Traditional Catholics: Please help

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baylee

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Hi all,

I am here because my husband has been reading books and downloading audio from the Dimond Brothers. He agrees with what they are saying about the post-Vatican II church. Among other things, he questions whether the popes since Vatican II are valid (ie. anti-popes), whether the Novus Ordo consecration is valid (because of the change in the words for many and for all), whether the Church changed its doctrine re: outside the Church there is no salvation, etc. etc. I agreed to lisen to one of the audios and even I found them pretty darn convincing. These guys scare me. As convincing as they seem to be, I don’t trust them.

Do average traditional Catholics believe what these guys do? If not, why not? What can you tell me that would help me show my husband that they are the ones who are the heretics? Any reliable links?

TIA
 
No, true traditional Catholics do not believe like this. True traditional Catholics, while they may attend the Latin Mass and use the more traditional devotions of the Church, recognize the Church of today and our Popes, as well as the validity of the Norvus Ordo (whether they like it or not is another matter). These people sound like Sede Vacantists, and though I don’t know much about them and would have to listen to them to really comment, from what you say it sounds like they may be border line heretical.
 
They have a lot of things right, and some things wrong. One big poblem with them is rash judgments, which result in false conclusions. They end by going too far on certain issues and rejecting clear teachings of the Church, such as Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood.
 
GeorgeSword said:
No, true traditional Catholics do not believe like this. True traditional Catholics, while they may attend the Latin Mass and use the more traditional devotions of the Church, recognize the Church of today and our Popes, as well as the validity of the Norvus Ordo (whether they like it or not is another matter). These people sound like Sede Vacantists, and though I don’t know much about them and would have to listen to them to really comment, from what you say it sounds like they may be border line heretical.
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You are absolutely correct these people are sede vacanists. As a matter of fact I believe that one of them is facing criminal charges in NY…but I am not sure on that. I do recall reading that they set themselves up as bishops…but there are a few threads around in regards to them.
 
Not that Sungenis always gets it right but it is interesting to see them hash the things out. 🙂
 
baylee said:
Hi all,

I am here because my husband has been reading books and downloading audio from the Dimond Brothers. He agrees with what they are saying about the post-Vatican II church. Among other things, he questions whether the popes since Vatican II are valid (ie. anti-popes), whether the Novus Ordo consecration is valid (because of the change in the words for many and for all), whether the Church changed its doctrine re: outside the Church there is no salvation, etc. etc. I agreed to lisen to one of the audios and even I found them pretty darn convincing. These guys scare me. As convincing as they seem to be, I don’t trust them.

Do average traditional Catholics believe what these guys do? If not, why not? What can you tell me that would help me show my husband that they are the ones who are the heretics? Any reliable links?

TIA
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Well, if they are Sede Vacantists and setting themselves up as bishops, I would advise you to stay far, far away from them.
 
baylee said:
Hi all,

I am here because my husband has been reading books and downloading audio from the Dimond Brothers. He agrees with what they are saying about the post-Vatican II church. Among other things, he questions whether the popes since Vatican II are valid (ie. anti-popes), whether the Novus Ordo consecration is valid (because of the change in the words for many and for all), whether the Church changed its doctrine re: outside the Church there is no salvation, etc. etc. I agreed to lisen to one of the audios and even I found them pretty darn convincing. These guys scare me. As convincing as they seem to be, I don’t trust them.

Do average traditional Catholics believe what these guys do? If not, why not? What can you tell me that would help me show my husband that they are the ones who are the heretics? Any reliable links?

TIA
Click to expand...
These people (when they go to the extreeme) in my op are schismatic if not down right heretics. One guy has his own website and claims to be Pope. Their arguments may sound convincing but in the end fall apart.

Some for example will quote a senior Cardinal as rebuking the Vat II Mass. But he was merely adressing some concerns. Once it was in its finalised form he actually supported it fully.

Pro multis is what the 1970 missal says. The same as the 1962 missal. Christ died for all but not all will be saved. To suggest the poor English translation (soon to be corrected to for many) invalidates the Mass is ridiculous.

The Church still teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church. The other year there was a media tizz over Pope Benedict restating this. Don’t see what the shock was, noting new there.

