Traditional Catholics attending SSPX Masses.

[aggiecatholic85]

Just a random question I had…

Been reading a lot on the comboxes of NCR and whatnot about Traditionalist Catholics. A LOT of commentary was regarding the attendance of “Traddies” at SSPX Masses. I have read a LOT on SSPX and know full well they are in schism (sadly) still. So…would not attendance at these Masses for a fully united Traddie be sinful? And vice versa, is it equally as sinful for a SSPX member to receive Communion at a Traditional Mass (fully in union with Rome)?

Just wondering why someone who espouses full unity with Rome would attend a schismatic Mass, vs. FSSP or some other Traditional Mass, or Novus Ordo?

 

[Armor_of_Light]

Actually because of the decree Summorum Pontificum issued by Benedict XVI, they are permitted to celebrate the EF Mass without the Bishop’s permission, as long as the following conditions are met:

1. They do not speak or preach disobedience to the Holy Father.
2. There is no other EF Mass available under regular conditions in the local area (such as indult Mass, FSSP, ICKSP, etc.)

Under these conditions, the EF Mass they celebrate is valid and licit to fulfill one’s Sunday obligation, but any other sacraments, such as confession, are not valid.

This action was taken to provide the EF in those dioceses where the bishops were not generous enough to provide the EF Mass to those who desired it. Fortunately, in most dioceses, there is a Sunday EF Mass provided under diocesan approval, so condition 2 is not often met.

 

[Walking_Home]

Actually because of the decree Summorum Pontificum issued by Benedict XVI, they are permitted to celebrate the EF Mass without the Bishop’s permission, as long as the following conditions are met:

1. They do not speak or preach disobedience to the Holy Father.
2. There is no other EF Mass available under regular conditions in the local area (such as indult Mass, FSSP, ICKSP, etc.)

Under these conditions, the EF Mass they celebrate is valid and licit to fulfill one’s Sunday obligation, but any other sacraments, such as confession, are not valid.

This action was taken to provide the EF in those dioceses where the bishops were not generous enough to provide the EF Mass to those who desired it. Fortunately, in most dioceses, there is a Sunday EF Mass provided under diocesan approval, so condition 2 is not often met.

---

Hasn’t this been discussed already. That the SP applies to priests/bishops who are Not suspended.

 

[jwinch2]

Actually because of the decree Summorum Pontificum issued by Benedict XVI, they are permitted to celebrate the EF Mass without the Bishop’s permission, as long as the following conditions are met:

1. They do not speak or preach disobedience to the Holy Father.
2. There is no other EF Mass available under regular conditions in the local area (such as indult Mass, FSSP, ICKSP, etc.)

Under these conditions, the EF Mass they celebrate is valid and licit to fulfill one’s Sunday obligation, but any other sacraments, such as confession, are not valid.

This action was taken to provide the EF in those dioceses where the bishops were not generous enough to provide the EF Mass to those who desired it. Fortunately, in most dioceses, there is a Sunday EF Mass provided under diocesan approval, so condition 2 is not often met.

My understanding is similar to yours with the exception of other sacraments such as confession. I was under the impression that they were valid, but not licit.

 

[JuantheTuba]

In addition to what Amor of Light said, two things to clarify…

SSPX and know full well they are in schism (sadly) still.

To repeat what has already been said ad nauseam, the SSPX are NOT in schism, they are fully Catholic Priests and Bishops, whose Society is in irregular canonical status with the Church, which means they are suspended from performing their duties(even if they continue to do so).

And vice versa, is it equally as sinful for a SSPX member to receive Communion at a Traditional Mass (fully in union with Rome)?

Secondly, there is no such thing as SSPX “members” unless you count the Priests and Bishops of the Society. But the laity that attends is not in anyway seperated from the Church, so you shouldn’t think of them in the same way you would of the Orthodox. They can receive Communion at any valid and licit Mass granted they are in a state of grace, like every Catholic should be.

 

[MarkThompson]

Actually because of the decree Summorum Pontificum issued by Benedict XVI, they are permitted to celebrate the EF Mass without the Bishop’s permission, as long as the following conditions are met:

1. They do not speak or preach disobedience to the Holy Father.
2. There is no other EF Mass available under regular conditions in the local area (such as indult Mass, FSSP, ICKSP, etc.)

Under these conditions, the EF Mass they celebrate is valid and licit to fulfill one’s Sunday obligation, but any other sacraments, such as confession, are not valid.

