Traditional Latin Mass

[brotherhrolf]

My brother NCJohn and I are of an age and quite similar backgrounds. If given a choice between the EF and the OF, I would take the opposite tack from him. I could go back to the EF in a heartbeat and I could easily serve as I did for years before and after Vatican II.

The EF was the universal Mass of HMC. When I was in the Navy, I had the opportunity to visit Spain. I walked into a church and a priest came out (in a cassock no less) and asked if he could help me. In my broken Spanish I told him that I had been an altar boy and I wished to make a visit to the Blessed Sacrament and to see a historic church. Father said to me “Introibo ad altare Dei”. To which I said, “Ad Deum qui laetificat juventutem meam”. That was all it took. I got the grand tour of the church including the crypts and the historic vestments in the sacristy. Such was the power of the universal Mass at that time.

As for abuses…I have no doubt that John saw them. I never did. I never saw a “speed Mass” even when it was just Father and me serving. Private prayers? Yeah, the little old Italian ladies in my parish dressed in black were guilty of this. But mine was a suburban parish with a Missa Cantata and our parish participated in the Latin responses which, if you look at them, are pretty much what the congregation says today except in Latin.

The flip side of that coin is that I have seen far too many abuses with the OF. There was a well known parish in New Orleans before Katrina noted for its 20 - 25 minute Saturday vigil OF Mass. I would no more use that as an example as to why not to attend the OF than I would using drunk Irish priests; devout pious old Italian ladies; or “speed Masses” in Latin.

This is a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.

I can say that before 1970, one could go anywhere in the world and be able to actively participate in the EF. The same, unfortunately, cannot be said for the OF.

 

[ncjohn]

I just don’t get why people believe that these abuses will come into effect. Sure maybe a few abuses will happen with the clergy who were raised on the NO mass but I don’t think this will be widespread.

I personally witnessed all of the things that Timothysis mentions, along with entire parts being left out, sermons omitted or shortened to less than two minutes, and priests so hungover or under the influence they should not have even been there (yes, I know this can happen in Pauline Masses also though I have never encountered it).

Why will they come into effect? Because it was priests raised with the TLM that did them before! Now you have priests saying the TLM who are dedicated to it and say it because they love it. If it became the norm you would no longer have only the exceptional priests saying it and the quality could not help but be diminished. On top of that, all those people who currently are the pew potatoes at the Pauline Masses would be there being pew potatoes and chatting around just like they do where they are now.

As the saying goes, be careful what you wish for!
Ultima Ratio:

How is it an abuse to say the prayers fast?

I almost have to laugh at the double standard of your responses here. All we hear from traditionalists is harping on every little thing that they think takes away the reverence of the Mass. Yet you have a priest rushing through the Mass so fast that his words cannot be understood and the server’s responses are totally irrelevant since they are being “walked over” and you don’t seem to think it’s a problem.

 

[brigantine]

I can say that before 1970, one could go anywhere in the world and be able to actively participate in the EF. The same, unfortunately, cannot be said for the OF.

This is one thing I love with the Orthodox Church. No matter where I go or the language I know exactly the spot I’m at in the liturgy.

I’ve always wondered why not standardize the OF? Like I said before the RC Churches I grew up in were OF but were done very well. I’ve never personally witnessed (only herd from family members and friends) about the crazy OF Masses. The Church I go to now (Saint Paul’s Catholic Church) in Portsmouth, VA is OF but done very beautifully. I still would like to see the EF done if only at special occasions like the EO do with the Liturgy of Saint Basil.

When I was in the Navy

I’m a Navy Vet myself! What was your rate? I was an Hull Tech.

 

[Timothysis]

I almost have to laugh at the double standard of your responses here. All we hear from traditionalists is harping on every little thing that they think takes away the reverence of the Mass. Yet you have a priest rushing through the Mass so fast that his words cannot be understood and the server’s responses are totally irrelevant since they are being “walked over” and you don’t seem to think it’s a problem.

Thank you. I have found that it is akin to whistling in the wind to respond to our friend Ultima Ratio. I had a teacher in college who would say, “if you can’t dazzle them with your brilliance, then baffle them with your bull$%^&!” Sometimes I wonder if Ultima Ratio had the same teacher!

 

[brigantine]

Why will they come into effect? Because it was priests raised with the TLM that did them before! Now you have priests saying the TLM who are dedicated to it and say it because they love it. If it became the norm you would no longer have only the exceptional priests saying it and the quality could not help but be diminished. On top of that, all those people who currently are the pew potatoes at the Pauline Masses would be there being pew potatoes and chatting around just like they do where they are now.

