Traditional Catholics as Pharisees

[Layman]

Let’s see:

Roman Catholic Mass;
Latin rite;
Two savage World Wars and accompany genocides;
Increasing decadence in society;

What to do, what to do …?

I know! Let’s dump Latin!

And Gregorian Chant. Have the Mass in the local dialect, get the priest to turn his back on the Orient, tabernacle and crucifix and stop Communion, kneeling, on the tongue. In fact, make sure it’s gone by ripping out the altar rails. That helps play down the idea that the Sanctuary is different to the rest of the church, also.

Add in CITH, folksy hymns, unvested lay people in the Sanctuary, children’s pictures on the altar and then wonder why vocations are way down and people are dressing and behaving casually in Church.

**If it’s a cosy, communal, Eucharistic Celebration with lay-women handing out Communion and hand-shaking before Communion and you never hear about Sin, Hell and Damnation, well, it doesn’t look like there’s much to be worried about. **

So you can get 200 for Communion and maybe four for Confession before it. The message is that Jesus Is Love and that His Judgement is a foregone, favourable one.

Now if this was leading to increased, lasting conversions and vocations it would be a good sign. As far as I’ve heard, the opposite has happened. Therefore, it’s a good time to let the old rite be said in at least one church on a Sunday morning in every parish, as an experiment, if nothing else. If LifeTeen, folk, Charismatic and outdoor Masses can be done, then impeding or banning a 1500 year-old rite makes no sense.

 

[ncjohn]

Let’s see:

Roman Catholic Mass;
Latin rite;
Two savage World Wars and accompany genocides;
Increasing decadence in society;

What to do, what to do …?

I know! Let’s dump Latin!

And Gregorian Chant. Have the Mass in the local dialect, get the priest to turn his back on the Orient, tabernacle and crucifix and stop Communion, kneeling, on the tongue. In fact, make sure it’s gone by ripping out the altar rails. That helps play down the idea that the Sanctuary is different to the rest of the church, also.

Add in CITH, folksy hymns, unvested lay people in the Sanctuary, children’s pictures on the altar and then wonder why vocations are way down and people are dressing and behaving casually in Church.

**If it’s a cosy, communal, Eucharistic Celebration with lay-women handing out Communion and hand-shaking before Communion and you never hear about Sin, Hell and Damnation, well, it doesn’t look like there’s much to be worried about. **

So you can get 200 for Communion and maybe four for Confession before it. The message is that Jesus Is Love and that His Judgement is a foregone, favourable one.

Now if this was leading to increased, lasting conversions and vocations it would be a good sign. As far as I’ve heard, the opposite has happened. Therefore, it’s a good time to let the old rite be said in at least one church on a Sunday morning in every parish, as an experiment, if nothing else. If LifeTeen, folk, Charismatic and outdoor Masses can be done, then impeding or banning a 1500 year-old rite makes no sense.

I’m sure all of this has something to do with something but I sure don’t know what it might be, beyond more of the same harping about your personal pet peeves and opinions and the accompanying condescension toward anyone who doesn’t share them. It certainly has nothing to do with the topic and I have seen nobody here that doesn’t support wider availability of the EF for those who prefer it.

I really have to be honest with you that if you were my first or only contact with the glory of the EF I would be running the other way as fast as I could. Fortunately, my support for what you desire isn’t dependent on your making it easy for me to do so.

Peace,

 

[otjm]

And the idea that the vernacular is necessary so that the congregation can understand what’s going on presumes they are too stupid to learn Latin, even with missals translating every word and the basic prayers remaining the same week after week.

Perhaps it might do to define what “learning a language” really means. If one were to take a class in the language, it would mean eventually either being able to speak it, or be able to translate it. Prior to Vatican 2, only a minimal number of classes of Latin taught it as a spoken language; most were as a translated language. and extremely few people took enough Latin - 4 years of high school or two years of college Latin - to be able to translate on the fly. Most simply labored over a passage with a pencil or a pen. Not something one would want to do during Mass, as for other than repeated prayers, one would have no time to translate a passage into English.