This action was taken to provide the EF in those dioceses where the bishops were not generous enough to provide the EF Mass to those who desired it. Fortunately, in most dioceses, there is a Sunday EF Mass provided under diocesan approval, so condition 2 is not often met.

First, when you cut and paste somebody else’s writing wholesale, you ought to provide appropriate attribution. Presenting another person’s text as your own is a form of plagiarism.

Second, the text you lifted was wrong the first time around, as I explained at the time:
This is not correct. I know that one extremely simplistic explanation of what Summorum Pontificum did is that it “allows any priest to say the TLM.” That seems to be the thinking you’re going by – SSPX “bishops” are priests, therefore a fortiori they can say the TLM – but this is a misleading conception.

For instance, if you heard of a priest who decided to run off and leave the Church to get married (Fr. Cutié, for example), and who was defrocked, it would be obvious that he is not permitted to go about holding Masses of any sort whatsoever. Summorum Pontificum, it is plain, does not allow a Fr. Cutié to celebrate TLMs licitly. Thus it is not literally true that “any priest can say the TLM whenever he wants to,” or however it is that these things now get phrased on the message boards.

A priest defrocked or suspended a divinis may not say any Mass at all, Summorum Pontificum notwithstanding.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

It is not inherently sinful for a Catholic to attend a SPPX Mass. However, such Masses do not fulfill a Catholic’s Sunday obligation, which should be at a liturgy in full communion with the Catholic Church. Don’t ever consider falling for schismatic nonsense about being more Catholic than the Pope. Pray for them to return to full communion with the Church.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

First, when you cut and paste somebody else’s writing wholesale, you ought to provide appropriate attribution. Presenting another person’s text as your own is a form of plagiarism.

Second, the text you lifted was wrong the first time around, as I explained at the time:
This is not correct. I know that one extremely simplistic explanation of what Summorum Pontificum did is that it “allows any priest to say the TLM.” That seems to be the thinking you’re going by – SSPX “bishops” are priests, therefore a fortiori they can say the TLM – but this is a misleading conception.

For instance, if you heard of a priest who decided to run off and leave the Church to get married (Fr. Cutié, for example), and who was defrocked, it would be obvious that he is not permitted to go about holding Masses of any sort whatsoever. Summorum Pontificum, it is plain, does not allow a Fr. Cutié to celebrate TLMs licitly. Thus it is not literally true that “any priest can say the TLM whenever he wants to,” or however it is that these things now get phrased on the message boards.

A priest defrocked or suspended a divinis may not say any Mass at all, Summorum Pontificum notwithstanding.

Yes…my apologies to 10thCrusader who posted it originally. Grabbed the wrong post. I meant to grab the post after that one, which was mine. I’m too tired to do this anyway!

Jeez man, if mistakes on forums are plagiarism then what are insults?

 

[Basilios]

Just wondering why someone who espouses full unity with Rome would attend a schismatic Mass, vs. FSSP or some other Traditional Mass, or Novus Ordo?

If you go to SSPX for Mass/Sacraments when an Ecclesia Dei community is within reasonable distance (say, 10 miles) then you’re in trouble. If you go because the only other option is a Novus Ordo, you’re okay.

Edited to say: this is my personal opinion based on reading, priestly advice and personal reasons. I have no authority!

God Bless +

 

[JuantheTuba]

Don’t ever consider falling for schismatic nonsense about being more Catholic than the Pope. Pray for them to return to full communion with the Church.

:doh2:
Again, the SSPX is not schismatic.

 

[floresco]

Just wondering why someone who espouses full unity with Rome would attend a schismatic Mass, vs. FSSP or some other Traditional Mass, or Novus Ordo?

I am in full union with Rome and I have attended Mass at an SSPX chapel many times. I did so, after discussing the matter with my spiritual director, a holy priest, also in full union with Rome.

According to Rome, the SSPX is not in schism. I wanted to attend because I have a strong preference for the EF and I did not have access to it elsewhere. I also wanted to be there to express my support for the talks that were being held toward regularizing the canonical status of the SSPX. It seemed clear to me that Pope Benedict strongly desired this group to be reconciled and I felt that attending Mass with them was a way to express my support of the Pope.

 

[PaulinVA]

To repeat what has already been said ad nauseam, the SSPX are NOT in schism, they are fully Catholic Priests and Bishops, whose Society is in irregular canonical status with the Church, which means they are suspended from performing their duties(even if they continue to do so).
.

You are splitting hairs, but if it makes you feel good, go ahead. The Priests of the society are suspended and have no ministry in the Church due to the schismatic acts of the society.

