Traditional religious vs. diocesan priests?

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Oh, yes, I so agree with the above post, JRed. Now, please, tell me how to do a spiritual bouquet or where to find out how one does so. I have a note book of my daily prayer intentions to keep track of things and always a Novena or two going. I can incorporate this new idea that you have suggested. I added the bishop under my daily prayer for the priests this morning. I feel very bad that it never occurred to me to do so until your post. I find that reading “Introduction to a Devout Life” by St. Francis de Sales on a regular basis is a good way to keep on track and avoid unwise behaviours.
A spiritual banquet might look something like this:

usccb.org/yearforpriests/spiritual_bouquet.pdf

…I’ve sent some out to priests before, and they love them… encourages them, and they need encouragement rather than the loads of negative comments they receive daily…

We just got a group of people to offer up a bunch of prayers–we listed the prayers on a card, the amount of times the prayers had been said in a certain period of time, then we listed all the people who had been praying, and we added a Bible verse, a special note to our priest, and thanked him for all that he does (it’s great if you can recognize specifics). Then, we sent it to him.
 
With no disrespect to anyone here, I am given to wonder if anyone really took the time to read what was written:
I know a religious congregation that have problems with some dioceses. This congregation teaches communion by kneeling and other old practices of the church while many dioceses teach communion by the hand because of many reasons.

Some members of this congregation attended a mass celebrated by the bishop
This is an interesting statement, if for no other reason than that it does not say where the Mass was said. To continue:
but when communion came, they knelt and the bishop commanded them to stand up.
No mention is made of where they knelt, and where the bishop was. Did they go up and kneel at a Communion rail while the bishop was standing in the center, outside the rail? What actually was coing on here? it is not clear at all as to exactly what was happening.
They refused to receive communion by standing. They stood up and left. (This happened not only once.)
It would appear from the statement that the people who left were part of the congregation, not part of the religious group who lead the parish. discussion of religious refusing Communion from the bishop seems misplaced.
Many people even priests said that this congregation is disrespectful to the bishop.
This appears to be out of context, and a comment made at other times than the Mass in question, as a reflection of general attitude of the congregation.
Who is right then? The religious members who followed faithfully their charism? Or the bishop who has the authority over the diocese?

I hope they can find reconciliation between one another. This congregation does not exist anymore in this diocese. They are also attributed disobedient to the bishop.
This makes for an interesting statement also; it would seem there is mroe behind this than the Mass said by the bishop.

Further, nothing in the OP indicates that the bishop actually refused Communion to those who left; again, it is possible to find a scenario where this did not reach the level of an outright refusal; but rather, a group wishing to “show the bishop” what their attitude was about the matter. In other words, the bishop may or may not have refused to give Communion to the people (and there is no statement as to how many this constituted - 2 or 3, 10, 50?) so it is at best difficult to posit any meaningful answer to the OP.

The religious group is not identified, further muddying the waters. In short, the OP invites opinions on such a slim amount of facts that it is difficult to make any statement meaningfully. Was the bishop more in the style of Archbishop Burke? Chaput? Or one of the very liberal bishops we have among us? Was this incident isolated or repeated? Was it in the parish to which the individuals belonged, or elsewhere, and they showed up? Are there circumstances that are not detailed which could change the decision - such as people leaving, before being actually refused?

Opinions are like breath; too often they consist of halitosis. Especially when so little is given factually that one has to guess as to the details in order to make up an opinion.
 
Bro JR-

For clarification however being a member of an Order myself and my father before me as a Franciscan it has never been my concern about the likes of dislikes of a Bishop. I know as a practicing Catholic and a member of the Religious what my Church has taught me since I was a child. Additionally to some extent it is our responsibility to defend the Church and its teachings.

Personably I believe this is where the bishops are missing the boat. It is ok to deny a Catholic Religious Holy Communion but yet we will welcome everyone else into our Church? This makes no sense. These are obviously very pious people who have been taught in the Religious Institution how they want them to receive Holy Communion. The question then is so is it really worth the headache to stir this up with the very institutions who provided education to our children, who served in our hospitals, or who lived in less than desirable conditions under their vows. Why would we isolate them? Additionally, if they were a schismatic group they would have never shown their faces there as they would consider receiving Holy Communion there a sacrilege. Why do we fight out our and yet welcome only the outsiders? These Bishops need to consider this. I know my local Bishop is not involved at all with our Order but that is ok as you stated we have our own superiors who handle our needs. Trust me I am not trying to correct anyone and have my stuff dissected just food for thought.

