Traditional Lutherans May Form Own Denomination over Homosexuality Issue

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Jim_Dandy said:
Too bad this ELCA pastor doesn’t shed tears for the dead babies he and members of his denomination have killed or helped to kill by abortion. Late-term abortionist George Tiller was ushering at an ELCA gathering in Kansas when he was shot. *** ELCA belongs to the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Rights, which fights for the “right” to abortion on demand. *** The organization carries insurance that provides abortion services for female staff members. BTW, the Episcopal Church belongs to the RCRR also. May God have mercy.

Jim Dandy

Edit to add: I wouldn’t call them “traditional.” I wouldn’t even call them
Christian.
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The ELCA does not belong to the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Rights.

By the way, I’ve met the real Jim Dandy several times as a friend of mine has been the drummer for Black Oak Arkansas for the past several years.
 
IowaJay said:
The ELCA does not belong to the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Rights.

By the way, I’ve met the real Jim Dandy several times as a friend of mine has been the drummer for Black Oak Arkansas for the past several years.
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You are right and I am wrong. I apologize to ELCA members. I wrote that from memory, without rechecking the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice (also wrote the name of the organization wrong) membership roster. I was remembering the Lutheran Women’s Caucus. The ELCA is strongly pro-abortion, however. Thank you for the correction. Here’s the list of members:

[BTW, I didn’t know there was a real Jim Dandy. It’s an expression my grandfather used to show his appreciation – he would say “That’s real Jim Dandy!” Never heard of the band either. Thanks for sharing.]

–quote–
Conservative Judaism
Rabbinical Assembly
United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Women’s League for Conservative Judaism

Episcopal Church

Ethical Culture
American Ethical Union National Service Conference

Humanist Judaism
Society for Humanistic Judaism

Presbyterian Church (USA)

Reconstructionist Judaism
Jewish Reconstructionist Federation
Reconstructionist Rabbinical Association

Reform Judaism
Central Conference of American Rabbis
North American Federation of Temple Youth
Union for Reform Judaism
Women of Reform Judaism, The Federation of Temple Sisterhoods
Women’s Rabbinic Network of Central Conference of American Rabbis

United Church of Christ

United Methodist Church
General Board of Church and Society, United Methodist Church
General Board of Global Ministries, Women’s Division, United Methodist Church

Unitarian Universalist
Unitarian Universalist Association
Unitarian Universalist Women’s Federation
Young Religious Unitarian Universalists
Continental Unitarian Universalist Young Adult Network

Caucuses/Organizations
American Jewish Committee
American Jewish Congress
Anti-Defamation League
Catholics for Choice
Christian Lesbians Out (CLOUT)
Church of the Brethren Womaen’s Caucus
Disciples for Choice
Episcopal Urban Caucus
Episcopal Women’s Caucus
Hadassah, WZOA
Jewish Women International
Lutheran Women’s Caucus
Methodist Federation for Social Action
NA’AMAT USA
National Council of Jewish Women
Presbyterians Affirming Reproductive Options (PARO)
Women’s American ORT
YWCA of the USA
–end quote–

Needless to say (I hope!), Catholics for Choice is not a Catholic organization.

Peace y’all, Jim Dandy
 
loneviking said:
No, much as I care about my RCC siblings, what would be found would be the church that Martin Luther left in protest over!

Indulgences? Still there…

Righteousness by good works? Still there and still against Sola Fide…

Purgatory? Still there…

The Pope? Still there…

And add to that papal infallability which runs strongly counter to Sola Scriptura, and you have a theology to which there can be no return.
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That would be “true” only in your erroneous interpretation of the Scriptures Alone.

Personally, I would not be Christian if I could not be certain of the Truth of Catholic doctrine.
Otherwise, Christianity is just a guessing game. Christianity is a revealed religion. God revealed the Truth once for all (Jude 3) – no guesswork, no speculation, no opinions, just pure unadulterated Truth.

There are biblical arguments for all your objections, but I have selected only one for this response, and it will be brief: Sola Fide was “discovered” by Martin Luther early in the 16th century while he was sitting on the privy in the monastery tower reading Romans. Reference: A World Lit Only By Fire, William Manchester, Little Brown & Co., New York, 1992, p. 139. How unfortunate for the Christian world that he didn’t leave it where he found it! It was unheard of for 15 centuries. Jesus and the Apostles didn’t teach it.

We would need new threads, I think, to discuss these. And they’ve all been discussed to death at the Catholic Answers forum. But we could do it again, if you wish. Or you could just search and find the many threads where these subjects are dealt with.