That is why the laity is cautioned about regularly attending the society’s Masses, and “imbibing the schamistic spirit” of the society. You know, believing that supplied jurisdiction renders the society’s confessions valid and such.

 

[10thCrusader]

Armor of Light;10616006:

Actually because of the decree Summorum Pontificum issued by Benedict XVI, they are permitted to celebrate the EF Mass without the Bishop’s permission, as long as the following conditions are met:

1. They do not speak or preach disobedience to the Holy Father.
2. There is no other EF Mass available under regular conditions in the local area (such as indult Mass, FSSP, ICKSP, etc.)

Under these conditions, the EF Mass they celebrate is valid and licit to fulfill one’s Sunday obligation, but any other sacraments, such as confession, are not valid.

This action was taken to provide the EF in those dioceses where the bishops were not generous enough to provide the EF Mass to those who desired it. Fortunately, in most dioceses, there is a Sunday EF Mass provided under diocesan approval, so condition 2 is not often met.

First, when you cut and paste somebody else’s writing wholesale, you ought to provide appropriate attribution. Presenting another person’s text as your own is a form of plagiarism.

Actually, I think I gave permission in that same thread for anyone to use this explanation, because they thought is was a good summary of the current situation with the SSPX. I’m not not picking nits about this, so why should anyone else be?

 

[GWright]

Just wondering why someone who espouses full unity with Rome would attend a schismatic Mass, vs. FSSP or some other Traditional Mass, or Novus Ordo?

Hi aggie,

Its a good question.

I go to the novus ordo every week in my “normal” parish, which is busy, well run, has good priests and is blessed with a beautiful Church and talented choir.

However I have also started to occasionally attend the local SSPX Church in addition, though not every week. (As they only have one single sunday mass time, and sometimes it clashes with my novus ordo ministries - which I very much enjoy and are my priority - or is not practical for me).

For example, I might go to the Saturday Vigil mass in my own parish, and then to the SSPX sunday mass.

The reason I started my occasional SSPX attendance is that I am very interested in traditional liturgy (indeed traditional Catholicism in general) and they are the only ones willing to offer it in my location. So, its a no-brainer really.

The diocese I live in is reputed to be “hostile” to the traditional mass.

I am aware of just two diocesan parishes which have offered latin sunday mass, at different periods in time since summorum pontificum, but both efforts petered out. It is said that both clergy and laity are reticent to express interest in traditional liturgy for fear of sanctions from the diocese.

This all might seem like gossip, but for me these claims are backed up by:

The blogger Fr Z commented that my dioceses guidelines, issued regarding Summorum Pontificum, were the “most cold and negative” interpretation of the Holy Fathers wishes which he had encountered.

The Archbishop of Westminster, Vincent Nichols, runs training courses for the Latin mass. A priest from my diocese attended it (he offered one of the now-defunct latin masses locally) - from 100s of miles away - as none is available locally. It is on record - and was reported in the national secular press - that ++Nichols expressed great shock that a priest from this diocese had “dared” come to the training course and described him as a “very brave boy”.

Currently there is only one (out of 99) diocesan parishes which offers any traditional worship, an early evening mass on Tuesday and Thursdays and a lunchtime mass on Wednesdays. None of these are particularly accessible to people who work, and in any cases the diocesan web-page does not list these masses against the parish name: only the novus ordo masses are listed.

At the SSPX Church I have met people who have started visiting there for the same main reason as me - i.e. no alternative. Although I cannot verify their claims, some of these people have told me that:

(I) the single diocesan priest who currently offers latin, (on 3 days during the week), had to go to the training course in secret (while officially claiming to be visit family nearby) and

(ii) one lady who wrote to the bishop to ask about latin liturgy being made available was told, though not in so many words, that she could go to the SSPX if that’s what she wanted.

The nearest fully canonical group to offer traditional liturgy is the FSSP, but they are approx. 40 -50 miles away. Though I drove there to attend their evening sung mass on Holy Thursday (which was amazingly good), it is not practicable to go there regularly for various reasons, including time and expense.

Before visiting the SSPX I knew little or nothing about them, and would probably have guessed they were some dubious band of sedevacantists or something. But since exploring traditional liturgy and attending there, experiencing the liturgy and homilies, I have become impressed by them and knowledgeable about them - I really hope and pray they can be fully reconciled. (I have even been moved to read ++Lefebvre and cannot help but be impressed by him and sympathise with his views.)

So ultimately, that’s it.

