Traditional catholics -- the new byzantines?

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I don’t know much about the experience of Byzantines, and know more about the experience of RC “Trads”. In my opinion, whatever it’s worth, the modernists in the Church had their day, but their influence is receding. While it isn’t true everywhere, I am seeing a lot more appreciation of, e.g., the Tridentine Mass and other traditional things in the last few years than I saw in the previous 30 years.

In my opinion, the intolerance of the modernists was not so much an intolerance of traditional forms as it was an intolerance of traditional thoughts and mores. It may be an awful thing to say, but I think, for instance, that there was a conscious effort to stifle the mystical; the personal relationship with God and his saints; personal prayerfulness. There was a conscious effort on the part of some to make the Church an essentially political and social institution. Notwithstanding that this all “seems” to have started in 1965, I think the problem predates Vatican II by a long way. Vatican II did not create the dissent and intolerance. It only revealed some things that were not so good and needed to be purged.

I think the modernist efforts have failed, and appreciation of the traditional, in all its forms, but most especially in the centrality of its emphasis on conversion of the human heart, is on the verge of a renaissance and a new appreciation in the Church. I would encourage you to have patience just a little while longer, my friend, and I ask the Lord to bless you.
I could not disagree more. It is the traditionalists that are the ones that seem to want to take the personal relationship with GOD out of one’s relationship with the Church, and instead worship the Catholic Church and all of it’s man made rules.
 
Are traditional Catholics the new Byzantines? There are some startling similarities, I think. As with so many Byzantines, we might live miles and miles away from our parish (if we’re lucky enough to have one) and this eliminates daily attendance at a Latin Mass and some times even weekly Mass. Many Bishops and priests ignore or dislike us… they want us to be assimilated into the modern Roman rite… they’re convinced that their spirituality is superior to ours… not just another way of practicing the same Catholic Faith (I’m talking about orthodox Catholics who like the new rite… not the dissenters and liturgical terrorists). And, as with the tragic exodus of many Byzantines into the Orthodox church in the early 1900s, some traditional Catholics attend schismatic chapels rather than abandon their tradition. So, the question remains: at the present day in the Catholic Church, are traditional Catholics relegated to the same second-class citizenry and bigotry that Byzantines were (and, in some ways, still are) accorded to them IN THEIR OWN CHURCH? Is this also leading to a Roman version of “Byzantine bitterness” in which anything post-conciliar is automatically trashed by many traditionalists in the way that certain Byzantines have a knee-jerk suspicious reaction to anything Roman? Certain tirades I’ve heard against Divine Mercy and the Luminous Mysteries would seem to indicate that this is so.
The thing with the Traditionalists is that they’re still obliged to attend Sunday Mass at any valid Catholic parish, be it Novus Ordo, Eastern or TLM. There is no excuse.
 
I could not disagree more. It is the traditionalists that are the ones that seem to want to take the personal relationship with GOD out of one’s relationship with the Church, and instead worship the Catholic Church and all of it’s man made rules.
Do you know what they say about pointing fingers, don’t you? 😉
 
The thing with the Traditionalists is that they’re still obliged to attend Sunday Mass at any valid Catholic parish, be it Novus Ordo, Eastern or TLM. There is no excuse.
I thought it could be done on Saturdays now too. :confused:
 
I could not disagree more. It is the traditionalists that are the ones that seem to want to take the personal relationship with GOD out of one’s relationship with the Church, and instead worship the Catholic Church and all of it’s man made rules.
Neither of us can prove our points objectively. But, for the sake of discussion, I think I ought to at least point out that there are lots of variations in what might be called “traditionalists”. I am personally very put off by at least the leaders of the SSPV, for example. I am very tempted to agree with your assessment as regards them. I am not so ready to put their parishioners in the same boat, as I have known (admittedly) a few, who struck me as being quite devout and serious in their spirituality, though horribly misguided.

I know a few more SSPX folks than that, and they seem to vary, and I am not quite as skeptical about the motivations of their clergy as I am of those of the SSPV.