I don’t want to seem argumentative but this does not answer the question. Maybe in the past it happened but that does not mean it will continue. The loss of the OF for so long could have been used as a time to reflect on just what was there and lost. Sort of like the Iconoclast period.

I understand what your saying about exceptional Priests but I think you are selling many new RC Priests short. Why is it Orthodox Priests and Laity love their Traditional service? Are Orthodox genetically more pious than Catholics? I don’t think so! The most pious person I ever met was my Aunt and she was born and died a Roman Catholic.

 

[Timothysis]

But **I understand that some people have to justfy that sacreliges that take place on a regular basis at the Novus Ordo **by pretending that there were similar abuses at the Traditional Mass. But almost all they can come up with are stories of Priests saying the mass at a pace that they personally consider to be too fast. They pretend that this is an abuse, even though the rubrics don’t provide the speed at which the prayers are to be said.

Then tell me, dear friend, of the sacrileges that occur on a regular basis at the Church where I attend Mass. I’m sure the good Monsignor would love to know, especially considering your acute knowledge of all things Catholic.

You defend every Tridentine Mass ever said and condemn every Pauline Mass that you’ve never witnessed. Now, which pot is calling which kettle “black?”

 

[Timothysis]

There is nothing wrong with saying personal prayers, such as the Rosary, at Mass. As long as the person is following along with the basic parts of the Mass, this is perfectly acceptable, as Pope Pius X says in his Catechism.

Actually, Pope Pius XII considered allowing certain parts of the Mass in the vernacular for the particular purpose of curtailing the personal devotions that were occurring during the Mass. Perhaps we’ll let him and Pope Pius X slug it out.

 

[brigantine]

I really did not want this to turn into a OF -vs- EF battle royal! My entire life (except 11 years of EO Liturgies) has been OF Masses and they have been great. They are different than the EF though and from what I’ve seen on youtube do not compare in beauty. That’s not to say that OF are not beautiful in there own right but there is a big difference.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I was referring to the Tridentine Mass!

Which historically can be celebrated in Slavonic. Did you know that?

If you mean Extraordinary Form–the terminology preferred by Pope Benedict XIV–then say so.

 

[Alex_Luciano]

Lately, for some reason, I have been really attracted to TLM, I haven’t been to one, I’ve only seen them on TV and the like, but I have this desire to go. Hopefully next Sunday I will go to one. I just wish that the Paul VI Mass was better celebrated. I live in Orlando,Fl and my parish is just terrible with their mass. It really becomes a distraction to see the altar servers with flip flops and teenage girls with hot pants. I don’t understand how parents can acquiesce to that. The building is awfully plain and feels like a Lutheran church. I don’t want to belittle the new mass but after reading the texts of TLM it just seems to me like the “old” mass had deeper meaning. It was full of a sense of sacredness and mystery and is a unabashedly Catholic. I can’t wait to experience it in the flesh. ***I do have one question…when did it become the norm in the Western church that the priest would face east away from the people?***Although I am attracted to TLM I can’t deny that I feel like the OF is probably more like what the Christians experienced in the earliest masses in the catacombs and private homes…

 

[brigantine]

Which historically can be celebrated in Slavonic. Did you know that?

I’m not really sure what relevance this has to this discussion? Ok, it can be done in Slavonic.

Edit: And I’m sure it would be beautiful in Slavonic as is Saint John’s and Saint Basil’s!

 

[ncjohn]

But mine was a suburban parish with a Missa Cantata and our parish participated in the Latin responses which, if you look at them, are pretty much what the congregation says today except in Latin.

While I was present at my share of high Masses I can honestly say that I only got to experience the Missa Cantata one time. That is one experience that I would return to for at least a visit.

I can say that before 1970, one could go anywhere in the world and be able to actively participate in the EF. The same, unfortunately, cannot be said for the OF.

I think this is a point where we have a basic disagreement. I would say that outside the Missa Cantata–and I believe those were quite rare even in the day–that one could not actively participate in the EF anywhere as one in the pews. It is the biggest reason why I could not consider going back. The degree to which I feel involved in the OF liturgy and actively praising God so far surpasses any “participation” in the EF as to make the EF feel, for me, like a spectator sport. I would feel much more involved and at home in an OF Mass in a foreign language, which I have experienced many times, than in the EF Masses I experienced. Just as the argument is made that one didn’t need to know Latin to understand what was going on in the TLM, one doesn’t have to speak Spanish or Portuguese or Italian to understand what is going on in the Pauline Mass today.

