traditionalists does the average N.O. attendee ever meet, knowingly, in the course of their life? I’d guess your average pew-warmer knows nothing at all about the SSPX. And not much more about the Latin Mass. They’re just not on the radar. So if some are pharisees, I don’t see how it should be a big deal.

You know, I just have to feel incredibly sorry for you, that rather than being able to see this constructive criticism for what it is you just once again write it off.

The threads in the Traditional forum are full of your posts–and those of a handful of others–reflecting on a variety of external things that just gall you to no end, as well as admissions on your part of how great in importance the externals such as dress, etc, are to you. You even went so far as to comment that a reverent EMHC was more of a “distraction” than a lackadaisical priest just going through the motions when distributing communion!

The gospels devote quite a bit of time to Jesus’ “woe to you Pharisees” passages, in which he really takes them to task for looking at the outside of the bowl without considering its contents. Your position though, from your posts, appears to be that the world just operates that way and that it’s ok to be making judgments based on all these externals and that if everyone would just adopt the EF everything would be peachy keen. It’s pretty rich irony that while you decry the OF as being too worldly–though the overwhelming majority of us don’t find it so–that you accept the ways of the world in going to judgment and ignoring Jesus’ explicit comments. What’s worse is that you then turn around and condemn those who refuse to indulge in the judgment games and know that we can worship reverently without worrying about all your little pet peeves. And in the end, that’s all they really are: just your little pet peeves that you can’t get past as if the world needs to conform to your tastes.

Fact is: How many traditionalists does the average N.O. attendee ever meet, knowingly, in the course of their life? I’d guess your average pew-warmer knows nothing at all about the SSPX. And not much more about the Latin Mass. They’re just not on the radar. So if some are pharisees, I don’t see how it should be a big deal.

In these days, the number is ever growing and quite frankly your attitudes are the most damaging thing that could happen to promoting the traditional cause. As an example, our diocese is experiencing more and more young traditional priests, which is causing a great number of people to question why they should want to even consider the things that those priests are promoting.

I have devoted a great deal of energy in talking with people, trying to explain the richness of the TLM and why many are so drawn to it, even though it is not my preference. Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of those they encounter who prefer it take exactly the attitudes that you do. They don’t extol their preference for its beauty but instead spend all their time denigrating the OF and implying that those who prefer it are lesser Catholics. The totally predictable result is that instead of having people support them or, at worst, just leave them in peace, they end up totally turned off or working actively against them.

It’s always the vocal minority that gets noticed. People hear about the Mel Gibsons and the Bishop Williamsons in the papers, then run into one or two vocal traditionalists with superiority complexes and they are turned off for good.

I’m sorry if this seems harsh, and I really am not trying to be insulting. I’m trying to constructively point out that just as you think that how you dress is of great importance, how you conduct yourself is of far greater importance. I would submit that condescending and condemning attitudes about the OF and its proponents are THE greatest stumbling block to the EF being more readily accepted and promoted. As has been pointed out here by numerous people, at times traditionalists are their own worst enemies and they can make it really hard for even those of us who try to support them to make any headway.

I can tell you first hand from my experience that when the EF started its resurgence 2-3 years ago that most people were ambivalent to mildly curious to see what it was all about. Now, however, I am finding them mostly opposed to it even being offered because of the people they have encounted personally who are supporting it.

So yes, a “few that are Pharisees” is a big deal. And I find that incredibly sad since I have so long supported the ability to have the EF available for any and all who wanted it. Unfortunately when those EF supporters don’t grant the “other side” the same respect it’s hard to garner much support.

Peace,

 

[chaunceygardner]

I think in these times of terrible decadence in the wider society and seeing the high-jinks that can occur in some Novus Ordo Masses, it’s normal that traditionalists are … highly strung about their faith.

Fact is: How many traditionalists does the average N.O. attendee ever meet, knowingly, in the course of their life? I’d guess your average pew-warmer knows nothing at all about the SSPX. And not much more about the Latin Mass. They’re just not on the radar. So if some are pharisees, I don’t see how it should be a big deal.

**[Smiles] I wonder if the real source of these accusations of Pharisee-ism on this forum is that N.O. fans know, in their hearts, that the mainstream Church has lost much of its rigour since Vat. II? **

You could be somewhat right, but it is telling that the sermon is coming from a traditionalist. He has noticed this from the “inside” as well, and realizes that the public stance presented by the “traditionalists” is causing division (but perhaps that is what they want).

