Traditional Latin Mass- In with the old, out with the new!

[VetA]

I never saw anything special about the Latin Mass. Still don’t. Wouldn’t ever in my life chose to go to one. I’m blind, can’t see the alter. I rely 100% on my hearing to know what’s going on. I’d like to actually, you know, NOT be sitting in a dark room with people doing things in a language I can’t understand.

I am also blind and very much love the traditional mass. I’ve only been to one, since I can’t drive myself. Surely you can appreciate sacred music? and what about incense? I love incense. The sense of smell has a strong impact on memory.

As for the language barrier, I simply learned Latin. I also will be attending a Maronite church and would love pick up enough Aramaic to understand the prayers. I think Hadley or Perkins might have a Latin course.

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but how do you interact with the computer, i am a person ignorant of this and wish to learn, i promise i am not trying to be rude or a jack a**

 

[Timothysis]

One is certainly more reverent than the other.

Opinion.

One is also more universal than the other.

Arguable.

One is more connected to apostolic tradition than the other.

Other liturgies can claim a greater apostolic tradition than the EF, so the point is…?

One is less prone to abuse than the other.

Meaningless. If the celebrant wishes to incorporate abuses then it is his decision alone, not the fault of the liturgy.

One was better attended when it was the OF than the other is now.

The form of the liturgy has nothing to do with Mass attendance.

 

[JustaServant]

Interestingly enough, the same occurs at the OF that I attend. So how does this support the notion that one form of the liturgy is better than the other?

The theology of the TLM., emphasizes the Sacrifice of Calvary & the fact that the Mass is primarily a renewal of this Sacrifice. It recognizes the fact that God demands this Sacrifice because of the sins of mankind.
The Novus Ordo emphasizes the Last Supper, the Banquet, the gathering together of people & is similar to the services of the Episcopals. It de-emphasizes both Christ’s ultimate Sacrifice & the sinfulness of mankind that put Him on the Cross.

 

[Ockham]

Arguable.

Universal (synonymous with catholic) means you should be able to go to Mass anywhere in the world and be able to participate. Is that is not true with the Novus Ordo, but it is with the TLM.

Also, it is not a matter of opinion one form is more reverent than the other. Your entire retort is faulty and without weight.

The TLM bears the four marks of the Church. The Novus Ordo was written forty years ago by a man who was not an apostle, it varies from place to place and is more of a communal meal than Holy Sacrifice.

 

[MarkThompson]

Universal (synonymous with catholic) means you should be able to go to Mass anywhere in the world and be able to participate. Is that is not true with the Novus Ordo, but it is with the TLM.

Also, it is not a matter of opinion one form is more reverent than the other. Your entire retort is faulty and without weight.

The TLM bears the four marks of the Church. The Novus Ordo was written forty years ago by a man who was not an apostle, it varies from place to place and is more of a communal meal than Holy Sacrifice.

Your unthinking dismissal of our Eastern rites is regrettable, but not unusual.

 

[Ockham]

Your unthinking dismissal of our Eastern rites is regrettable, but not unusual.

Is that all you’ve got?

 

[MarkThompson]

Is that all you’ve got?

Well, it kind of deconstructs all of your claims at once. The vaunted “universality” of the Roman form of the Mass only exists if you blind yourself to anything but the Latin Rite. Er, after 1570. Uh, and not counting the particularities of the Mass as celebrated by various religious orders, the Mozarabic and Ambrosian traditions, the vernacular Masses celebrated for the Algonquin, Mohawk, and other tribes, and on and on.

Of course, it’s a myth in many other ways, too – as though the Easter Vigil Mass at Chartres Cathedral were ever “the same as” some Monday morning low Mass at a suburban parish in Philadelphia. I don’t see why this is so hard to accept or even embrace, though.

 

[Timothysis]

The theology of the TLM., emphasizes the Sacrifice of Calvary & the fact that the Mass is primarily a renewal of this Sacrifice. It recognizes the fact that God demands this Sacrifice because of the sins of mankind.
The Novus Ordo emphasizes the Last Supper, the Banquet, the gathering together of people & is similar to the services of the Episcopals. It de-emphasizes both Christ’s ultimate Sacrifice & the sinfulness of mankind that put Him on the Cross.

*“What did the Vatican II Church officially declare about the Mass in reference to Pauline Rite Mass?”

"Hence, the Mass, the Lord's Supper, is at the same time and inseparably:

   1.** A sacrifice in which the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated**
   2. a memorial of the death and resurrection of the Lord, who said "do this in memory of me" (Lk. 22:19).
   3. a sacred banquet in which, through the communion of the Body and Blood of the Lord, the People of God share the benefits of the Paschal Sacrifice, renew the New Covenant which God has made with man once for all through the Blood of Christ. (Instruction on the Worship of the Eucharistic Mystery Eucharisticum Mysterium, #C1." *

 

[Timothysis]

Universal (synonymous with catholic) means you should be able to go to Mass anywhere in the world and be able to participate. Is that is not true with the Novus Ordo, but it is with the TLM.

Universal (synonymous with catholic) means that the faith is the same anywhere in the world, not that the discipline of the liturgy is the same. There have always been different rites and liturgies throughout the history of the Church…are you suggesting that, since at least 1570, the entire Catholic world celebrated the exact same liturgy the exact same way? I’m sure that the eastern catholic churches have a different experience.

Also, it is not a matter of opinion one form is more reverent than the other. Your entire retort is faulty and without weight.