I don’t begrudge anyone their preference for the EF. In fact I rejoice that it is yet another vehicle that God uses to call us in our differences. To me it isn’t about “better” at all; it is simply about which one God calls to us more clearly in. Fortunately He’s much more able to allow us our differences than we are to allow them in each other.

Peace,

 

[Layman]

Demographics might settle this matter; if modernist seminaries are near-empty and the traditional seminaries are getting more and more popular, then tradition may come to a parish near you in the next decade.

In rural Ireland I’d be happy to get a ‘speed TLM’, assuming the Mass was valid and licit. I do know that the Irish tend to speak quickly; my neighbours do it, I do it, our local N.O. priest there does it. I find I do it when reading the common Latin prayers; if you’re read it 10,000 times before it’s hard to slow down on the 10,001 time.

I would like to go to a Mass where the participants efface themselves as much as possible and the rite is conducted in a place and atmosphere of solemnity and sans distracting populist elements. The TLMs I can get to in London do this; the N.O.s in both Ireland and London don’t.

One good thing about the TLM for priests, I think, is that they’re not required to be performers. They turn their back on the congregation, face the object of devotion and proceed. I think it takes the pressure off.

I realised after over a year of going to TLM’s and keeping my head down I had a hazy idea of what the priests’ faces looked like and very little idea of their personalities. I think this is good.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

Actually, Pope Pius XII considered allowing certain parts of the Mass in the vernacular for the particular purpose of curtailing the personal devotions that were occurring during the Mass. Perhaps we’ll let him and Pope Pius X slug it out.

Do you have a quote to show that Pius XII considered allowing some vernacular in the Mass to curtail private devitions during Mass? I’m not looking for a quote that says he considered allowing some vernacular, as even Archbishop Lefebvre was in favor of that; but a quote saying the purpose was to curtain private devotions.

Here’s what Pope Pius X said about way to assist at Mass

**The Way to Assist at Mass **

15 Q: What is required in order to assist at Holy Mass well and profitably?

A: To assist at Holy Mass well and profitably two things are necessary: (1) Modesty of person and (2) Devotion of heart.

16 Q: In what does modesty of person consist?

A: Modesty of person consists especially in being modestly dressed, in observing silence and recollection and, as far as possible, in remaining kneeling, except during the time of the two Gospels which are heard standing.

17 Q: In hearing Holy Mass which is the best way to practice true devotion?

A: In hearing Holy Mass the best way to practice true devotion is the following: (1) From the very beginning to unite our intention with that of the priest, offering the Holy Sacrifice to God for the ends for which it was instituted. (2) To accompany the priest in each prayer and action of the Sacrifice. (3) To meditate on the passion and death of Jesus Christ And to heartily detest our sins, which have been the cause of them. (4) To go to Communion, or at least to make a spiritual Communion while the priest communicates.

18 Q: What is spiritual Communion?

A: Spiritual Communion is a great desire to be united sacramentally with Jesus Christ. saying, for example: “My Lord Jesus Christ, I desire with my whole heart to be united with Thee now and forever;” and then make the same acts that are to be made before and after sacramental Communion.

**19 Q: Does the recitation of the Rosary or other prayers during Mass prevent us from hearing it with profit?

A: The recitation of the Rosary and other prayers during Mass does not prevent us from hearing it with profit, provided we try as far as possible to follow the parts of the Holy Sacrifice.**

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

I almost have to laugh at the double standard of your responses here. All we hear from traditionalists is harping on every little thing that they think takes away the reverence of the Mass. Yet you have a priest rushing through the Mass so fast that his words cannot be understood and the server’s responses are totally irrelevant since they are being “walked over” and you don’t seem to think it’s a problem.

I’ve been attending the Traditonal Mass for a long time. Some Priests say the prayers faster than others, just as some people say the Rosary faster than others. I’ve noticed that Priests whose native language is Spanish often say the prayers pretty quick. However, its not an abuse, since the rubrics don’t specify the speed at which at Priest should say the prayers. Sometimes I find myself saying morning or evening prayers quick, but it doesn’t mean my mind is not engaged in what I am doing.

My point is: Today it is common for some of the most outrageous abuses and sacreliges to take place - including those that invalidate the Mass. Yet those, such as yourself, who despise the old Mass, try to pretend that similar abuses accurred in the past. But the few examples that are brought up are not abuses at all. They are, at most, a lack of reverence, but not an abuse.