God Bless

Bro. BH
 
Bro JR-

For clarification however being a member of an Order myself and my father before me as a Franciscan it has never been my concern about the likes of dislikes of a Bishop. I know as a practicing Catholic and a member of the Religious what my Church has taught me since I was a child. Additionally to some extent it is our responsibility to defend the Church and its teachings.

Personably I believe this is where the bishops are missing the boat. It is ok to deny a Catholic Religious Holy Communion but yet we will welcome everyone else into our Church? This makes no sense. These are obviously very pious people who have been taught in the Religious Institution how they want them to receive Holy Communion. The question then is so is it really worth the headache to stir this up with the very institutions who provided education to our children, who served in our hospitals, or who lived in less than desirable conditions under their vows. Why would we isolate them? Additionally, if they were a schismatic group they would have never shown their faces there as they would consider receiving Holy Communion there a sacrilege. Why do we fight out our and yet welcome only the outsiders? These Bishops need to consider this. I know my local Bishop is not involved at all with our Order but that is ok as you stated we have our own superiors who handle our needs. Trust me I am not trying to correct anyone and have my stuff dissected just food for thought.

God Bless

Bro. BH
I’m sorry Brother, but I’m not understanding your message. I know that Franciscans, Dominicans, Benedictines, Carmelites, Augustinians, Jesuits, Holy Cross and the large religious communities of pontifical right are not part of any diocese. We are autonomous with our own ordinaries. That’s why Canon Law in 1983 separated us from the laity, because the laity is part of the diocese and has to tow the bishop’s line and we do not.

However, our tradition has always been to treat the bishop with respect and comply with his wishes when we are in his churches. My take from the OP is that this ia group of religious, not lay people. The suggestion is that they were at a mass in a place outside of their religious house, otherwise, why leave the building.

On the other hand, there is no rule that says that a Catholic may not receive communion on their knees.

From where I stand, the bishop was wrong for asking them to stand and the religious were wrong for failing to comply. In this case, even if the bishop is overstepping his authority, it seems that he’s on his turf. If he had been in the house of the religious institute, they would not have left the building. If a bishop breaks the rules of a religious institute in their house, they can refrain from inviting him for mass again. They don’t have to leave their own chapel.

According to the OP this was not the first time they have had this encounter. My guess is that whoever this involves is out to prove a point. The bishop messed up and the religious institute is way out of line. You don’t go into your neighbor’s house and demand that he play by the rules. Unfortunately, it’s his house. If he breaks the rules in his house, you have only one recourse, his boss. But you cannot challenge him in his own house. This is a breach in traditional relationships between bishops and religious.

I’m speaking from personal experience here. We had a situation where our brothers complained that a certain bishop was less than orthodox. At the time I was the superior of the house. My solution was simple. I asked the Provincial to transfer the brothers to a house in another diocese. My job as superior was to provide a service for the diocese and to keep the structure of the religious community intact, not to correct the bishop. We are guests in his diocese. We either live with him or transfer.

As I tell our brothers, “You’re big boys. Save your complaints for big things. I’m not going to tackle a bishop every time the brothers complain.” The brothers always understood this. I had the last word, end of story. Some things are real problems that require the bishop and the superior communicate and other situations can be avoided. If a problem can be avoided, then do so.

Now we’re erecting a new community and my policy is the same. “Don’t waste my time asking me to change the bishop. Either work in his diocese according to his rules or move on. It is not my role to tell the bishop what to do or not do. My role is to lead, govern and form the community. My duty to the bishop is to make sure that we fulfill our contract with him, not to correct him. He’s not in my community and I’m not his superior. Finally, it is the duty of the community to obey. Religious life is not a democracy.” I don’t put up with battles that people can avoid. I have no patience for that. There are too many important issues in the Church and religious life. As a superior before and as a formator now, I tell the brothers the same thing. If you want to be Franciscan the first lesson that you must learn from St. Francis is to give to the bishop what belongs to him and to the superior what is his. It’s just a slight twist on give to Caesar . . . etc. But the novices get it.

This is not about denying religious communion and welcoming others into the house. The OP does not say that the religious were denied communion. It says that they were told to get up. As superior, if my religious were denied communion, I’d want to know why. If they are told to get up at a mass outside of our house, I tell the brothers, “Get up. Do as you’re told and don’t get into that situation again. End of story.”

Frarternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
With no disrespect to anyone here, I am given to wonder if anyone really took the time to read what was written:
No disrespect taken, but been there, done that [post=5990405]before[/post]. 😛
 
Dear JRed, thank you for sending me the info for the spiritual bouquet.
 
Brother JR-

I think I understand better what you are saying. I was under the understanding that this groups of Sisters and Brothers were denied communion, apperantly that was not the case and religious decided to continue pushing him rather than going through their superiors. I know at the closest parish to me the Priest will provide Holy Communion to me on the knees as long as I am in my Habit. I can’t say for what he does for others. I find this encouraging as my Bishop has no issue with me obviously receiving Holy Communion in a reverant and humble posture.

Obviously every order or society is different, in mine too go through our superiors. All things concerned I pray for the local Bishop everyday in the hours for him to lead his congregations, always remain faithful to tradition, and for his diocese to always pray for us on on mission.

Bro BH
 
Brother JR-

I think I understand better what you are saying. I was under the understanding that this groups of Sisters and Brothers were denied communion, apperantly that was not the case and religious decided to continue pushing him rather than going through their superiors. I know at the closest parish to me the Priest will provide Holy Communion to me on the knees as long as I am in my Habit. I can’t say for what he does for others. I find this encouraging as my Bishop has no issue with me obviously receiving Holy Communion in a reverant and humble posture.

Obviously every order or society is different, in mine too go through our superiors. All things concerned I pray for the local Bishop everyday in the hours for him to lead his congregations, always remain faithful to tradition, and for his diocese to always pray for us on on mission.

Bro BH
My experience has been similar to yours. If you’re in your habit the bishops will not question what you’re doing. You can stand, kneel, use the tongue, the hands, make a reverent bow or do a dance. OK, not dance, but you know what I mean.

The male religious habit usually means that there are some lines that no man ever crosses unless he wants to be swatted like a fly by the Pope. If you do cross, you had better have all of your eyes dotted and your tees crossed. This is why Bishop D’Arcy may have a case against Notre Dame, but not agains the Brohters of the Holy Cross. The Brothers are protected by the papacy. Unless you can prove, beyond any resonable doubt that they are guilty, you have to be caerful our you can end up with crow on your face It may be the Pope who will throw it. He almost has to. Canonically, he is the highest superior of every religious Institute of Pontifical Right. These are his sons and daughers whom he has to protect from the bishops and the laity. That’s why the dinctinction of Pontifical Right was created during the Middle Ages.

Taking that back to this situation. No bishop can tell an institute of Ponfical Right to act contrary to their rule, contrary to their constitution, contrary to the will of their brothers. Basically, no bishop can ask religious to violate the vow of obedience. We know this.

On the other hand religiouse make a vow that lay people and diocesan deacons, priests and bishops do not make. We make a vow of chastity. Chastity goes far beyond giving up marriage. It means to embrace Christ as the only goal in your life and the sole target of your undivided love. Even a spouse or children don’t fit into the picture, because of your love for Christ is so intense. that is becomes exclusive.

Now that we’ve clarified this, then we have to see where does the religious live out this intimate relationship with Christ. He or she lives it out with other men and women who have been called by Christ to the same relationship with him. This is the community. Because we love Christ so much, we choose to love our brothers or sisters who go with us on the journey. Therefore the vow of chastity is the bond between Christ and the religious shared with other men or women religious who have the same bond. This bond moves us to love one another as true brothers or sisters.

Theefore, it is a very stupid move against your vow of chastity, which is really a vow to love Christ along with your brorthers or sisters, it is a very stupid move when you knowingly get yourself into a ridiculous situation and then storm out as if you were a child. Why is this a stupid move against the vow of chastity? When who make your brothers or sisters look like idiots, even when it’s for the right reason, you are not loving them. If you love Christ together with them, you don’t make them look like morons by calling negative attention to yourself. Put another way, it’s an act if infidelity. Given the little information that we have, it may have been unnecessary. I don’t know. I was not there.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Bro JR-

Very well said an hopefully the next time they will change their methods. I guess the Bishops have it lucky in our dioceses because we have Brothers with common sense and no intent to argue over the little things.

May God Bless You

Bro. BH
 
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