Traditional Orders

[austinm]

I became a member of the Dominican Third Order many years ago. Then moved to an area where there was no Dominican presence at all. Lost touch But I stoll use the traditional Dominican rosary, wear my Dominican Cross to Mass, prefer the Dominican Rite. However, I am now an Anglo-Catholic.

Am I allowed to still be a Dominican Third Order member?
Thanks
austinm

 

[ServantPD]

I think that goes a bit to the decision of your Superior that you were in contact with before moving. I don’t think the lack of Dominican presence should discourage you, but you should rather work in order for the Dominican presence in that area that started by yourself to expand. That’s how St. Dominic started

And what do you mean by Anglo-Catholic?

 

[austinm]

Anglo-Catholic = Episcopalian

Lots of American variations of Episcopal Church…

Low Church…moderate High…High Church.

High Episcopal is very much like Roman Catholic…bells, incense, etc. …the works.
Belief in the :True Presence" in the Eucharist, honor to BVM, St Joseph, etc.

 

[Othmar]

Anglo-Catholic = Episcopalian

Lots of American variations of Episcopal Church…

Low Church…moderate High…High Church.

High Episcopal is very much like Roman Catholic…bells, incense, etc. …the works.
Belief in the :True Presence" in the Eucharist, honor to BVM, St Joseph, etc.

It’s a bit more complicated than that, with all the schisms and the continuing Anglican churches. There’s also the Anglo-Papalists, who prefer to use the English Missal or the Novus Ordo.

 

[austinm]

Thanks, but I do not like the Novus Ordo. I prefer Mass in the traditional Dominican Rite, in Latin, of course.
You may think I am a reactionary, I am! I think vatican II wast he worst thing ever to happen to the traditional Order of Preachers…loss of Dominican Rite, Rituals, Gregorian Chant, 800 years of Dominican traditions down the tube.
I don’t think today’s O.P. novices have any appreciation of what :“regular observance” means…solemn silence? chanting the entire Office of the day? silence at meals? the “venia”? chapter of faults? Probably never heard of these.
Too bad! Sad! I don’t think St Dominic would recognize the Order he founded.

 

[Nils]

You may be bitter, but I do not think you could consider your self as a member of that order anymore since you broke with the Church. Pray to St. Dominic, I am sure that he will find a way back for you.

There are still traditional Dominicans out there. I know of a group in France for example…

May God bless you!

 

[austinm]

Thank you, Nils. Very kind of you. Yeah, have to admit to some biterness. God bless. Austin

 

[Othmar]

Thanks, but I do not like the Novus Ordo. I prefer Mass in the traditional Dominican Rite, in Latin, of course.
You may think I am a reactionary, I am! I think vatican II wast he worst thing ever to happen to the traditional Order of Preachers…loss of Dominican Rite, Rituals, Gregorian Chant, 800 years of Dominican traditions down the tube.
I don’t think today’s O.P. novices have any appreciation of what :“regular observance” means…solemn silence? chanting the entire Office of the day? silence at meals? the “venia”? chapter of faults? Probably never heard of these.
Too bad! Sad! I don’t think St Dominic would recognize the Order he founded.

I can agree with that, but I do wonder whether the Episcopal Church, with it’s female clergy and rather modern liturgy, is the answer.

 

[austinm]

Yup…you hit the nail on the head. I am not at all “comfortable” with female “priests”

Not even sure that they are validly ordained. I go only to a male priest’s Mass.

Thanks! God bless!

 

[JReducation]

I became a member of the Dominican Third Order many years ago. Then moved to an area where there was no Dominican presence at all. Lost touch But I stoll use the traditional Dominican rosary, wear my Dominican Cross to Mass, prefer the Dominican Rite. However, I am now an Anglo-Catholic.

Am I allowed to still be a Dominican Third Order member?
Thanks
austinm

If by Anglo-Catholic you mean Anglican or Episcopalian, the answer is no. No one who apostatized from the Catholic Church can remain in a Catholic religious order. While it is true that the Lay Dominicans are not consecrated religious, they are still part of a canonically erected religious institute and association of the Christian faithful.