So, it gets a little old hearing of the same “abuses” over and over again (the Priest said the prayers fast, etc.), in order to justify the real abuses that take place on a regular basis at the Novus Ordo.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

Then tell me, dear friend, of the sacrileges that occur on a regular basis at the Church where I attend Mass. I’m sure the good Monsignor would love to know, especially considering your acute knowledge of all things Catholic.

You defend every Tridentine Mass ever said and condemn every Pauline Mass that you’ve never witnessed. Now, which pot is calling which kettle “black?”

I never said every Novus Ordo contained abuses. I just said they happen on a regular basis. Does you Church utilize laymen to distribute communion on a regulr basis, such as daily Masses? If so, that is almost certainly an abuse that Rome has condemned. Also, if your Church refers to laymen who distribute communion as “extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist” that too is condemned.

The Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion

[154.] As has already been recalled, “the only minister who can confect the Sacrament of the Eucharist in persona Christi is a validly ordained Priest”.[254] Hence the name “minister of the Eucharist” belongs properly to the Priest alone. Moreover, also by reason of their sacred Ordination, the ordinary ministers of Holy Communion are the Bishop, the Priest and the Deacon,[255] to whom it belongs therefore to administer Holy Communion to the lay members of Christ’s faithful during the celebration of Mass. In this way their ministerial office in the Church is fully and accurately brought to light, and the sign value of the Sacrament is made complete.

[155.] In addition to the ordinary ministers there is the formally instituted acolyte, who by virtue of his institution is an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion even outside the celebration of Mass. If, moreover, reasons of real necessity prompt it, another lay member of Christ’s faithful may also be delegated by the diocesan Bishop, in accordance with the norm of law,[256] for one occasion or for a specified time, and an appropriate formula of blessing may be used for the occasion. This act of appointment, however, does not necessarily take a liturgical form, nor, if it does take a liturgical form, should it resemble sacred Ordination in any way. Finally, in special cases of an unforeseen nature, permission can be given for a single occasion by the Priest who presides at the celebration of the Eucharist.[257]

[156.]** This function is to be understood strictly according to the name by which it is known, that is to say, that of extraordinary minister of Holy Communion, and not “special minister of Holy Communion” nor “extraordinary minister of the Eucharist” nor “special minister of the Eucharist”, by which names the meaning of this function is unnecessarily and improperly broadened.**

[157.] If there is usually present a sufficient number of sacred ministers for the distribution of Holy Communion, extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion may not be appointed. Indeed, in such circumstances, those who may have already been appointed to this ministry should not exercise it. The practice of those Priests is reprobated who, even though present at the celebration, abstain from distributing Communion and hand this function over to laypersons .[258] vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

At the Traditional Mass communion is given by the Priest ONLY. There is never any need for a laymen to help out. Now, if the Preist is able to handle communion by himself at the Traditional Mass, he should be able to do so at the Novus Ordo as well. So, “extraordinary minister of holy communion” (which is NEVER required at the Traditional Mass) should be virtually non existent at the Novus Ordo. To utilize them when it is not necessary is an abuse.

So, does your Church use laymen to distribute communion on a regular basis? If so, explain how that is not an abuse.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

I think this is a point where we have a basic disagreement. I would say that outside the Missa Cantata–and I believe those were quite rare even in the day–that one could not actively participate in the EF anywhere as one in the pews. It is the biggest reason why I could not consider going back. The degree to which I feel involved in the OF liturgy and actively praising God so far surpasses any “participation” in the EF as to make the EF feel, for me, like a spectator sport.

Peace,

Let me explain how I have the exact opposite reaction. I only attend the Novus Ordo for marriage, funerals, or other reasons of necessity; but have a really hard time participating actively. But I think you and I have a different understanding of “active participation”.

When the Church uses the term “active participation” it does not refer primarily to outward activity, but to inward activity. At the Traditional Mass, I am continually engaged in praying the Mass along with the Priest. When I’ve gone to a Novus Ordo, I’ve had a more difficult time “praying the Mass”. Some people may feel like they are being “included” since the Priest is looking at them and talking to them, but for me, this was a distraction. I have compared it to trying to say the Rosary while you were looking at another person who’s looking at you. The person in front of you would be a distraction, not a help. I find the same true at the Novus Ordo.

My guess is that you never learned to pray the Mass along with the Priest when you were younger. If you had, you would never have felt a lack of “active participation”. And on the contrary, if your active participation today is primarily external activity, rather than an internal spiritual union with the Priest during the various parts of the Mass, the “external activity” is actually taking away from the true active participation you should have at Mass. And that is a common tendency of man today.