Its a straight choice between occasionally visiting the SSPX in order to experience traditional liturgy / Catholicism, or watching youtube videos at home. While there are many nice videos on youtube, it obviously doesn’t compare with being able to attend mass in person.

 

[floresco]

You are splitting hairs, but if it makes you feel good, go ahead. The Priests of the society are suspended and have no ministry in the Church due to the schismatic acts of the society.

Using language in the same way that official Church documents do, is not “splitting hairs”. These terms are chosen for a reason and we should do our best to imitate them. This is a matter of prudence, not of “feeling good.”

 

[PaulinVA]

Using language in the same way that official Church documents do, is not “splitting hairs”. These terms are chosen for a reason and we should do our best to imitate them. This is a matter of prudence, not of “feeling good.”

I stand by what I said. If you have to parse the difference between “in schism” and “engaging in schismatic acts” then you are in an area that is problematic.

The post in question was not using the language in Church documents, anyway. As I said, the priests are suspended and have no ministry in the Church. That is their status. They do not have irregular canonical status - they have no canonical status.​

“The fact that the Society of Saint Pius X does not possess a canonical status in the Church is not, in the end, based on disciplinary but on doctrinal reasons. As long as the Society (of St Pius X) does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church” (Pope Benedict XVI, Letter of 10 March 2009 to the Bishops of the Catholic Church concerning the remission of the excommunication of the four bishops consecrated by Archbishop Lefebvre).

 

[Saints_Alive]

@ GWright,
Thanks for sharing the details of the situation on your diocese.

So, everyone, what are your thoughts on GWright’s post ?

It seems the SSPX has this stigma of being “schismatic and disobedient to the pope”.

How about the SP of BXVI ? When a diocese undermines the SP are they being "schismatic and disobedient to the pope " ?

Hard to fault folks from going to a SSPX Mass when their bishop rejects authority.

 

[Basilios]

How about the SP of BXVI ? When a diocese undermines the SP are they being "schismatic and disobedient to the pope " ?.

Reminds me of something I read recently.

When a Priest is reported as saying the traditional Mass or a diocese decides to have a weekly traditional Mass suddenly it’s “Oh wonderful finally Summorum Pontificum is being implemented!” But no. It’s not SP that’s being implemented. It’s Ecclesia Dei Adflicta being implemented 20 years passed it’s release date! That document called for a wide and generous provision for the traditional Mass in every single diocese so that at the minimum there is one on a Sunday that people may attend. Only since SP has this started happening - and even then, on a very, very, very, very weak scale. So we have the situation where two popes provide for traditionalists but the diocese doesn’t obey (like, for example, my recent diocese where traddy Masses are only at the most inconvenient times on a Weekday). So whose being disobedient now?

But then again, you have the SSPX being practical sedevacantists. I take a lot of flack in the traddy world for saying it but I know too much about the SSPX (call it inside knowledge if you will) to know that they aren’t working with a schismatic mentality. To me it’s a simple fact that they are schismatics in the same way that some well-known theologians (no names mentioned) are heretics. For both the Vatican hasn’t judged them to be, preferring to be a kind mother rather than stern father, but in both cases the facts speak for themselves. So what justifies me saying I would go to an SSPX Mass? Well, it depends on the priest. Some priests, and districts, operate with the attitude of hoping for reconciliation. Some don’t. Those that don’t, and openly say it, I won’t go to their Mass barring some extreme liturgical abuse in which case it’s up to my confessor.

Just my pennies worth!

God Bless

 

[Brendan_64]

So ultimately, that’s it.

Its a straight choice between occasionally visiting the SSPX in order to experience traditional liturgy / Catholicism, or watching youtube videos at home. While there are many nice videos on youtube, it obviously doesn’t compare with being able to attend mass in person.

If you are a Catholic you are a Catholic and should attend a Mass that is not illicit. Attending an SSPX is giving support to their schismatic stance, even more so if you attend Communion.

An EF Latin Mass is no more beneficial to your soul than an OF Mass said in the vernacular. If there is no Roman Catholic EF Mass available, then you should attend a normal Roman Catholic OF Mass. Attending Mass shouldn’t be about what type of style of Mass we prefer, it’s not a form of entertainment where we choose which style appeals more to us.

 

[Saints_Alive]

@Basilios

I don’t doubt there are some sedes in the pews, but to say the SSPX are practical sedes is false. Sedes don’t pray una cum Masses. Nor do they (SSPX clergy) last long in the Society once they make it known they are sedes.

I’ve distanced myself from the SSPX, but I’m not going to remain silent when I see Roman Catholic clergy berated as you have just done.

You have flat out lied.