Here is an interesting article on Vat II liberals and then the other end of the spectrum
vulgatamagazine.org/neil03.html

These sites I have found to be of great use

matt1618.freeyellow.com/shawn.html

matt1618.freeyellow.com/TRADIT.html
 
In 107 AD, St. Ignatius of Antioch said that whoever is not with the Bishop, is not with the Catholic Church. A hundred years later, St. Irenaeus clarified that the Bishop of Rome, being the pre-eminent Bishop of the Church, is the one with whom we should all be united in doctrine.
 
baylee said:
Hi all,

I am here because my husband has been reading books and downloading audio from the Dimond Brothers. He agrees with what they are saying about the post-Vatican II church. Among other things, he questions whether the popes since Vatican II are valid (ie. anti-popes), whether the Novus Ordo consecration is valid (because of the change in the words for many and for all), whether the Church changed its doctrine re: outside the Church there is no salvation, etc. etc. I agreed to lisen to one of the audios and even I found them pretty darn convincing. These guys scare me. As convincing as they seem to be, I don’t trust them.

Do average traditional Catholics believe what these guys do? If not, why not? What can you tell me that would help me show my husband that they are the ones who are the heretics? Any reliable links?

TIA
Click to expand...
I dont know the first thing about this topic, I have no idea what any of this is about. I’ve only been w. the church for 2 years, I’m sorry, I’m quite ignorant in this area of things regarding the church or the novus ordo, etc. Don’t know the 1st thing about it.
 
baylee said:
Hi all,

I am here because my husband has been reading books and downloading audio from the Dimond Brothers. He agrees with what they are saying about the post-Vatican II church. Among other things, he questions whether the popes since Vatican II are valid (ie. anti-popes), whether the Novus Ordo consecration is valid (because of the change in the words for many and for all), whether the Church changed its doctrine re: outside the Church there is no salvation, etc. etc. I agreed to lisen to one of the audios and even I found them pretty darn convincing. These guys scare me. As convincing as they seem to be, I don’t trust them.

Do average traditional Catholics believe what these guys do? If not, why not? What can you tell me that would help me show my husband that they are the ones who are the heretics? Any reliable links?
Click to expand...
For one thing, they are not actually Religious brothers and are in no way affiliated with the Order of St. Benedict as they claim. Even still, they dishonestly call themselves “Brother” and call their house/trailer Most Holy Family Monastary. It’s about as valid as if you and I got an apartment together and called it a convent.

You might want to nudge your husband in the direction of their more sensational and ridiculous claims. Such as, the real Sister Lucia (of Fatima) was murdered and replaced with a look-alike imposter to promote the great “Third Secret of Fatima” conspiracy/cover-up.

They love conspiracy theories…the Illuminati, JPII as antichrist, various weird 9/11 theories, etc. They’re obviously unbalanced and blinded by pride, and although they’re intelligent on one level, there’s absolutely no manifest charity or humility in their public personas.
 
Canto said:
These people (when they go to the extreeme) in my op are schismatic if not down right heretics. One guy has his own website and claims to be Pope. Their arguments may sound convincing but in the end fall apart.

Some for example will quote a senior Cardinal as rebuking the Vat II Mass. But he was merely adressing some concerns. Once it was in its finalised form he actually supported it fully.

Pro multis is what the 1970 missal says. The same as the 1962 missal. Christ died for all but not all will be saved. To suggest the poor English translation (soon to be corrected to for many) invalidates the Mass is ridiculous.

The Church still teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church. The other year there was a media tizz over Pope Benedict restating this. Don’t see what the shock was, noting new there.

Here is an interesting article on Vat II liberals and then the other end of the spectrum
vulgatamagazine.org/neil03.html

These sites I have found to be of great use

matt1618.freeyellow.com/shawn.html

matt1618.freeyellow.com/TRADIT.html
Click to expand...
First let me give you all a huge thank you…keep the comments, advice and links coming!!

Second, Canto…you mentioned above that the translation will soon be changed. Where did you hear that?

Thirdly, we are planning on attending a Latin Mass for the first time this Saturday. I have always been open to checking one out and I am hoping that this too will help provide answers…and point us in the direction of true Traditional Catholicism. Perhaps the church that is celebrating it will have some information in the back of the church.
 
baylee said:
First let me give you all a huge thank you…keep the comments, advice and links coming!!

Second, Canto…you mentioned above that the translation will soon be changed. Where did you hear that?

Thirdly, we are planning on attending a Latin Mass for the first time this Saturday. I have always been open to checking one out and I am hoping that this too will help provide answers…and point us in the direction of true Traditional Catholicism. Perhaps the church that is celebrating it will have some information in the back of the church.
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The 1970 Missal (Post Vat II Mass) in English says for all. The Roman Missal has been re-translated for English speaking Catholics to make it more literal to the Latin, so it will now say for many. Advent 2010 or 2011 looks promising. Not a prob for those who go to a 1962 Missal Mass.