There’ a book written on this topic called Soul of The Apostolate. It describes what it calls “the heresy of good works” which is essentially external activity that does not flow from internal union with God. It is an ever-activity that actually takes us away from God - from the internal union we should have with God.

And if you consider the fruits of the Novus Ordo Mass, you can see this problem. People are bored and need to be entertained; they don’t understand what the Mass is; they lack reverence. All of these indicates that the internal union is lacking. Sure, they may stand and sit when they are supposed to; and they may shake hands with their neighbor, but do they really understand what is taking place spiritually, and are they internally engaged in this ACTION? The fruits would suggest otherwise.

You will find the contrary at the Traditional Mass. People are kneeling and engaged in prayer during the Mass. The reverence reveals that they know what is happening. Their activie participation is what it should be: primarily an internal activity.

 

[Indyann]

. To me it isn’t about “better” at all; it is simply about which one God calls to us more clearly in. Fortunately He’s much more able to allow us our differences than we are to allow them in each other.

Peace,

Amen.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Maybe it was just the Archdiocese of New Orleans that had the Missa Cantata as the “norm” for the Sunday 10am and 12pm Masses. But have them they did. As I stated, mine was a suburban parish but my wife was a member of a rural parish near Baton Rouge and a good friend of mine was in a parish in Cajun south Louisiana. Both reported growing up with the Missa Cantata.

As for active participation - at Low Mass very little. However, those same little old Italian ladies with their rosaries during Mass became a powerful active participants every Tuesday night at Novena and Benediction. They raised the roof in singing Tantum Ergo and O Salutaris and responded heartily to the Latin in the Benediction. (Which is one thing I really miss. Even at my cathedral parish, we have Benediction maybe twice a year at best).

To Ultima - I was a yeoman.

 

[ncjohn]

I’ve been attending the Traditonal Mass for a long time. Some Priests say the prayers faster than others, just as some people say the Rosary faster than others. I’ve noticed that Priests whose native language is Spanish often say the prayers pretty quick. However, its not an abuse, since the rubrics don’t specify the speed at which at Priest should say the prayers. Sometimes I find myself saying morning or evening prayers quick, but it doesn’t mean my mind is not engaged in what I am doing.

My point is: Today it is common for some of the most outrageous abuses and sacreliges to take place - including those that invalidate the Mass. Yet those, such as yourself, who despise the old Mass, try to pretend that similar abuses accurred in the past. But the few examples that are brought up are not abuses at all. They are, at most, a lack of reverence, but not an abuse.

So, it gets a little old hearing of the same “abuses” over and over again (the Priest said the prayers fast, etc.), in order to justify the real abuses that take place on a regular basis at the Novus Ordo.

Number one, I have nowhere said I “despise the old Mass” and would not say any such thing. The fact that I prefer the Pauline Mass and found the TLM’s that I attended to be lacking in reverence does not translate into despising the Mass, or even any claim that my experience was universal in any way. I have made that clear on many occasions. My friend brotherhrolf and I have had many discussions about the differences in our experiences and while we may not share preferences we have managed to still respect each other and wish for each other the devotional experiences that call to us.

Second, I’m not talking about foreign-born priests speaking quickly. I’m talking about English-speaking priests intentionally rushing through as quickly as they could to keep Mass under 15 minutes, week after week, year after year. You can try your best to defend that but it isn’t defensible. Watching a priest accept “attaboys” after Mass for a new personal record in how fast he completed the Mass was always such a gratifying experience.

And yes, there were abuses as serious as those rare true abuses that have been seen in the Pauline Masses. Words of consecration changed or totally left out. Entire parts of the Eucharistic prayer skipped. Don’t tell me they weren’t there; I served at those Masses for years and could recite all the “standard” parts by heart myself and I darn sure knew when they were being altered or skipped.

And no, real abuses don’t take place on a regular basis in the Pauline Mass, though those of you who “despise the OF Mass” continually make the same old claims that such is the case as if every Mass had Barney showing up. You can keep your rose-colored glasses on all you want about what went on in the pre-Vatican II Mass but I was there and I didn’t fall off the banana boat last night. Nor have I ever witnessed a true abuse, much less a “sacrilege” in a Pauline Mass though I have certainly seen some questionable stuff and the occasional priest who doesn’t seem to be “really present”.

I quite frankly don’t care if you dislike the Pauline Mass as it doesn’t affect my worship or devotion one bit. And I will rejoice that you can find a Mass where you feel drawn even if I don’t share your preference.

Peace be with you.