"Traditional" or More Reverent?

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mikellie

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I’m way too young to know the Tridentine Mass first hand. I’ve been raised by very devout Catholic parents. I was never taught that the current mass was invalid or improper.

I understand the challenges raised by so-called traditionalists. In fact, I’m not sure if I am a “traditionalist” or not. I’m a Catholic.

I get the sense that many in my generation yearn for something more “reverent” as opposed to the actual Tridentine Mass. Let me be clear that I am not opposed to it. I think the current mass is fine, too. I think the problem lies in the fact that too many Catholics are ignorant of their faith. They do not learn enough about the Real Presence and the purpose of the mass. The mass has turned into a social gathering and for some entertainment. Selfish behavior abounds, whether it be the priest, choir or congregation. Too many come for the show or because they feel they must.

We’ve turned it into a 1 hour maximum commitment and then we leave.

(I will say that I’d bet the problem of ignorant Catholics existed before the 1960’s. In fact, I am sure too many Catholics were too ritualistic and not practicing the Christian faith by living it. I think there are challenges for both time periods.)

I’m most concerned with the irreverence and the hi-jacking of our faith by liberals. Some of it stems from protestant competition and influence, but most of it is coming from arrogance selfishness disguised as “rugged individualism”.

Why don’t more Catholics realize that the Sacrifice of the Mass transcends all time and is not a new sacrifice? The mass is directly linked to the Sacrifice of Jesus. (Do most even know that the mass is a Sacrifice?)
 
A recent example of what I felt was improper:

My local parish is run by the Oblates of St. Francis DeSales. They have all tended to be liberal. I appreciate the message of helping others. But at one mass, the priest introduced Megan McKenna. She is a “Catholic” author and she began to preach for nearly 30 minutes. She wore a purple scarf around her neck, as if it were a stole.

I was extremely turned off. She claimed that for missionary purposes, priests are allowed to have others address the congregation once or twice per year. Even if this is correct, it felt weird and I didn’t like it.
 
They don’t know the Mass is a sacrifice because it isn’t taught to them. It would take hours to discuss all the issues contributing to the watering down of our Faith, but many of them are discussed here at various threads in this forum. There were “unintended consequences” as well as “intended consequences” in recent decades.

I do wish those who were not around 40 or 50 years ago would not presume to know what the Church was like then. The problems were the exception. Some of us were there to see with our own eyes!
 
People always believe the current generation is weaker and worse than the generations preceding it. In some respects this may be true, but I can guarantee that the Church faced plenty of challenges prior to Vatican II. What we have now is a different problem.

You can liken it to foreign affairs and politics. In your generation was threatened by communism. Many in my generation seem to have forgotten how grave a threat it was.

However, my generation is facing new/different threats. These could seem to be worse than those in the 20th century, but that’s because we are living in the present. Everything looks different 40-50 years out.

You don’t have to see something with your own eyes to know about it or believe in it.
 
I’m afraid it’s a combination of my generation - the “hippie” generation:o - and some of the generation on either side of that that insinuated a number of seeming protestant-like ideas in the mass and unfortunately were not big on Catholic catechesis either, however I keep hearing some very promising things said by numerous different Catholic personalities (radio especially) that the generation that’s just reaching their majority and going into seminary are very devout and orthodox.🙂
 
The liberals in the Church are the result of the 1960’s and most of them are getting old. The future is bright for the Church as the majority of young priests are very orthodox. The traditional seminaries such as the FSSP are also extremely popular. Liberal seminaries are closing and traditionalist orthodox seminaries are opening.

The Tridentine Mass is beautiful and is more reverent than the Pauline Mass in my opinion. I recognise that not everyone likes this Mass but I strongly recommend it. On the whole, priests who celebrate the Tridentine Mass are very orthodox in their beliefs. Even if they are not, they wouldn’t try to spout their liberal agenda during a Tridentine Mass because they know that the congregation would be far from receptive.

People who are opposed to the Tridentine Mass will say that the only people who are interested this Mass are older people. This is not true. I am a young person (21) and I attend the Tridentine Mass every week. I will be attending this Mass for the rest of my life.

If you learn about the Tridentine Mass and come to understand how rich in spirituality it is, you will love it. The symbolism of the Tridentine Mass is profound. Every gesture and act has a meaning. The prayers of the Tridentine Mass are beautiful, and they express Catholic belief perfectly. Every Catholic should experience this Mass at least once in their life time. Do some research before you go and you will be able to understand the deep meaning of everything.
 
How can anyone read the text of the New Mass and even make a remote connection to the Holy Sacrifice? The only mention of a sacrifice comes after the collection so what’s one to think?
 
BobP123 said:
How can anyone read the text of the New Mass and even make a remote connection to the Holy Sacrifice? The only mention of a sacrifice comes after the collection so what’s one to think?
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You shouldn’t say this.

The “New Mass” is approved by our Church, including our Pope.

You can certainly voice your opinion, i.e., “You personally don’t see any connection of New Mass and sacrifice.”

But to imply that there is no connection is just wrong of you. A young person started this thread. It is wrong of you to teach them to despise what our Church has made the Ordinary Form.

I can testify that as a convert to Catholicism from evangelical Protestantism, I knew from the beginning of the Mass that the NO is a Holy Sacrifice, even with no background whatsoever about Catholicism other than a few grade school readers (Streets and Roads, More Streets and Roads) that my parents had brought home from a yard sale when I was little.
 
mikellie said:
People always believe the current generation is weaker and worse than the generations preceding it. In some respects this may be true, but I can guarantee that the Church faced plenty of challenges prior to Vatican II. What we have now is a different problem.

You can liken it to foreign affairs and politics. In your generation was threatened by communism. Many in my generation seem to have forgotten how grave a threat it was.