Although missals were available, they had to be individually purchased, and something less than a majority of people bought. Most simply sat, stood or kneeled at the appropriate times, and had some sense of what might be going on at any individual point in the Mass.

What people found was that there is a vast difference between hearing someone say something in Latin, and reading a line by line translation of it as the Latin is being recited, and hearing the passage in one’s native language. That the vernacular has caught on like wildfire should be evidence of how much people prefer to hear the prayer, or reading, in one’s own tongue.

It is fairly simple to memorize Latin words and parrott them back. And yes, people can memorize the words and repeat them back; but unless they have been taught to speak Latin in conversation, it is a misuse of the term “learn Latin” to describe what they are doing.

Except for an occasional twit who has no clue as to how people learn and thinks that everyone must “listen to the Word proclaimed”, most people if provided with written material may make use of it; some do better hearing than reading, some the opposite. However, the response to having the Mass in the vernacular has been nothing short of stunning. That Latin can and should be used in some places - certainly the Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei are not major impositions - should be (and sadly isn’t) a given. But the vast majority shows little inclination to move back to all Latin.

You can keep calling a camel a horse, but **I think Catholic opinion is slowly moving towards Tradition and away from novelty, if only to drop an approach which has not noticably encouraged conversions, fervour and vocations; the Springtime which was hoped for. **

I think it was Albert Einstein who said that the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

One does not have to call a camel a horse to accept the fact that the OF is the Mass. So is the EF, and as explained by the Pope, not two different rites. That the OF needs some work, particularly in the area of translations should be no surprise to anyone - well, anyone but the twits. But as to a move to Tradition, well, that will depend on how one defines Tradition. If one means that there is a move to the EF, perhaps a look at Chicago Archdiocese might be revealing. Cardian George is open to the spread of the EF. As best information as is available to me, there are 12 parishes with the EF. Out of 340 - 350 parishes or so, that makes it about 3.5%.

One, of course,. may define Tradition differently. That there has been a move away from the silliness that started in the 70’s should be obvious to anyone who attends Mass in various parishes. As the priests ordained before Vatican 2, the ones who led the charge to introduce novelties, die off or retire, and as the next group gets older, and as more and more of what are now called the John Paul 2 priests are ordained and made pastors, there is a move farther from the novelty approach and towards “saying the black and doing the red”. It is certainly not perfect; but if one only experiences one or two parishes, one may easily but wrongly project that all parishes are off track. People who expect instantaneous change are ignorant of how anything works out in time. The issues of the JP2 priests are far different from the issues of the pre V2 priests, jsut as the youth of today has far different issues from their grandparents and great grandparents.

And so we find, gradully, that there is more reverence in how the OF is said; and of course that is not in all places equally. But the move is definitely there. Some areas will get there faster than others, but over time the change is occurring.

None of this is to say that there should not be room for those who wish to have the Mass in Latin. But nowhere is there any indication of a massive move, or a major move, or even large minor move towards it.

 

[Layman]

[To the previous poster but one] And I notice there’s a trend to focus on the person of the traditionalist in this sub-forum rather than their arguments. Even the title of this thread harps on that theme. I dare say if there was a thread entitled “Novus Ordo fans as Modernists” there would be uproar.

My ‘pet peeves’ are all interconnected. You can argue the value/licity of this or that modification, but taken as a whole, over time, they form part of an interesting trend. That’s the key thing. You can try to argue for changed prayers, versus-populum, CITH, vernacular, folksy hymns and EHMCs, individually, but viewed over time, if the trend were allowed to continue, Masses in another 40 years could be, um, somewhere left of the most liberal Dutch diocese.

If arguing against this trend gets me labelled a Pharisee, then so be it.

