Traditional Practice and Conformity (Kneeling During the Agnus Dei?)

[Malcolm_McLean]

losangelesmission

The war of words has not been one-sided. Father Tran has used the parish bulletin to rebuke the traditionalists in his parish and warn any sympathizers. In a parish bulletin dated February 19, Father Tran informed parishioners that refusal to obey the new norms for standing rather than kneeling “particularly … after the ‘Lamb of God’ and at the ‘Final Blessing’” established by Bishop Brown is “totally wrong and a serious matter/sin: intentional disobedience not simply to the local Bishop, but also to Rome, and ultimately to God.”

These are not Conformists.

No, but this sort of thing is unlikely to do much good. We do not have a system whereby parishioner choose their priests, and on balance that is a good thing. If a priest has the right to set the norms for posture, and I don’t know or particularly care what canon law says on the matter, then the parishioners must accept that. Mass isn’t the place for making points.

 

[CatholicNick]

No, but this sort of thing is unlikely to do much good. We do not have a system whereby parishioner choose their priests, and on balance that is a good thing. If a priest has the right to set the norms for posture, and I don’t know or particularly care what canon law says on the matter, then the parishioners must accept that. Mass isn’t the place for making points.

If your priest told you to jump about during the Consecration, would you do so?

The traditionalists in this case, are not the ones making points…

 

[Walking_Home]

No, but this sort of thing is unlikely to do much good. We do not have a system whereby parishioner choose their priests, and on balance that is a good thing. If a priest has the right to set the norms for posture, and I don’t know or particularly care what canon law says on the matter, then the parishioners must accept that. Mass isn’t the place for making points.

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We must remember that no priest or bishop stands on his own. They are responsible to Rome—otherwise–we have no Pope–just a figurehead. A priest or bishop–who takes it upon himself to cut the people from the rights that Rome has authorized --is demonstrating by this act—that they are the authority --above Rome.

 

[chevalier]

I’ve never seen a mass in Poland (pauline) without kneeling from immediately after Agnus Dei to communion in my whole life. The moment the Agnus Dei chant ends, at “give us peace”, people kneel down. “This is the lamb of God,” is said to a kneeling congregation. We have two such moments: transsubstantiation (after Hosannah till a little after, “in the memory of me”) and then this. Seeing people sit through it (abroad) for the first time was a shock to me.

 

[AJV]

If your priest told you to jump about during the Consecration, would you do so?

The traditionalists in this case, are not the ones making points…

I am not defending the descision of the priest, but the comparison between jumping about at the Consecration and standing instead of kneeling is not equivalent.

 

[Uxor]

No, but this sort of thing is unlikely to do much good. We do not have a system whereby parishioner choose their priests, and on balance that is a good thing. If a priest has the right to set the norms for posture, and I don’t know or particularly care what canon law says on the matter, then the parishioners must accept that. Mass isn’t the place for making points.

I disagree. Nobody can tell you that you cannot kneel, if you want to prostrate you can do that. To pick on poor little old women because they want to kneel is beyond words. They should of just grab their canes and big purses and knock the heck out of him.

 

[Uxor]

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We must remember that no priest or bishop stands on his own. They are responsible to Rome—otherwise–we have no Pope–just a figurehead. A priest or bishop–who takes it upon himself to cut the people from the rights that Rome has authorized --is demonstrating by this act—that they are the authority --above Rome.

I think that is what we have been seeing going on. They don’t listen to the Pope or the Church, they don’t what ever they want. People have a right to their faith.

 

[chevalier]

We must remember that no priest or bishop stands on his own. They are responsible to Rome—otherwise–we have no Pope–just a figurehead. A priest or bishop–who takes it upon himself to cut the people from the rights that Rome has authorized --is demonstrating by this act—that they are the authority --above Rome.

If the priest or bishop openly shows disregard to Rome and tells us not to listen to Rome but rather to him, then it would be a bad idea to listen.

But what do we do with all those priests and bishops who want to “raise the people from their knees” despite the default genuflections in the Roman Church? They are entitled to prescribe different positions in order to make sure the liturgy is respectful enough and so on, but when they change the positions in order to “raise the people from their knees”, an agenda which I, for example, do not support?

