Traditional Latin Mass said too fast?

[Cat]

That’s because no one taught it to you at an early age. If anything I’ll bet you were told not to bother because no one else understands Latin and it’s going away.

I was Evangelical Protestant for the first 47 years of my life. Latin wasn’t part of the picture. If any languages were suggested, they were Greek and Hebrew so we could understand the Bible.

Well 300K+ twitter followers (more than in Polish, German, or Arabic) of the Pope in Latin say otherwise.

I’m glad they enjoy Latin.

 

[ProVobis]

I would think people who have grown up hearing and or speaking Romance languages (such as Spanish and Italian) would have a better time with Latin even if they’ve never been exposed to actual Latin.

One would think so but that doesn’t seem to be the case. I found the Polish inflections are closer to the Latin’s inflections. But then that’s a descendant of another Church language, Old Slavonic.

 

[L_Marshall]

Much Latin’s complexity is due to the fact that the verbs must be conjugated at the same time as the nouns are declined.

Whereas in most languages, only the verbs or conjugated (changed to fit a particular place in the sentence; e.g.: IT sono / sei / è / siamo / siete / sono all are a conjugation of essere, to be), Latin conjugates all the verbs as well as declines most of the nouns.

While this can help to make things very clear in writing, it’s makes speaking the language very blocky, and requires a huge amount of effort to do well.

 

[ProVobis]

Much Latin’s complexity is due to the fact that the verbs must be conjugated at the same time as the nouns are declined.

Whereas in most languages, only the verbs or conjugated (changed to fit a particular place in the sentence; e.g.: IT sono / sei / è / siamo / siete / sono all are a conjugation of essere, to be), Latin conjugates all the verbs as well as declines most of the nouns.

While this can help to make things very clear in writing, it’s makes speaking the language very blocky, and requires a huge amount of effort to do well.

English with all its homophones, silent letters, irregularity, and pronunciations, etc. is rather tricky for foreigners and spoken phrases and sentences can be easily misinterpreted. And that’s before one factors in the fact that it’s spoken in so many different dialects. I was made painfully aware of this coming from the U.K. to the U.S.

Inflections make things easier to understand actually, once one is given enough training to do so, though I’ll agree that it takes a little effort to do well, especially in writing. But 2500 years worth of literature, documents, law, anatomy, scientific papers, music, and liturgy can’t be easily dismissed. There is no doubt Latin does provide scholarship, seriousness, immortality, and to some extent, mystery as well. The U.S. IMO was very wise to use Latin on its currency and various seals (U.S., Dept of Defense, Dept of Justice, etc.). The Church was even more so in its liturgy and documents, as well as preserving scripture.

 

[Learning1]

My two cents:
I think the problem comes from the fact that most people involved in the EF don’t actually know Latin that well. Yes, you can know the words perfectly, but unless you understand what you’re saying, when you’re saying it, it can just come out as a jumble of sounds.

When we speak a language we know well, we naturally alter our tone to suit what we’re talking about, and this usually doesn’t happen in the EF. That sort of fluency isn’t typically seen in Latin at all.

Yes, I agree. I do not want to learn the Latin Mass by memorizing the lines from a pronunciation cheat sheet without looking at the corresponding translation for fear of reciting a jumble of sounds.

*“If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.” *(1 Cor 13:1)

I am trying not to be a gong and I do not want to be a gong.

If anything I’ll bet you were told not to bother because no one else understands Latin and it’s going away.

This is one thing that has exasperated me for a few years. “The pronunciation doesn’t matter because it’s a dead language that no one speaks.” uch:

Well, number one, that doesn’t mean pronunciation rules don’t apply. I get up in arms when I hear that Latin teachers tell students that pronunciation doesn’t matter because no one will know whether you are pronouncing something correctly. (Other Latin students should.)

When seminarians or priests come to our house, the subject of Latin usually comes up, since I am having my sons learn Latin. Typically, the seminarian or priest tells me their experiences from the classroom where the teacher tells them there’s no way to know how to pronounce something, so they can make up their own pronunciation. These teachers are not teaching Latin well. You leave the student knowing that they don’t know how to speak Latin. Perhaps they should get a text that gives them tools to figure it out.

Well, maybe ‘no one’ speaks it, but many people are learning it and countless people use it everyday.

 

[baliano]

I was an Altar Boy in the fifties and clearly remember learning all the prayers in Latin and being tested on them as well as their English translation. Once learned they could be recited at a very rapid pace, even the Confiteor, the longest the Altar Boys prayed and we prayed it twice during the Mass.

A Latin Low Mass could be as short as 20 minutes or as long as 2 hours for a Solemn High Mass, we used to jostle for the opportunity to assist at the Low Masses.

It’s sad that the new OF Mass has reduced the once respected role of Altar Boy to that of a gofer with no real Liturgical participation.

 

[Thomas_White]

The various Romance languages are spoken in countries that were regions of the Holy Roman Empire (Italy, France, Spain, Romania and others). The Romance languages are regional dialects of Latin that evolved over the centuries. The term “Romance” is a reference to the language that was spoken by the original people of Rome, i.e., Latin. If one first learns Latin, leaning a Romance language is not so difficult. I would think this largely holds true in reverse, though it was not my experience having first studied Latin during high school.

I went on to study both Latin and French in college. The translation from Latin to English is sometimes awkward, with the meaning of the English translation sometimes becoming ambiguous if one is unfamiliar with Latin. An understanding of the way intensive pronouns function in Latin would be an example. Intensive pronouns always refer to the object of the sentence and never the subject. In translation from Latin to English this is sometimes ambiguous, depending on where a comma is placed. A loose or liberal translation from the literal Latin to English can present a problem.