[To Otjm] I don’t think that the trend is being allowed to continue. The moves the Pope is making are very heartening. My personal hope is for a Sunday Morning Latin mass somewhere near where my family is from in Ireland. I’m okay for them here in London.

I harp on about the changes to the rite because I’ve seen some disheartening accomodations with fashion in the churches I’m familiar with in Ireland and the U.K. I can’t mention specifics as it may indentify the actual churches. The return of the old rite can’t come soon enough for me.

 

[otjm]

The musical setting amplifies the meaning of the words and sets the mental, spiritual, and psychological atmosphere in which the Divine Worship takes place. Gregorian chant, being dominated by melody – which corresponds to the intellective capacity of humans – directly assists in lifting the mind to God: it disposes a person to more fully to receive the graces of the Sacrifice of the Mass (the principle being that one can only receive the graces they are disposed to receive, regardless of how much grace is available to be received).

Are you suggesting, by your rhetorical question, that the words are all that matters and the musical setting of them is secondary in importance? If so, would you seriously assert that a thrash/metal rendition of the Magnificat (or any other scriptural passage) would be suitable for Mass or help dispose one for the reception of Christ’s Body in Holy Communion?

There is an old rule: Anything carried to its logical extreme becomes illogical. Thrash/metal renditions of the Magnificat fit quite well under that rule. You know as well as I do that no one is proposing such a thing. Dragging a red herring into the conversation serves only to derail the conversation.

One may not like the tune that the music is put to; we had tunes that sounded a bit sappy in the 1950’s. It is not like we are still singing “Michael row the boat ashore” any more. Neither are they writing music in polyphany to any great degree, and that is pretty much across the board and not symptomatic of the music in the Catholic Church only.

There is a reason that Vatican 2 focused on Gregorian Chant; it was on its way out already in terms of usage, and the Council was trying to prop it up, to little or no success. There is of course the phenomenon of the popularity of several CDs of Gregorian Chant; however, it simply did not translate from the world of popular music to the churches - Catholic or otherwise.

I was a part of a schola that recorded a record (you know - that vinyl stuff - CD’s not yet having been invented) of Chant. I love chant; and abhor it done by a choir that has little or no training in how chant should be sung. Having it sung by groups that have no clue to me is far worse than singing many of the hymns, for example, that OCP provides.

Note: I have no problem whatsoever with Gregorian Chant, if it is done correctly. I have no problem, for that matter, with chant of plainsong; I attend Mass fairly regularly - about once a month - at the local Trappist monestary, and God bless the monks there, because of their aging they are no longer capable of singing chant as well as they did 30 years ago or 40 years ago (I heard them then, too). It is sad, and painful to listen to it being done so poorly, as I really appreciate it done well.

But as to the tenor of your comments, I don’t like everything in OCP; that is a matter of personal taste. However, for all the snide and snotty comments that have been made elsewhere in other threads in this forum as to OCP music, most of the commentators seem to have no clue whatsoever what they are singing, and the disrespect shown to both Old Testament and new Testament passages truly amazes me. Some of them seem to border on preferring a Latin Gregorian Chant of their grocery list to hearing a passage, say, of Isiah set to something more modern from OCP. Which is not thrash/metal. And which makes for some interesting questions.

 

[otjm]

and then wonder why vocations are way down
So you can get 200 for Communion and maybe four for Confession before it.
Now if this was leading to increasedvocations it would be a good sign. As far as I’ve heard, the opposite has happened.

You play the game of post hoc, ergo propter hoc quite well.

You also ignore the fact that the three leading causes of decrease in vocations are artificial birth control, materialism and secularism. If you bothered yourself to ask questions instead of making presumptions based on little or nothing other than your own limited observations, you would know that families that had 4, 5 or nmore childrent were much more open to one or two of them entering the priesthood or religious life than familites that are limited, because of ABC, materialism and secualrism to one to two children. Children follow the lead of their parents; and parents who have small families and downplay (to put it mildly) vocations other than marriage and engineering or truck driving, for example, are not exactly hothouses for vocations to the religious life.