 

[Uxor]

If the priest or bishop openly shows disregard to Rome and tells us not to listen to Rome but rather to him, then it would be a bad idea to listen.

But what do we do with all those priests and bishops who want to “raise the people from their knees” despite the default genuflections in the Roman Church? They are entitled to prescribe different positions in order to make sure the liturgy is respectful enough and so on, but when they change the positions in order to “raise the people from their knees”, an agenda which I, for example, do not support?

What they are doing is setting themselves up as idols. Worship them instead of God.

 

[BobP123]

I disagree. Nobody can tell you that you cannot kneel, if you want to prostrate you can do that. To pick on poor little old women because they want to kneel is beyond words. They should of just grab their canes and big purses and knock the heck out of him.

You forgot about us old men?

 

[BobP123]

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A priest or bishop–who takes it upon himself to cut the people from the rights that Rome has authorized --is demonstrating by this act—that they are the authority --above Rome.

Even worse, some of the bishops, priests, and liturgical committees actually think they know better than Christ Himself.

 

[Uxor]

You forgot about us old men?

Hey Bob, feel free anytime to exercise that right of participation from Vatican II.

 

[bear06]

I am starting this thread to prevent [thread=140615]When Does Traditionalism Cross the Line?[/thread] straying off topic, while exploring a single aspect of it. Viz:

One of the polled marks of Traditionalism is: “Do you kneel during the Agnus Dei? (read GIRM)”.

Having [post=2025995]read the GIRM[/post], and [post=2042528]having never noticed such practice[/post], I did not understand this. But [post=2044553]I can believe[/post] that there are those who would do so and for apparently traditional reasons.

Finally! New material:

But the Church *does *regulate, at some level of detail, the posture of the faithful. Returning to the GIRM for the US, it says:

While I am not aware of any *dubia / responsa *regarding this particular question, it would not surprise me if one would be similar to that regarding, eg, the reception of Communion kneeling.

So my answer to carl36’s question is: I think the default for all Catholics, American or otherwise, should be conformity to the GIRM. I just don’t know what would move me to do otherwise, no matter how reverently?

:twocents:
tee

It is also interesting to note that the universal norm (not the U.S. adaptations) is to stand from the Great Amen until Communion. There’s also another document out there I was reading (I sent it to a friend recently who will hopefully send it back to me because I can’t find my link :doh2: ) that says that bishops, to the best of their ability, should try and have their flocks conform to the universal norms which is why some might (of course by no means all) have their diocese stand.

 

[Aramis]

It is also interesting to note that the universal norm (not the U.S. adaptations) is to stand from the Great Amen until Communion. There’s also another document out there I was reading (I sent it to a friend recently who will hopefully send it back to me because I can’t find my link :doh2: ) that says that bishops, to the best of their ability, should try and have their flocks conform to the universal norms which is why some might (of course by no means all) have their diocese stand.

It is the local ordinary’s discretion under both NO and TLM to regulate the posture of the faithful laity, with a preference for the norms. That being said, the standing during the Pater Noster is a return to the use of the orontes posture, most appropriate. The recent change in some Diocese, eg Anchorage, to standing from the Pater Noster until the repose of the Blessed Sacrament is likewise a return to pre-trent traditions and a symbol of respect for the presence of Christ.

 

[bear06]

It is the local ordinary’s discretion under both NO and TLM to regulate the posture of the faithful laity, with a preference for the norms. That being said, the standing during the Pater Noster is a return to the use of the orontes posture, most appropriate. The recent change in some Diocese, eg Anchorage, to standing from the Pater Noster until the repose of the Blessed Sacrament is likewise a return to pre-trent traditions and a symbol of respect for the presence of Christ.

I’m not debating this in the least. I’m just saying that the universal norm per the GIRM is to stand and, of course, bishops are exercising the choice given to them. I’m just say that there’s more than one reason why a bishop might choose the standing option. I don’t think people even realize that standing is the universal norm.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

If your priest told you to jump about during the Consecration, would you do so?

The traditionalists in this case, are not the ones making points…

I am not concelebrating, so it is not my job to organise and direct worship. We must presume that the priest has the support or at least the toleration of the bishop.