 

[EasterJoy]

I think in these times of terrible decadence in the wider society and seeing the high-jinks that can occur in some Novus Ordo Masses, it’s normal that traditionalists are … highly strung about their faith.

Fact is: How many traditionalists does the average N.O. attendee ever meet, knowingly, in the course of their life? I’d guess your average pew-warmer knows nothing at all about the SSPX. And not much more about the Latin Mass. They’re just not on the radar. So if some are pharisees, I don’t see how it should be a big deal.

**[Smiles] I wonder if the real source of these accusations of Pharisee-ism on this forum is that N.O. fans know, in their hearts, that the mainstream Church has lost much of its rigour since Vat. II? **

This is not the kind of attitude that is going to warm “pew-warmers” to try the Latin Mass: “So what, if we are Pharisees? What of it? Like you Neanderthals would notice…”

“Blessed are the rigorous, for they shall…” what was that one again? I always forget!

The point is not to accuse anybody of anything. The point is to ask for self-examination. In what way does refusing to cultivate an attitude of meekness and humility further the Latin Mass? What good does it do to point the finger at someone else? Do “normal” faults do less damage than faults with less understandable excuses to back them up?

Do you want to do everything possible to foster every virtue among traditionalists, or not? If the talk was not aimed at other people who might profit from the same message, what of it? Why not aim at a small audience? It leaves less wiggle room. If the audience were wider, would that take the heat off those whose observance is traditional–or more active in helping the poor, or more scholarly, or what-have-you–since such as those are so much more advanced than the “wider” audience that the speaker must obviously have in mind?

What irony!! Why would the advanced thirst for virtue less than anyone else? Aren’t the advanced always that much more aware of the need for self-examination than others, to the point that the saints seem almost odd in their spiritual self-effacement? It is wisdom to want correction, to hunger and thirst for righteousness, rather than to think one already possesses a sufficient portion.

 

[Layman]

Nope, sorry.

I’m guessing that traditionalists are a minority in the Church. If so, pharisee traditionalists are a minority within a minority. Most Sunday Masses are Novus Ordo/Ordinary Form. Traditionalism was, until recently, off the radar for most Catholics. In practical terms, it still is.

If a few people, in a small minority, are pharisees, I don’t see how that’s a problem either SSPXers, TLM-fans or O.F. fans should worry too much about. It’s simple statistics.

I assume traditionalists have been outside the fold for a long time so maybe are likely to develop a siege-mentality. They may also attract more extreme people, by nature of that. The good thing is, that at a TLM, you needn’t hear a peep out of them. You can go in peace, attend in peace and leave in peace.

I think you’re lucky, at the moment, if you can get to a Latin Mass of any kind on a Sunday morning, at the moment. Pharisee-ism is a tertiary concern, for me, at best.

 

[EasterJoy]

I think you’re lucky, at the moment, if you can get to a Latin Mass of any kind on a Sunday morning, at the moment. Pharisee-ism is a tertiary concern, for me, at best.

If a small minority takes it for granted that they are entitled to eschew humility and meekness, it will take more than luck for them to become anything other than a small minority.

 

[Magnus467]

Thank you for your post and the link to the sermon. I too have noticed an air of self-righteousness in many Traditional Catholics. I don’t really understand the conflict, since Catholics are allowed to worship under either Rite (not to mention the Eastern Rite of the Catholic Church). I say whichever rite feels “right” to you, go for it.

I would have to say in response to your thoughtful post, in particular to:

"We might “have more” than others, but more will be demanded of us. And if we don’t have Charity… then which Mass we attend will make no difference in the final analysis.",

AMEN

The Mass we attend HAS NO DIFFERENCE in the final analysis. Sorry, couldn’t let this one slide. Going to OF (no such thing as NO) is sinful? wow, just wow.

 

[lumenorientale]

Nope, sorry.

I’m guessing that traditionalists are a minority in the Church. If so, pharisee traditionalists are a minority within a minority. Most Sunday Masses are Novus Ordo/Ordinary Form. Traditionalism was, until recently, off the radar for most Catholics. In practical terms, it still is.

If a few people, in a small minority, are pharisees, I don’t see how that’s a problem either SSPXers, TLM-fans or O.F. fans should worry too much about. It’s simple statistics.

I assume traditionalists have been outside the fold for a long time so maybe are likely to develop a siege-mentality. They may also attract more extreme people, by nature of that. The good thing is, that at a TLM, you needn’t hear a peep out of them. You can go in peace, attend in peace and leave in peace.

I think you’re lucky, at the moment, if you can get to a Latin Mass of any kind on a Sunday morning, at the moment. Pharisee-ism is a tertiary concern, for me, at best.