 

[ProVobis]

An understanding of the way intensive pronouns function in Latin would be an example. Intensive pronouns always refer to the object of the sentence and never the subject. In translation from Latin to English this is sometimes ambiguous, depending on where a comma is placed. A loose or liberal translation from the literal Latin to English can present a problem.

A good example of this is in the Mass where we’re accustomed to hearing “Through Him and with Him and in Him…” where the Latin isn’t the lame “Per Eum et cum Eo et in Eo” but “Per IPSUM et cum IPSO et in IPSO” the much more intensive reference. There is no respectable way to translate this into English. “Through Him Himself and with Him Himself and in Him Himself” would sound weird but that’s the gist of the actual prayer. I’ve read where they wanted to italicize the “Him” but of course how does one sound out italics?

 

[Thomas_White]

A good example of this is in the Mass where we’re accustomed to hearing “Through Him and with Him and in Him…” where the Latin isn’t the lame “Per Eum et cum Eo et in Eo” but “Per IPSUM et cum IPSO et in IPSO” the much more intensive reference. There is no respectable way to translate this into English. “Through Him Himself and with Him Himself and in Him Himself” would sound weird but that’s the gist of the actual prayer. I’ve read where they wanted to italicize the “Him” but of course how does one sound out italics?

Indeed. An excellent example.

 

[ProVobis]

The translation from Latin to English is sometimes awkward, with the meaning of the English translation sometimes becoming ambiguous if one is unfamiliar with Latin. … A loose or liberal translation from the literal Latin to English can present a problem.

Yes, and even if one prefers listening to the vernacular, he or she should still learn some of the features and nuances of the Latin (or Greek, for that matter). The subjunctive, for example, which is so important to prayer but is rendered somewhat transparent and misunderstood in the English. Inflection is another important component, also lost in the English. As are gender relationships and demonstrative accuracies among other things.

 

[Another_Andrew]

I would think people who have grown up hearing and or speaking Romance languages (such as Spanish and Italian) would have a better time with Latin even if they’ve never been exposed to actual Latin.

The vowel sounds and largely soft consonant sounds of Romance languages can be difficult for those who are used to languages (such as English) where the consonant sounds are much harder and the rhythms of the language tend to be built around those harder sounds.

In Ecclesiastical Latin, which in its present form only dates back to the 19th century, that is true. In Classical Latin, however, there might even have been more hard sounds than in English, because the G and C were always hard and the soft forms of those letters didn’t yet exist in the Language.

 

[gspmcc1]

Never mind a Latin Mass, I’m troubled when the priest zooms through an English Mass, especially the Consecration! How very sad when we are in such a hurry that we cannot pause to worship God with more of an intent!

 

[Silver_Thread]

When serving I found myself responding quickly to the Priest! It’s easy to get caught up ! However, when attending Mass, I prefer reading along or at times meditating at certain times when I feel inspired to do so. Yes , I agree that most Priests’ do pray very quickly and I don’t know why, perhaps it’s because they have not been approached about.it. Ask your priest and get his response before you judge. Just as there are no demands on the laity as to their position at certain times (discretion is theirs), so too, there are no requirements to read along with the Priest. He is offering the Holy Sacrifice and our prayers and hopes and pleadings to God in our behalf! Looking back, my mother of 9 children had plenty to pray about without wondering if the Priest was too fast. Years ago the translation of latin was not available (no pamphlets). If I may be so bold…God hears our prayers, but I feel He is more in tuned to the mind and heart of the suppliant

 

[GangGreen]

Even discounting the fact that knowing a language allows you to speak it at a rate that sounds super fast to someone who doesn’t know it… but when you memorize something you can repeat it very fast. Remember that a large portion of the prayers in the Mass (especially TLM) are the same every single time. As a result, the priest will just say them at a pace that seems quite fast for someone who isn’t reading along or hasn’t memorized them (or just doesn’t know the language). That’s not to say that there aren’t priests who speed through it, but I’ve yet to go to a low Mass that took less than 50 minutes. The priest who does the Mass in one of the parishes I go to is a priest from the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest. When I hear him, it sounds fast, when I read along with him (or have stuff memorized) it’s not all that fast.

 

[Denise1957]

This was a Missa Contata and I believe it was 1.5 hrs.

The Acolytes say the Confiteor after the priest does and it was being said lightning speed by both parties. Again, I know Latin pronunciation and some Latin prayers and recognize quite a bit of it. I am sure I would pick up speed when I am more familiar with the text.

Granted, when the congregation is praying a prayer together, it is typically pretty slow. I was going to say ‘because there are so many saying it together’, but that doesn’t seem to hold true for the Rosary. I’ve experienced times when I’ve wondered how the people saying the Rosary have a clue of what they are saying.

Where I was going with it originally, was that one or two people praying a prayer will probably tend to go faster than a group, but the speed I am talking about is more than this.

I guess what l am hearing is that this might be common; whether or not it is right. However, because it does not reflect a prayerful Mass, this is what turns me off from the TLM. I see the form and beauty of the Mass, but when I hear the speed at which it is said, it doesn’t align with is experienced visually.

Perhaps you could try discussing the problem with the priest. It often bothers me, too, when the Latin prayers are said so fast that I can’t keep up when I’m reading it in the missal. And then the Hail Mary said after Mass (low Mass) is also said so fast that I can’t keep up. I agree that it doesn’t seem very prayerful to say prayers quickly, but there’s probably a good explanation for it.