Priests do sometimes bend rules. If it is very extreme, such as jumping up and down at the Eucharist in a society where that is regarded as disrespectful, there comes a point where parishioners have to draw the line. However we’ve got to get away from a culture of constant petty complaints to higher authority, either by traditionalists or liberals in pursuit of an agenda, or commonly by parishioners over matters of personal interest. For instance one parishioner rang up to complain that my parish priest was baptising a baby on Easter Sunday.

 

[Jesus1]

I appreciate the lively discussion. I still have so much to learn about the rubrics of the Mass. Where we live, we have been blest with two wonderful priests who say the NO with reverence. In the last month, they have begun singing the Sanctus and Agnus Dei, as opposed to the venacular, which for me is beautiful. It brings us back to the fact that our Catholic Faith is 2,000 years old, founded by Christ Himself. We are truly blest to have God keeping us personally in His one true Church.
My journey back into the Catholic Faith started when one woman was brave and obedient enough to kneel before the Angus Dei, and to remain kneeling until she went up to Communion. She also wore the veil, which got me questioning and wondering about why she did such things. It took me a few years more, but I did come full force back into the Catholic Church after starting to attend an Assembly of God Church. What I am trying to point out, is that there are so many Catholics in every single Mass, that are hungry for the truth, just for someone to give them a reason to stay Catholic. They love the Church, and going to Communion - because there is something there, they just don’t understand what it is, like I was. So, I kneel know, before the Agnus Dei, and I remain kneeling during the Consecration, and the Our Father, and up to the time that I go up to Communion. After Communion, I take my children with me into the chapel where the Tabernacle is, and we kneel there together to give thanks. Last week during our kneeling there, a little girl in my youngest son’s class, came up to us as we were kneeling, and asked if she could pray with us there too. I felt as if an angel was visiting us, that a true moment of grace was happening. And so, of course I did, amazed at what was happening. Praise God for what He just did there.
I used to sell baskets, and I learned there, that if you go to a restaurant, and the waiter raves and raves about how wonderful a dish is, you will most likely order it too, to find out how good it is. If God calls you to kneel during the Agnus Dei and to remain there until you go to Communion, do it! You are getting people thinking about why you would do this? What is it about that little Host that would make someone kneel there with such devotion and love. Smile at people as you walk into Mass, during the sign of peace, and after Mass. People are watching you, to see what sets you apart, and what gives you the joy that they are so hungry for. Make them hungry for God with your actions, and your peace! Join a Bible study at your church, etc. Share with love your thoughts! I didn’t want to, because I get tired of the liberals, and I’ve been made fun of by the facilitators at times for my quotes from the saints. But you know, these people out there are hungry. The people there thank me for being in these groups because I know so much about the Church, the Bible and the saints. If we don’t go and touch these Catholic’s hearts, someone else from another religion might talk them out of the Catholic Church, and they will leave because we haven’t done our job as Catholics, showing them Christ’s love, and teaching them the truth. Read Scott and Kimberly Hahns books, and other great converts. Underline all of those verses that they give in your Bible for being Catholic, and be always ready to give a reason for your beliefs! You will help so many Catholics grow strong in their own faith, and they will pass that on to their families. With each Catholic that you are encouraging and strengthening, you are helping generations stay strong Catholics and even help raise up some great priests, nuns and even saints!
Praise God for where you are, because everything is from His hands. If He puts you in a NO, then kneel, wear a veil, and show everyone His love! You will make them hungry! If you have been blessed with a TLM, then praise God, and pray for those of us that are on the front lines! My husband and I have been publicly humiliated from the pulpit for kneeling during Communion. We were in the chapel with the Tabernacle after Communion, and so we didn’t hear it, but others came up to us after Mass and told us what the priest said about us. It was hard, but you never know how God is going to use these situations for His glory. The Saints became saints, because they endured the passion as well, spoke the truth in love, and dared to be obedient to God, because they loved Him, and knew (and know even today) that we are all going to be standing in front of His throne when we die.
Keep the Faith, and pass it on to everyone around you, with Love.
God bless