I think the intent of the opening post, and the sermon was not only to be “a good example” of meekness, but more having to do with the interior life. I’ve been to TLM’s before, and they are lovely. Not my preference, as I became Byzantine some time ago–not to escape the N.O., but because the Byzantine Rite is my home.

I think each individual needs to be concerned about Pharisee-ism in themselves, and that is what the O.P was driving at, especially those who are Traditionalists. I consider the Saints who went before us, all they knew was the TLM, really. St. Francis, the Little Flower. Yet they were as meek and humble as lambs. The O.P. was trying to stress the importance of cultivating that humility in ourselves, no matter what Rite we attend.

(I suppose that, in turn, it would make the TLM much more appealing to others if the attendees were less…prickly.)

 

[DavidJoseph]

The Mass we attend HAS NO DIFFERENCE in the final analysis. Sorry, couldn’t let this one slide. Going to OF (no such thing as NO) is sinful? wow, just wow.

In the first part of your above remarks, you’re correct. But where did chaunceygardner say going to the OF is sinful? I didn’t see him say anything of the sort!

 

[bpbasilphx]

I’d guess your average pew-warmer knows nothing at all about the SSPX.

---

**In case you’ve not heard, there are pew-warmers in anybody’s church and rite.

But I will say what I’ve said before: I’ve noticed a triumphalist attitude among devotees of the EF, possibly resulting from a seige mentality.

According to thee book GAMES CHRISTIANS PLAY, “Hold the Fort” is quite popular in some circles.**

 

[Matrix_Refugee]

It’s always the vocal minority that gets noticed. People hear about the Mel Gibsons and the Bishop Williamsons in the papers, then run into one or two vocal traditionalists with superiority complexes and they are turned off for good.

It’s like that saying about the squeaky wheel that gets the most oil: the Mel Gibsons, et al. are one dang loud wheel. A guy I met through St.Raphael.org was afraid to meet me face to face when he found out I like the Latin Mass, since one of his friends was a “rad trad” of the noisiest sort. I actually met her and she was one of the most rude and insulting people I ever met when it came to religious discussions.

And to be honest, I have seen posts on here that make me embarrassed and disgusted to be a Traditionalist. I came here to have my faith strengthened, not shaken. I know, yes, my faith needs testing, but I hate it when the tests come from the side I’m on. I hate it when the worst enemy seems to be us, not the powers of darkness. I hate it when “rad trads” go on about :: Insert target of the moment:: are doing the devil’s work, and they seem blithely oblivious to the fact that their own stony-hearted, close-minded, uncharitable and self-aggrandizing words and actions are also contributing…

I’m sorry if this seems harsh, and I really am not trying to be insulting. I’m trying to constructively point out that just as you think that how you dress is of great importance, how you conduct yourself is of far greater importance. I would submit that condescending and condemning attitudes about the OF and its proponents are THE greatest stumbling block to the EF being more readily accepted and promoted. As has been pointed out here by numerous people, at times traditionalists are their own worst enemies and they can make it really hard for even those of us who try to support them to make any headway.

Nope, no more harsh than a fellow named Jesus who called the “rad trads” of His day “white-washed tombs” and “a nest of snakes”.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

I listened to the sermon - great sermon by a great Priest!

Fr. ______ speaks of real life pharisee-ism but I’ve never encountered it in the real world. Online, yes. People tend to speak their minds more openly under the safety of a handle. But out in the real deal people just want to save their family’s souls and their own. I’ve met with nothing but good willed, sincere, loving individuals - well, I take that back… there’s this one old guy who’s always real bitter but I digress…

If anyone is bitter or pharasaical [sp?] I’m sure it will pass with time. We’ve all had to fend for ourselves and when we finally find a place of security that teaches the traditional Catholic faith and liturgy we have time to sort out our muddled brains and begin to see who we can point fingers at or where things went wrong.

Everybody is on a different level and in the current state of confusion people take things to different extents. I find fault with no one who does their best to make sense of things in our current age. Prayer is the only key.

On another note: I’ve experienced a worse level of ‘pharisee-ism’ and arrogance amongst conservative Catholics who snub their noses upon the TLM exclusivists or the efforts of the SSPX etc. These same people are willing to sit through heretical sermons filled with dual covenant theology, women priests etc. yet make a sour puss face when you mention you sometimes go to the SSPX. A clear double standard.