Peace be with you, Jim Dandy
 
Jim_Dandy said:
The ELCA is strongly pro-abortion, however.
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I think that is an overstatement. The Churchwide Assembly of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, in 1991, formally adopted the following position on abortion:
elca.org/What-We-Believe/Social-Issues/Social-Statements/Abortion.aspx

It recognizes that abortion may be moral in some cases (rape, incest, mother’s life in danger, severe developmental abnormalities), but also immoral in other cases (viability outside the womb.) ELCA’s statement cautions about the moral gravity of abortion, regardless of stage of development.

The statement says that government has a legitimate reason to regulate abortion. However, it opposes a total ban on abortion.
 
Jim_Dandy said:
That would be “true” only in your erroneous interpretation of the Scriptures Alone.

Personally, I would not be Christian if I could not be certain of the Truth of Catholic doctrine.
Otherwise, Christianity is just a guessing game. Christianity is a revealed religion. God revealed the Truth once for all (Jude 3) – no guesswork, no speculation, no opinions, just pure unadulterated Truth.

There are biblical arguments for all your objections, but I have selected only one for this response, and it will be brief: Sola Fide was “discovered” by Martin Luther early in the 16th century while he was sitting on the privy in the monastery tower reading Romans. Reference: A World Lit Only By Fire, William Manchester, Little Brown & Co., New York, 1992, p. 139. How unfortunate for the Christian world that he didn’t leave it where he found it! It was unheard of for 15 centuries. Jesus and the Apostles didn’t teach it.

We would need new threads, I think, to discuss these. And they’ve all been discussed to death at the Catholic Answers forum. But we could do it again, if you wish. Or you could just search and find the many threads where these subjects are dealt with.

Peace be with you, Jim Dandy
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‘shrug’…I guess I missed the Biblical response despite reading the post several times. No need to post other responses as I know where the threads are. I wrote what I did as it surprises me that someone who feels as the OP does remains in the LCMS. It seemed they needed a reminder as to the issues that divided the RCC and Lutherans both then and now.

(Peace be with you)…and also with you!
 
JonNC said:
I am not defending the ELCA’s postion on abortion, but it is worth pointing out that some of the biggest abortion supporters - Pelosi, Kerry, et al - are Catholic. They are fighting to make the large pool of tax payer funds - yours and mine - available for folks like the late “Dr.” Tiller to continue their mayhem. It is a glass house situation.

Where you are right, is that the ELCA’s leadership and some of its policies have are evidence that it ceases to be confessional Lutheran, there there are many many people in the ELCA who still are.

Jon
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I don’t understand why they don’t just join the LCMS. 🤷
 
loneviking said:
No, much as I care about my RCC siblings, what would be found would be the church that Martin Luther left in protest over!

Indulgences? Still there…

Righteousness by good works? Still there and still against Sola Fide…

Purgatory? Still there…

The Pope? Still there…

And add to that papal infallability which runs strongly counter to Sola Scriptura, and you have a theology to which there can be no return.
Click to expand...
yes, it is still there. it was stablished by Christ and not man, so it will stay this way until Christ comes in Glory. as for your religion wihtout valid ordination, you have to make a name for yourselves. ML cannot ordain anybody.
 
Jim_Dandy said:
You are right and I am wrong. I apologize to ELCA members. I wrote that from memory, without rechecking the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice (also wrote the name of the organization wrong) membership roster. I was remembering the Lutheran Women’s Caucus. The ELCA is strongly pro-abortion, however. Thank you for the correction. Here’s the list of members:

[BTW, I didn’t know there was a real Jim Dandy. It’s an expression my grandfather used to show his appreciation – he would say “That’s real Jim Dandy!” Never heard of the band either. Thanks for sharing.]

–quote–
Conservative Judaism
Rabbinical Assembly
United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Women’s League for Conservative Judaism

Episcopal Church

Ethical Culture
American Ethical Union National Service Conference

Humanist Judaism
Society for Humanistic Judaism

Presbyterian Church (USA)

Reconstructionist Judaism
Jewish Reconstructionist Federation
Reconstructionist Rabbinical Association

Reform Judaism
Central Conference of American Rabbis
North American Federation of Temple Youth
Union for Reform Judaism
Women of Reform Judaism, The Federation of Temple Sisterhoods
Women’s Rabbinic Network of Central Conference of American Rabbis

United Church of Christ

United Methodist Church
General Board of Church and Society, United Methodist Church
General Board of Global Ministries, Women’s Division, United Methodist Church

Unitarian Universalist
Unitarian Universalist Association
Unitarian Universalist Women’s Federation
Young Religious Unitarian Universalists
Continental Unitarian Universalist Young Adult Network

Caucuses/Organizations
American Jewish Committee
American Jewish Congress
Anti-Defamation League
Catholics for Choice
Christian Lesbians Out (CLOUT)
Church of the Brethren Womaen’s Caucus
Disciples for Choice
Episcopal Urban Caucus
Episcopal Women’s Caucus
Hadassah, WZOA
Jewish Women International
Lutheran Women’s Caucus
Methodist Federation for Social Action
NA’AMAT USA
National Council of Jewish Women
Presbyterians Affirming Reproductive Options (PARO)
Women’s American ORT
YWCA of the USA
–end quote–

Needless to say (I hope!), Catholics for Choice is not a Catholic organization.