However, my generation is facing new/different threats. These could seem to be worse than those in the 20th century, but that’s because we are living in the present. Everything looks different 40-50 years out.

You don’t have to see something with your own eyes to know about it or believe in it.
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Mikellie,
First of all welcome to the board. I am very impressed with your posts. You are obviously a highly intelligent and thoughtful individual who wishes to feel closer to God during the Mass. you also appear to be aware of the historical and cultural/sociatal aspects of the problem. Something I struggle with all the time.

If you have concerns about the legitimacy of anything going on in the liturgy, ask the question here at CAF. There are many who will be able to answer based on Canon Law.

As to your desires. First of all I would suggest you look for a Tridentine mass in your area and attend. Since you are too young to remember the Old Latin Rite, be sure to aquire a good missal. (I actually bought one off of e-bay). I believe you will be impressed by the old liturgy and want to share it with others. Also talk about it among your local parish friends and see if there is other interest.

Make your concerns known about the current liturgy in your parish. If there are things that bother you, make a statement. For instance, where we go people stand part of the time that the tabernacle door is open (ours is visible to the right of the altar). I find this wrong and will not stand or sit while this door is open. Except of course when we go up to recieve communion, and then I genuflect as I pass in front of it. I have seen no one else do this but I do.

If you have the oportunity, I highly recommend watching the mass shown on EWTN. It is not the old rite, but very reverent. If you don’t get it on cable (it is on Dishnet channel 261) check the website. I believe you can get a live feed on the internet. I know I have done it with other programs.

Sorry for going on so, I guess what it boils down to is:
  1. You are perfecty right that there are big issues to resolve.
  2. Demonstrate your commitment to greater reverence at Mass
  3. Learn about other forms available.
  4. Talk to others about your concerns in charity and love.
May God Bless you on your Journey

James
 
As to your desires. First of all I would suggest you look for a Tridentine mass in your area and attend. Since you are too young to remember the Old Latin Rite, be sure to aquire a good missal. (I actually bought one off of e-bay). I believe you will be impressed by the old liturgy and want to share it with others. Also talk about it among your local parish friends and see if there is other interest.
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I second this suggestion. If you take the time and effort to learn about the Tridentine Mass then I know that you will love it.

Read “The Holy Mass” by Dom Prosper Gueranger. It is a small book that will teach you all you need to know about the Tridentine Mass. It’s very easy reading and it is very easy to understand. You can purchase it from Baronius Press website.

If you go to the Tridentine Mass without learning about it first, you may not appreciate all that is happening and become bored. For this reason I would advise you to watch some Tridentine Masses on youtube:

uk.youtube.com/watch?v=R6AOvStZS64

This one is great because Archbishop Fulton Sheen provides commentary.

A lot of people will try to dissuade you from attending a Tridentine Mass. I know that when I first started going to this Mass, most of the Catholics that I met expressed nothing but negativity. To love the Tridentine Mass does not make you a schismatic or a radical. Always remember that this is how the Saints worshipped for fifteen centuries.
 
mikellie said:
I’m way too young to know the Tridentine Mass first hand. I’ve been raised by very devout Catholic parents. I was never taught that the current mass was invalid or improper.

I. . . .

Why don’t more Catholics realize that the Sacrifice of the Mass transcends all time and is not a new sacrifice? The mass is directly linked to the Sacrifice of Jesus. (Do most even know that the mass is a Sacrifice?)
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right so why don’t they realize this, and stop making heretical statements, especially to the young, saying’ “the current Mass is invalid and improper.” It is not. The ordindary form of the Mass is a gift of the Church, and entirely valid and proper. anyone who says otherwise is teaching heresy.

the extraordinary from is also valid and proper, and it never ceased to be so. People who make your attendance at either form of the Mass a bone of contention or a test of true faith are ill-informed at best and malicious at worst.
 
puzzleannie said:
right so why don’t they realize this, and stop making heretical statements, especially to the young, saying’ “the current Mass is invalid and improper.” It is not. The ordindary form of the Mass is a gift of the Church, and entirely valid and proper. anyone who says otherwise is teaching heresy.

the extraordinary from is also valid and proper, and it never ceased to be so. People who make your attendance at either form of the Mass a bone of contention or a test of true faith are ill-informed at best and malicious at worst.
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Unfortunately, many cannot since they are blinded to the facts because of what they have been taught. There is dissent on both sides and, in my opinion, dissenters cannot see their dissent as dissent. I expanded on this more in a similar threat in this forum.
 
Dempsey1919 said:
The liberals in the Church are the result of the 1960’s and most of them are getting old. The future is bright for the Church as the majority of young priests are very orthodox. The traditional seminaries such as the FSSP are also extremely popular. Liberal seminaries are closing and traditionalist orthodox seminaries are opening.

People who are opposed to the Tridentine Mass will say that the only people who are interested this Mass are older people. This is not true. I am a young person (21) and I attend the Tridentine Mass every week. I will be attending this Mass for the rest of my life.
.
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Another observation is this…
The NO is now termed the ordinary form, and the TLM is termed the extraordinary form. The problem is not defining the later. It is the former, and the wide spread disappearance of what was meant to be the NO. Many good priests who are fond of the NO admit that it is not celebrated correctly.
so
The resurgance of the TLM might, just might, force or encourage more priests to start celebrating the NO correctly.

Call all those harmful “norms” what they are - abuses.

Any day now, the Pope will be issuing another statement.

He is NOT happy with the disobedience of many of his bishops concerning the return of free use of the TLM.

.
 
Reverence is not determined by which form of the mass is said. It is an internal dispostition and comes from proper catechesis. For many years religious education has suffered but that is turning around. I would venture to say that within a few more years you will see a change in peoples disposition at mass as more understand what it’s about and why they are there. Patience God knows what he’s doing.
 
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