 

[thunderballs75]

I hate the fact that people like to call us Pharisees. However, it is us who are scorned at if we don’t stand during Communion like everybody else. It is us who are scorned when we ask for Latin in the liturgy, or Gregorian Chant. It is us who are judged if we try to dress nicely for Mass. It is us who wish to follow the directives of Vatican II, truly. It is us who are truly obedient when we don’t allow “liturgical dance”. What is this weird stereotype of traditional Catholics being Pharisees? Was every Catholic before 1969 a Pharisee?

Thanks for the video though. I will watch it indeed. God bless.

 

[Matrix_Refugee]

I don’t think this priest wanted to use the Pharisee term any more than Christ wanted to call the Pharisees white-washed tombs or a nest of snakes. And no, this does NOT mean every Catholic before Vatican II was a Pharisee. Being a Pharisee involves taking a rigorist view of the Church and expecting every Catholic to conform to it.

 

[Layman]

In my limited experience, you’ll only ever meet a “rad trad” if you take the trouble to speak to people after Mass. I think Catholics are noted for the distance they sit from each other at Mass, too, so chances are slim

I think as the TLM becomes more mainstream (hopefully) the influence of such people will be diluted.

If you take a ‘before and after Vat. II’ mental snapshot of the Roman Catholic rite and then factor in the wider decadence of society, then add the Fatima revelations and maybe one or two disapproved ones, you might understand their mentality better.

I’d guess they’re very concerned about where the Church has been going. And the sight of an occasional “Everyone-at-the-altar-for-the-consecration-after-a-bit-of-liturgical-dancing” Mass just adds fuel to the fire.

 

[Tartini]

In my limited experience, you’ll only ever meet a “rad trad” if you take the trouble to speak to people after Mass. I think Catholics are noted for the distance they sit from each other at Mass, too, so chances are slim

I think as the TLM becomes more mainstream (hopefully) the influence of such people will be diluted.

If you take a ‘before and after Vat. II’ mental snapshot of the Roman Catholic rite and then factor in the wider decadence of society, then add the Fatima revelations and maybe one or two disapproved ones, you might understand their mentality better.

I’d guess they’re very concerned about where the Church has been going. And the sight of an occasional “Everyone-at-the-altar-for-the-consecration-after-a-bit-of-liturgical-dancing” Mass just adds fuel to the fire.

I could not have said it better!

One should always constantly assess why they attend Mass in the first place. This will take one’s mind off of others and ultimately focus it on the Sacrifice of the Mass. To accuse one of being like a pharisee, is actually being a pharisee oneself.

 

[ncjohn]

Nope, sorry.

I’m guessing that traditionalists are a minority in the Church. If so, pharisee traditionalists are a minority within a minority. Most Sunday Masses are Novus Ordo/Ordinary Form. Traditionalism was, until recently, off the radar for most Catholics. In practical terms, it still is.

Nope, sorry.

This couldn’t be further from the truth. Since SP, there are traditionalists obvious in almost every parish I have seen. Most have quietly but more obviously adopted some of the traditional practices, such as wearing headcoverings or kneeling for communion. They are usually looked at initially with some curiosity but I have seen little in the way of negative judgments about them.

On the other hand, there is usually also a very vocal minority of outspoken traditionalists–I would suspect also pretty much in every parish–who are “demanding” things while simultaneously making it very clear that what they are requesting is the 'superior" choice and that all the rest of us are just a bunch of uneducated and irreverent rubes who just don’t know any better. In some cases I have seen them go so far as to “suggest” that the OF Masses should be done away with completely. And I have seen them complain about the OF Masses that are being celebrated very reverently by the exact same traditionalist priest who would then be celebrating the EF.

If you really think that those “couple” vocal Pharisees don’t poison the well for the whole movement, and that this is not a widespread phenomenon, I fear you have blinders on. Since SP traditionalists are no longer “in the closet” and hidden from view. More and more people at OF parishes are very aware of them and what they support. And more and more of them are becoming turned off by the “minority within a minority” that express a less than Christian attitude.

While I can understand the psychology of the lingering anger from the suppression, I really don’t understand anyone condoning or making excuses for this attitude that is so contrary to the gospel. I was very impressed and encouraged by the humility expressed by the priest in the OP’s homily and by his recognition of what was happening and how it reflected on the traditionalist movement. His attitude was one that is much more likely to gain the support of those who are on the fence, and to attract others to at least check things out themselves. Are you really going to continue to insist that it’s ok to take the negative attitude and undo the good work he is doing in promoting that cause and insist that that is no big deal?

For the sake of the Body of Christ I sure hope not.

Peace,