Peace y’all, Jim Dandy
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Thank you to Jim Dandy for this tidbit, a real sign of the times for some denominations.👍
 
I rearranged the list of churches and / or organizations that are anti-life and approve of abortion on demand.

Catholics for Choice is on the list, they were excommunicated fourteen years ago by a bishop in Nebraska.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholics_for_Choice

From the article:

“Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz of Lincoln, Nebraska issued an interdict in March 1996 forbidding Catholics within his diocese from membership in twelve organizations, operating locally, where membership is described as “…always perilous to the Catholic Faith and most often is totally incompatible…”, in a letter of formal canonical warning published in the diocesan newspaper, the Southern Nebraska Register. Catholics for Choice was the last of the twelve organizations. Members of the diocese were given one month from the date of the interdict to remove themselves from participation in the named organizations or face automatic excommunication.”

“Conservative groups such as the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights and the Catholic News Agency have described the organization as Anti-Catholic.”

The rearranged list:

American Jewish Committee, American Jewish Congress,Conservative, Judaism, Rabbinical Assembly, United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, Women’s League for Conservative Judaism, Humanist Judaism, Society for Humanistic Judaism, Reconstructionist Judaism, Jewish Reconstructionist Federation, Reconstructionist Rabbinical Association, Reform Judaism, Central Conference of American Rabbis, North American Federation of Temple Youth, Union for Reform Judaism, National Council of Jewish Women, Women of Reform Judaism, The Federation of Temple Sisterhoods, Women’s Rabbinic Network of Central Conference of American Rabbis, Jewish Women International, Hadassah, WZOA, NA’AMAT USA

Episcopal Church, Episcopal Urban Caucus, Episcopal Women’s Caucus

Presbyterian Church (USA) & Presbyterians Affirming Reproductive Options (PARO)

United Church of Christ

United Methodist Church & General Board of Church and Society, United Methodist Church & General Board of Global Ministries, Women’s Division, United Methodist Church, Methodist Federation for Social Action

Unitarian Universalist & Unitarian Universalist Association & Unitarian Universalist Women’s Federation, Young Religious Unitarian Universalists &Continental Unitarian Universalist Young Adult Network

American Ethical Union National Service Conference
Anti-Defamation League
Catholics for Choice
Christian Lesbians Out (CLOUT)
Church of the Brethren Women’s Caucus
Disciples for Choice
Ethical Culture
Lutheran Women’s Caucus
Women’s American ORT
YWCA of the USA
 
Jim_Dandy said:
Too bad this ELCA pastor doesn’t shed tears for the dead babies he and members of his denomination have killed or helped to kill by abortion. Late-term abortionist George Tiller was ushering at an ELCA gathering in Kansas when he was shot. ELCA belongs to the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Rights, which fights for the “right” to abortion on demand. The organization carries insurance that provides abortion services for female staff members. BTW, the Episcopal Church belongs to the RCRR also. May God have mercy.

Jim Dandy

Edit to add: I wouldn’t call them “traditional.” I wouldn’t even call them
Christian.
Click to expand...
How could you possibly know this? This is listed somewhere from a reputable source??
 
Catholic_Press said:
MINNEAPOLIS | The Rev. Richard Mahan cried last summer inside a Minneapolis convention hall when delegates for the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America voted to allow openly practicing gays to be pastors.

More…
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I don’t understand forming a new denom when an anti-gay-pastor Lutheran denom already exists, the LCMS.
 
1234,

I found this site titled: “Vatican affirms excommunication of Call to Action members in Lincoln”.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0606995.htm

From the article:

"Although the Vatican letter only dealt with Call to Action, the other groups named by Bishop Bruskewitz were: Planned Parenthood, Society of St. Pius X, Hemlock Society, St. Michael the Archangel Chapel, Freemasons, Job’s Daughters, DeMolay, Eastern Star, Rainbow Girls and Catholics for a Free Choice.

The Hemlock Society works to legalize physician-assisted suicide, and Planned Parenthood and Catholics for a Free Choice both support keeping abortion legal.

Job’s Daughters, DeMolay, Eastern Star and Rainbow Girls all are affiliated with the Masons. The Society of St. Pius X and St. Michael the Archangel Chapel both oppose the liturgical reforms of the Second Vatican Council and celebrate Mass in the Tridentine rite."
 