And while confession lines were longer pre-Vatican 2, so was the attendance rate - it hit about 70% in about 1958 and started its slow and gradual descent from there (which by the way was before Vatican 2). Proportionally, not a hugh percentage more people were going to confession before V2 than after; the reason that so few went to Communion before Vatican 2 had far more to do with the fast from midnight (which for most people was a fast from the end of the evening meal the day before - 6 or 7 p.m.). Even the change to the three hour fast did not impact many.

And as to yopur 4 people going to confession/Reconcilliation - that depends on the parish; maybe you need to get around a bit more.

 

[Layman]

I’ve been to a few churches, in different dioceses, in different countries, and waited for confession in most of them. I have to make sure I’m there early, as the priest might leave before the end of the designated half-hour, in two of them. They’re not swamped, that’s for sure.

If priests are mentioning from the pulpit that they’re taking on more parishes or vocations are way down, then what conclusions am I supposed to draw from that? A localised phenomenon? I sure hope so.

I assume Catholics think contraception is OK because they are not told of the terrible potential consequences of sin; Hell and Damnation. Or they don’t care what the Church thinks. I note, on the other hand, that it’s not unusual to see posters on traditionalist blogs and forums calling or describing themselves ‘mother of seven’ or ‘father of ten’.

Sure, there’s not an immediate, direct, obvious connection between Vat. II and falling vocations. But,

If after making drastic changes to our rite
And we then have a vocation problem/bad catechesis/lax observance
Then it’s worth at least making the old rite widely available again, on the basis of eliminating one variable as a potential cause of these problems.

If the Mass is tending towards a friendly, communal celebration with women and children to the fore then, I propose, that it’s not something that excites urgency in a potential, male, priest; it sends the message: not serious business, all’s well here, move on.

 

[JReducation]

Can someone redirect me. I’ve lost complete track of this thread.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Layman]

It’s to remind Traditional Catholics not to be Pharisees.

I’m guessing traditional catholics are a minority in the Church, if only because there aren’t a large number of TLMs to be traditional at. I’m further guessing that Pharisees are a minority within that minority. But I’ll keep an eye out.

The traditionalists I know only gripe about individuals when discussing particular Bishops and their peculiar attitude to Tradition.

 

[JReducation]

It’s to remind Traditional Catholics not to be Pharisees.

I’m guessing traditional catholics are a minority in the Church, if only because there aren’t a large number of TLMs to be traditional at. I’m further guessing that Pharisees are a minority within that minority. But I’ll keep an eye out.

The traditionalists I know only gripe about individuals when discussing particular Bishops and their peculiar attitude to Tradition.

If by pharisees we mean to stop pointing the finger at people and get working on buiding a unified community, I believe that everyone can use this good advice. We have turned into a society where there is a great deal of finger pointing and blaiming, but not much by way of creative problem solving. This is not just within the Church. Look at the economy.

Fraternallly,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[pnewton]

Can someone redirect me. I’ve lost complete track of this thread.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Do like I am going to and jump in the middle. I do not like to see traditionalists judged as a group (Pharisees) any more than I like to see what they call “Novus Ordo” catholics judged as a group by them.

The other day in the LOTH God’s remnant was described as humble. It is not a bad test for anyone that styles themselves as part of a remnant.

 

[EasterJoy]

That this wasn’t this a one-day, ten-post “wow, good point, great priest, that’s something we could all think about” thread says something.

Methinks somebody protests too much.

 

[Indyann]

I urge EVERYONE to try and watch or listen to Father Mitch Pacqua’s homily on EWTN this evening or at midnight.

If you do not have access per cable TV, you can view it at EWTN.com. Or listen to it on Catholic radio.

From some of his statements, it sounds as if, he has been reading posts on CAF. But, I suppose the problem (pharisees on both sides of the fence) is so universal, that he sees it all the time.