Reverence is in the eye of the beholder. The attitude of those in attendance defines the degree of reverence, not the form of the liturgy.

The TLM bears the four marks of the Church. The Novus Ordo was written forty years ago by a man who was not an apostle, it varies from place to place and is more of a communal meal than Holy Sacrifice.

And which apostle authored the Roman Rite? And how can you reconcile that with the fact that during the two centuries before Gregory the Great the entire canon was recast by unknown hands and for unknown reasons?

Eucharisticum Mysterium states "*Hence, the Mass, the Lord’s Supper, is at the same time and inseparably:

1**. A sacrifice in which the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated**
2. a memorial of the death and resurrection of the Lord, who said “do this in memory of me” (Lk. 22:19).
3. a sacred banquet in which, through the communion of the Body and Blood of the Lord, the People of God share the benefits of the Paschal Sacrifice, renew the New Covenant which God has made with man once for all through the Blood of Christ. "*

 

[ProVobis]

*“What did the Vatican II Church officially declare about the Mass in reference to Pauline Rite Mass?”

"Hence, the Mass, the Lord's Supper, is at the same time and inseparably:

   1.** A sacrifice in which the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated***
   2. a memorial of the death and resurrection of the Lord, who said "do this in memory of me" (Lk. 22:19).
   3. a sacred banquet in which, through the communion of the Body and Blood of the Lord, the People of God share the benefits of the Paschal Sacrifice, renew the New Covenant which God has made with man once for all through the Blood of Christ. (Instruction on the Worship of the Eucharistic Mystery Eucharisticum Mysterium, #C1."

According to Monsignor Gamber in his book The Reform of the Roman Liturgy, this was not what the first edition of the Novus Ordo read. The Novus Ordo was designated as “the Lord’s Supper or the holy gathering or assembly of the people of God, as they come together, into one [Body], with the priest as the presider and taking on the persona of Christ, to celebrate the memorial of the Lord.” The document had the Pope’s signature on it, too, so it was legitimately accepted.

And that’s what many people remember as well as pass this information on.

 

[Ockham]

As a point of order, I’m only concerned with the Latin rite. Does the fact other rites exists justify the Novus Ordo? A Missa Sancta is the same everywhere in the world therefore universal and catholic.

Reverence is also an external. Put the two forms side by side and it should be clear which one has more of it. To argue they are similar is absurd. Based on the Gospels I doubt there was much joy and jocularity at the Last Supper but that’s common with the current OF.

The TLM evolved from the apostles. The Novus Ordo was penned by Bugnini in the late sixties. Do you deny this fact? It is also in its third revision. Who knows what it will look like next century.

 

[Timothysis]

Reverence is also an external. Put the two forms side by side and it should be clear which one has more of it. To argue they are similar is absurd. Based on the Gospels I doubt there was much joy and jocularity at the Last Supper but that’s common with the current OF.

I am assuming you know absurdity when you see it.

The TLM evolved from the apostles.

And you know this from…???

The Novus Ordo was penned by Bugnini in the late sixties. Do you deny this fact?

No. And the relevance of this is…???

It is also in its third revision. Who knows what it will look like next century.

If it continues the way it is heading now you may be in for a very pleasant surprise.

 

[plefe]

I found a very impressive video on the Traditional Latin mass. I wish to share it with you guys.
Now to prevent any argument for those who attend the NO mass, I wish to clear some things up. This person who goes by the name ‘checkthisout732’ who made the video also attends the Novus Ordo mass.
In the description of the video it says: "Another upload of mine explaining why our modern masses need to stop and why the significance of the traditional latin mass is more important than we thought. By ‘our modern masses need to stop’ he just meant the way some parishes do the New Mass (with drums guitars, inappropriate attire, etc). So please do not get offended with the title of the video or the description; The uploaded also attends the NO mass, and has nothing against it.

So without further interruption… here is the link to the video–>>youtube.com/watch?v=DbLmB2uqkhk

Beautiful…

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The TLM bears the four marks of the Church. The Novus Ordo was written forty years ago by a man who was not an apostle, it varies from place to place and is more of a communal meal than Holy Sacrifice.

The EF Mass was not written by an apostle either.

 

[Ockham]

It evolved organically from the Last Supper and Death of Our Lord. Bugnini’s composition did not.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

It evolved organically from the Last Supper and Death of Our Lord. Bugnini’s composition did not.

Yes the EF organically developed, but it is a wild claim to say that it developed from the Last Supper.

 

[Ockham]

It’s a common wild claim then.

 

[Geremia]

You would love this, then. Enjoy!

 

[Ockham]

I watched the Mass live.

Who’s blog is that? Looks impressive.

 

[DWC_RC]

I found a very impressive video on the Traditional Latin mass. I wish to share it with you guys.
Now to prevent any argument for those who attend the NO mass, I wish to clear some things up. This person who goes by the name ‘checkthisout732’ who made the video also attends the Novus Ordo mass.
In the description of the video it says: "Another upload of mine explaining why our modern masses need to stop and why the significance of the traditional latin mass is more important than we thought. By ‘our modern masses need to stop’ he just meant the way some parishes do the New Mass (with drums guitars, inappropriate attire, etc). So please do not get offended with the title of the video or the description; The uploaded also attends the NO mass, and has nothing against it.

So without further interruption… here is the link to the video–>>youtube.com/watch?v=DbLmB2uqkhk