Dale_M said:
I think that is an overstatement. The Churchwide Assembly of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, in 1991, formally adopted the following position on abortion:
elca.org/What-We-Believe/Social-Issues/Social-Statements/Abortion.aspx

It recognizes that abortion may be moral in some cases (rape, incest, mother’s life in danger, severe developmental abnormalities), but also immoral in other cases (viability outside the womb.) ELCA’s statement cautions about the moral gravity of abortion, regardless of stage of development.

The statement says that government has a legitimate reason to regulate abortion. However, it opposes a total ban on abortion.
Click to expand...
The ELCA’s position is that children may be killed for the sins of their fathers (rape, incest). “Severe developmental abnormalities” – caused by the mother’s abuse of drugs or alcohol? By genetics? Doctors can’t know the actual condition of the child until he/she is born, Let’s wait until birth, then kill the baby if he/she doesn’t meet our standards or will be too much of a financial and personal burden on the parents and on society.😛 We’ve moved from abortion to infanticide with partial birth abortion. George Tiller, an usher at an ELCA assembly in Kansas, killed babies viable outside the womb – nearly ready for birth – they would have lived had the ELCA member in good standing not killed them… It’s the same child that is killed, at six weeks gestation or nine months, inside or outside the womb. The deliberate killing of innocent children is never moral.

We of European ancestry are contracepting and aborting ourselves into oblivion. Europe is dying and we’re not far behind – illegal immigration has saved the grey-haired U.S.A…

Save the baby humans! The Muslims win – it’s a numbers game.

God creates, man kills. Thou shalt not kill.

Jim Dandy
 
Jim_Dandy said:
The correct comparison is the teaching of the Catholic Church (adamantly pro-life) vs. the teaching of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (radically and adamantly pro-abortion).

A Church should not be judged by those who dissent from its teaching, but by the content of its teaching.

As you point out, there are dissenters in both organizations.

According to the LCMS webiste, there are 250 kinds of Lutherans worldwide, so what is “confessional Lutheran”?

All the best, Jim Dandy
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And all my best to you, Jim. Always a pleasure to converse with you.

Perhaps it is well to point out that Lutheranism is not hierarchical in polity, which can be confusing for a Catholic. That said, confessional Lutherans will adhere primarily to the Augsburg Confession and the Small Catechism, and to varying degrees the balance of the Book of Concord. I dare say that I could go to most any Lutheran parish worldwide and be welcomed at the altar.

there are some Lutherans, however, that have veered from the confessional teachings of the Lutheran confessions, for whatever reason - female clergy, altar and pulpit fellowship with Reformed and other Protestant communions, and some other reasons.

Jon
 
Originally Posted by Jim Dandy
Too bad this ELCA pastor doesn’t shed tears for the dead babies he and members of his denomination have killed or helped to kill by abortion. Late-term abortionist George Tiller was ushering at an ELCA gathering in Kansas when he was shot. ELCA belongs to the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Rights, which fights for the “right” to abortion on demand. The organization carries insurance that provides abortion services for female staff members. BTW, the Episcopal Church belongs to the RCRR also. May God have mercy.
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Jim Dandy
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Edit to add: I wouldn’t call them “traditional.” I wouldn’t even call them
Christian.
Click to expand...
Colette_Maria said:
How could you possibly know this? This is listed somewhere from a reputable source??
Click to expand...
George Tiller, M.D., late-term abortionist:

elca.org/Who-We-Are/Our-Three-Expressions/Churchwide-Organization/Office-of-the-Presiding-Bishop/Messages-and-Statements/090601.aspx

catholicism.about.com/b/2009/05/31/late-term-abortionist-george-tiller-murdered.htm

There are several more articles about Tiller on the Net – just google George Tiller ELCA.

I was mistaken about ELCA belonging to the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Freedom. I posted the RCRF membership roster a couple of posts above this one.

The information about the ELCA insurance abortion coverage came from a former ELCA pastor, Patricia Sodano Ireland, who left the ELCA and became a Catholic. She wrote: “The more Catholic I became, the less confessionally and morally sound became the ELCA. What came to be a semi-scrapped but well publicized document on sexuality, audaciously pronounced that the nearly two-thousand-year-old teaching on loving the sinner and hating the sin was passé. The ELCA’s Lutheran magazine featured positive stories on heterosexual and homosexual lifestyles and dubbed certain instances of abortion as a tragic choice.. Worst of all was the ELCA’s insurance plan, which provided coverage for abortion.” *There We Stood, Here We Stand, 11 Lutherans Rediscover Their Catholic Roots, *Timothy Drake, 2001, p. 89.

Thanks for asking!

Jim Dandy
 
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