Then there are people (those who attend The Grotto in Detroit, for example) who prefer the Novus Ordo in Latin and a choir worthy of a concert hall. But I saw long, long lines in front of the confessionals there, notwithstanding that six or eight priests were hearing confessions simultaneously. I met some of them and, while I can’t read their hearts, I would never accuse them of “worshipping the Church and its manmade rules”. They struck me as quite devout and caring people, though some perhaps were as you describe.

Then there are people like me, who love the TLM, Byzantine rites, Anglican Use and the Novus Ordo in Latin or English. I guess I consider myself a “traditionalist” of a sort, notwithstanding that I love the words of “Old Rugged Cross”. Yes, I do love the Church, and I respect its rules. But I know Who I worship, and that’s God Himself, who invites me into His life, in the Eucharist and forever.

But I’m old enough to have “been around” in a highly intellectual Catholic setting during Vatican II. I watched the Jesuits “melt down”. (I saw with sorrow that the Missouri Supreme Court ruled recently that St. Louis University is NOT a “religious school”, and I think the Court buttoned that one.) I watched nuns by the score become social workers only. I watched some parishes where the priest and the tabernacle are almost undiscoverable in the crowd of people in the sanctuary; where you can’t hear the Mass without straining, if at all, and where the focus is on some cantor or reader or army thereof, and where “social justice” and “fellowshipping” are the only gospels. I have seen bishops endorse John Kerry and equate Medicaid rule details with the killing of innocent unborn children in moral importance. I have seen the derision many of the “spirit of VII folks” have for “the old ladies who mumble their rosaries”. (And who are they to judge? How do they know they’re not mocking saints?) I have been treated to the endless self-congratulatory pontifications of the “liberation theologians”, and those who proclaim that their every secular policy utterance is “prophetic”. I have seen bishops who want those who cherished the TLM; the Mass of their childhoods and First Communions and Confirmations and Weddings, to go to their graves without ever seeing it again, even once, because it’s “old fashioned”. Well, so is charity. We have all seen bishops who bought into the psychobabble of recent years and who, in doing so, exposed children to sexual abuse. Perhaps they ought to have “worshipped” the Church’s rules more, not less. And perhaps some should not be so quick to judge what, among those forms approved by the Church, are and are not conducive to prayer, piety and redemption.

I have read that in designing the plaza in front of St. Peter’s, Bernini deliberately formed the columns in such a way as to signify the “open arms” of the Church, and thus of its spouse, Jesus Christ. I think Bernini had it right, and I think there is room in that embrace for traditionalists too. Yes, and for those who say “thou art”; those who say “Gospodi Pomilui” and those who sing “I’ll fly away”.
 
As far as I am concerned, the TLM belongs in a separate ritual church, united with Rome, but no longer part of the modern Roman Rite.

Likewise, I believe there should be a Major Archbishop of the Ruthenian Church… and a Ukranian Patriarch… and a Lutheran Catholic Rite, too.
 
As far as I am concerned, the TLM belongs in a separate ritual church, united with Rome, but no longer part of the modern Roman Rite.

Likewise, I believe there should be a Major Archbishop of the Ruthenian Church… and a Ukranian Patriarch… and a Lutheran Catholic Rite, too.
This makes absolutely no sense. The TLM is part of the Roman Rite, always has been and always will be. Likewise, there will never be a “Lutheran rite” because Lutheranism is a rejection of Catholicism.
 
The Byzantine Catholics are people of specific ethnicities, Rusyns, Ukrainians and others, who have familial and cultural ties as well as religious ones.
While this is true for many Eastern Catholics, it is not true of a great many of them. My own parish has plenty of western European names among the faithful. Their only ties to the other parishioners is a shared faith.

As for the original post, I have often thought of the similar plights of Eastern Catholics and Traditional Roman Catholics. One of the major developments in the Byzantine Catholic churches in the US was the removal of their pastoral care from the Latin ordinary. The moto proprio would have similar effects for the TLM community.
 
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