Once they make perpetual profession, they remain members of their institutes until they die or they ask to be released by the proper authorities of the institute. In lay orders, the proper authority is usually the local or regional council. Moving across the globe does not disconnect a professed member of an order from his order or release him from his obligations. He’s only released from those obligations that he cannot reasonably fulfill, such as fraternal life. Everything else remains in place.

The most important part of that whole, which remains in place, is full communion with the Bishop of Rome. The Ordinariate has full communion. They’re not Anglo-Catholics. They’re former Anglicans who are now Catholic. This keeping up these terms is a cultural thing, not a canonical identification. Canon Law recognizes Latin, Chaldean, Melkite, Maronite and other Catholics. Anglo is not on that list.

There is a group of Anglicans that refers to itself as Anglo-Catholic. That group is not in full communion with Rome. I’m not sure that it’s in full communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury either.

If you are no longer in full communion with the Pope, then you are automatically dismissed from the order, regardless of which order it is. Orders do not cross over.

For example, there is a Franciscan Third Order that calls itself ecumenical. There is no such thing, because it has never been recognized by Church authorities. It’s Protestant. The order was erected by the Catholic Church for Catholics, not for non-Catholics. The Dominicans are a different order, but they came out of the same group as the Secular Franciscans. It was the penitential movement, which gradually split by association with Dominicans and Franciscans. The Church canonically erected them and its members are strictly Catholic only.

 

[JReducation]

Thanks, but I do not like the Novus Ordo. I prefer Mass in the traditional Dominican Rite, in Latin, of course.
You may think I am a reactionary, I am! I think vatican II wast he worst thing ever to happen to the traditional Order of Preachers…loss of Dominican Rite, Rituals, Gregorian Chant, 800 years of Dominican traditions down the tube.
I don’t think today’s O.P. novices have any appreciation of what :“regular observance” means…solemn silence? chanting the entire Office of the day? silence at meals? the “venia”? chapter of faults? Probably never heard of these.
Too bad! Sad! I don’t think St Dominic would recognize the Order he founded.

You do remember from your formation that the Dominicans are mendicants. These things that you’re describing were never part of the original mendicant life. The mendicants were an interesting and novel phenomenon in the Church. They were neither monks nor canons or laymen.

The Carmelites, Franciscans and Augustinians were fortunate, because their founders left them a rule of life that described how they were to live. Dominic never wrote a rule of life just for the Order of Preachers. He gave them the Rule of St. Augustine and in his constitutions, he adapted the rule of Augustine, which is monastic, for the mendicant life. Constitutions are only binding until the next general chapter rewrites them and the pope approves the revision.

Whatever was in Augustine’s rule that bound the Augustinians, does not necessarily bind the Dominicans. The general chapter is free to adapt the rule of Augustine. Over the centuries there were many adaptations. Many elements of monastic life were incorporated into the life of the Dominicans and some were abandoned. It has always been like a revolving door. The friars adapt according to the needs of the time and ministry.

There is no specific Dominican tradition as there is a Franciscan, Carmelite, Augustinian or Benedictine. The reason is that Dominic did not want his friars to be locked into a structure that they could not change according to their culture, time, place, needs and ministry.

Whether one likes or does not like the changes, the fact is that the things that you’re describing, while very beautiful are not necessary for the Dominican life as Dominic envisioned it. Many of these customs were adopted as the friars became less itinerant and more conventual. It was an adaptation to time and place. This continues and will continue until the Second Coming.

 

[R_C]

However, I am now an Anglo-Catholic.

What have you done? :crying:

 

[ServantPD]

Anglo-Catholic = Episcopalian

What?! Why would you even do that?