You can read the forthcoming order of Mass at the link below
usccb.org/romanmissal/OrdoMissaeWhiteBook.pdf

If you go to a 1962 Mass my experience is that they have a mini missal at the back of the Church with the Latin in one column and the English in the other. Don’t know that they actually have any information. The websites I find on the Mass often diss or distort the 1970 Missal Mass or just have the Latin text with English with no annotations.

the 1962 order of Mass is below
ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/TRIDMASS.TXT
 
A bit off the point, but since so many posts have quoted that incorrect translations in the Missals will be/ have now been corrected; can anyone tell me when the new missals will be available? I would like to give one to my daughter before she leaves home on her travels/studies.
 
ac claire suggests:

You might want to nudge your husband in the direction of their more sensational and ridiculous claims. Such as, the real Sister Lucia (of Fatima) was murdered and replaced with a look-alike imposter to promote the great “Third Secret of Fatima” conspiracy/cover-up.

Rory:

I was wondering if they believed in the message of Fatima. It seems difficult to have a hearty hope in the consecration of Russia and the happy triumph of Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart when the last valid pope, Pius XII, did not accomplish the consecration. It has been approximately 90 years since the Fatima events, and they hold that for about fifty of the 90 there has been no pope at all and no visible sign of another one on the horizon.
 
Also Baylee,

I don’t think anyone has mentioned that the Novus Ordo Latin uses the expression “pro multis”, “for many”. The Vatican has directed that the bishop’s conferences that had translated this falsely for so many years must make accurate revisions.

In addition, it is my understanding of the theology of consecration that the species are transformed before the priest begins to say this last part. When the priest proclaims “THIS IS MY BODY” and “THIS IS THE CUP OF MY BLOOD” we have a valid form. The bread and wine have been transubstantiated before the mistranslation is pronounced.
 
RoryMcKenzie56 said:
Also Baylee,

I don’t think anyone has mentioned that the Novus Ordo Latin uses the expression “pro multis”, “for many”. The Vatican has directed that the bishop’s conferences that had translated this falsely for so many years must make accurate revisions.

In addition, it is my understanding of the theology of consecration that the species are transformed before the priest begins to say this last part. When the priest proclaims “THIS IS MY BODY” and “THIS IS THE CUP OF MY BLOOD” we have a valid form. The bread and wine have been transubstantiated before the mistranslation is pronounced.
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This is what I thought too, but I thought I read in another thread here that the last part was important for the consecration of the wine. I’m still not clear about that. I find those posts extremely difficult to follow because they are so wordy.
 
RoryMcKenzie56 said:
ac claire suggests:

You might want to nudge your husband in the direction of their more sensational and ridiculous claims. Such as, the real Sister Lucia (of Fatima) was murdered and replaced with a look-alike imposter to promote the great “Third Secret of Fatima” conspiracy/cover-up.

Rory:

I was wondering if they believed in the message of Fatima. It seems difficult to have a hearty hope in the consecration of Russia and the happy triumph of Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart when the last valid pope, Pius XII, did not accomplish the consecration. It has been approximately 90 years since the Fatima events, and they hold that for about fifty of the 90 there has been no pope at all and no visible sign of another one on the horizon.
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They do believe in the message of Fatima. They believe that the consecration has happened, but that it doesn’t necessarily mean that Russia will be converted to Catholicism; it may mean that Russia will just improve in a general way. And the real Sister Lucia was replaced with a lookalike to supress the real Third Secret of Fatima. Which is, apparently…something about the great apostacy of the “Vatican II sect” and/or JPII being the Anti-Christ. It’s a very irrational and just plain odd view…not conistent with the rest of their opinions at all.

Which is…as this thread is proving…just business as usual for the Dimond brothers.
 
ac_claire said:
They do believe in the message of Fatima. They believe that the consecration has happened
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Actually, the Dimond Brothers (MHFM) are the only traditionalists who believe this. And, in my opinion, the reason they believe it is because they are forced into this position based on their belief that we are at the time just before the antichrist. Therefore, they are unable to accept that there will be one more restoration of Christendom (which is what is supposed to be accomplished by the Consecration) before the end of time. Therefore, they are forced to conclude that the consecration already took place.
 
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