 

[Celtic_Maiden]

Thanks, but I do not like the Novus Ordo. I prefer Mass in the traditional Dominican Rite, in Latin, of course.
You may think I am a reactionary, I am! I think vatican II wast he worst thing ever to happen to the traditional Order of Preachers…loss of Dominican Rite, Rituals, Gregorian Chant, 800 years of Dominican traditions down the tube.
I don’t think today’s O.P. novices have any appreciation of what :“regular observance” means…solemn silence? chanting the entire Office of the day? silence at meals? the “venia”? chapter of faults? Probably never heard of these.
Too bad! Sad! I don’t think St Dominic would recognize the Order he founded.

St Dominic would not have left the Catholic Church for something he did not like , that is what Luther and all the other denominations did, Obedience is what is called for, we don’t go to Mass to satisfy ourselves, in what ever form it is in, we go to Mass to GIVE glory to God not to satisfy ourselves, we go to Serve the Lord, if it troubled you that much you could go to the Novus Ordo and when possible go to a Tridentine Mass , failing that you could get a Tridentine Mass on U Tube and go to the Novus Ordo for Sunday and Days of Obligation and week days if you had wanted.
But instead you left the Catholic Church, so you are no longer a Catholic, the Spirit moved Vatican 11 to go with the Novus Ordo, Christ is still consecrated in the Host and Wine, unlike the Anglican in what form you have changed to , Episcopalian, Anglican, there Orders are not valid not even for the men because they broke from Rome and wanted nothing to do with Rome, so what you are receiving might what you think the bells and whistles, but along with bread and wine, nothing more , nothing less, NO EURCHARIST. They don’t have the power to consecrate. Read the Church Fathers, would they fit in to what you have changed to, sorry to say you have excommunicated yourself because you have divorced yourself by your own doing from Rome. Think hard and fast
eternity is long, and you wont be telling the Lord there what your likes or dislikes are because they will be what "He wants them to be. PRAISE THE LORD.

 

[Zekariya]

You are an apostate from the Catholic Church. Go to confession with a Catholic priest and rejoin Communion with Rome and adhere to the Catholic Faith. Afterwards, you will be forgiven and will no longer be an apostate.

 

[Bergon]

Thanks, but I do not like the Novus Ordo. I prefer Mass in the traditional Dominican Rite, in Latin, of course.
You may think I am a reactionary, I am! I think vatican II wast he worst thing ever to happen to the traditional Order of Preachers…loss of Dominican Rite, Rituals, Gregorian Chant, 800 years of Dominican traditions down the tube.
I don’t think today’s O.P. novices have any appreciation of what :“regular observance” means…solemn silence? chanting the entire Office of the day? silence at meals? the “venia”? chapter of faults? Probably never heard of these.
Too bad! Sad! I don’t think St Dominic would recognize the Order he founded.

I do not understand. How can you complain about legitimate changes approved by the Church when you have left the Church? There’s some contradiction in there.

 

[TimothyH]

Austin, It would be wise to listen to Brother JR.

He is the Father Superior of a Franciscan community with eleven years training in Rome under men such as Cardinal Ratzinger and holds Doctorate in Mystical Theology. The man speaks authoritatively on matters directly related to your question.

I can only add Austin, if anything can be added, that the fact that the you are here on CAF asking the question shows that there is something moving your heart. You have to ask yourself where that movement is coming from and where it is trying to take you, and pray on it. Pray that God’s will be done in all things.

Good luck to you Austin and I hope you are at peace. Please pray for me that I find peace as well. I’m struggling a bit right now.

-Tim-

 

[april32010]

I do not understand. How can you complain about legitimate changes approved by the Church when you have left the Church? There’s some contradiction in there.

ya think ?

 

[R_C]

You are an apostate from the Catholic Church. Go to confession with a Catholic priest and rejoin Communion with Rome and adhere to the Catholic Faith. Afterwards, you will be forgiven and will no longer be an apostate.

As Ignatius of Antioch wrote in AD 110:

For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ.

For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop.

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.

 

[R_C]

I think vatican II wast he worst thing ever to happen to the traditional…

I think Vatican II is an Ecumenical Council of Holy Mother Church and I think that St. Dominic, by virtue of his Solemn Vow of Obedience, would (and does) bend the knee at God’s will and trusts in the never-failing guidance of the Holy Spirit.