Traditional Teaching or Go with the Flow Teaching

[Pious]

I have just been debating with my sister who is a catholic like myself, about the Tridentine vs the N.O rite.

I prefer the Tridentine rite where as my sister prefers the N.O rite, and as such is why I have applied to the FSSP.

My sister started arguing saying that the Tridentine is basicaly dead and people are moving with the times and want the N.O Mass over the Tridentine Mass.

I told her that there is nothing wrong with Tradition and many people are returning to the Traditional liturgical rite of the Mass, but she said there is no evidence of this.

The former Priest of her parish was very liberal and got rid of the incense, wearing a chasuble(sp), replacing the chalice and ciborium with clay vessels and he had told her that is what Christ used at the last supper and when I told her it is an abuse and told her about the GIRM.

She said who writes the GIRM and I said it comes from the Vatican and she said that they teach doctrine different out in Rome.

And said the Priest can change how he say’s and performs the Mass and it is up to him and not Rome

I mentioned the Eastern Catholics and she said that they do not exist as she would have been told about them (she is a teacher in a Catholic high school) and therefore can not be important.

The school where she is at teaches that the Old Testament are stories and that Adam and Eve did not exist.

I always thought she was a conservative Catholic, but after this evening, I am begining to wonder if she thinks the real presence is non binding to Catholics.

I was accused of having a tunnel vision on the Catholic faith and need to embrace a liberal view or I will not make a good Priest.

Any thoughts

 

[BenFischer]

I doubt you’ll find anyone in the Traditional Catholic forums that agrees with your sister!

You’ll go far by doing as Fr Z. says and simply Say the Black and Do the Red. That’s not Tradition, though. That’s the Law. I have known priests who would definitely be considered progressive who still follow the rubrics and preach the teaching of the church, at least in public.

It’s that simple. Really, with the shortage of Priests, and ever increasing demands on a Pastor’s time, isn’t it just easier to do what’s in the books and forget about all the innovation?

 

[Pious]

Thank you for your reply;

I can understand what you are saying, but is Tradition really dying out in the Catholic faith; are we supposed to give way to liberal ideas and go against Catholic teaching or has the Catholic teaching changed in 20+ yrs.

One example I was told that, now the Altar servers are no longer required to kneel at any point during the Mass and that their posistion is to be standing throughout.

Where do these new rulings come from?

 

[latinmasslover]

Nothing wrong with “going with the flow,” but those who wish to do that ought to be aware that the flow leads to hell. Your sister is basing her facts on opinions of disobedient priests. I don’t know what to tell you except to pray for her and pray hard! My own sister is officially an Agnostic now (ironically, she can defend the Catholic Faith better than some priests we know). I have no real advice to offer except to pray for her, put her on the prayer list of orthodox monasteries, and pray for yourself, for wisdom as to how to answer her.

What sort of priest do you want to become? You’ll both be in my prayers, God Bless.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Thank you for your reply;

I can understand what you are saying, but is Tradition really dying out in the Catholic faith; are we supposed to give way to liberal ideas and go against Catholic teaching or has the Catholic teaching changed in 20+ yrs.

One example I was told that, now the Altar servers are no longer required to kneel at any point during the Mass and that their posistion is to be standing throughout.

Where do these new rulings come from?

Tragically, your sister is right that many Catholics are steering away from traditional Christianity and are embracing modern liberalism. It is a very scary thing to see precious practices, and in many cases even doctrines, that have been cherished throughout Church history become discarded in favor of modern ideas, including Protestant thinking. Ecumenism is, I expect, part of the reason for the shifts in Church thinking at the top of our hierarchy. Social pressure is creating a lot of changes on the bottom (as well as on the top, to some extent). It’s very disturbing, when one compares what is taught about Church practice in teaching in many liberal churches with what the Early Church Fathers said.

Many people are calling themselves Catholics today, but in the third century they’d have been instantly excommunicated.

We need to do what the Early Church did, and resist the tide of pressure calling on us to change rather than bowing to it. We should be the ones that change the culture, rather than letting the culture change us .

I’m praying for the Vatican and the Church’s integrity daily.

Don’t let the modern tides of liberalism change your beliefs too. The Church’s historical teachings and tradition are rooted in the earliest centuries of Christian history, and have thrived for almost two thousand years. Today they’re eroding. But the changes that are occurring are a result of the influence of Protestantism and secularism. Bad, bad examples.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

With traditional church beliefs melting away around us and liberalizing, I think we all need to look back at our Church tradition in history and the early centuries of Christian existence. I’ve been focusing intensely on the passages in which Jesus said, “You are in the world, but you are not of the world.” He said, “If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own.” He added that the world cannot love his disciples, and that they must not love the world. He set up clear, rigid lines that the disciples must not cross.

Today, the love of the world is killing souls in droves. The world is such a pressure, such a strong influence, and liberalism that changes traditional Christian values is the source of our destruction.

Nothing wrong with “going with the flow,” but those who wish to do that ought to be aware that the flow leads to hell.

This is exactly right. And it’s very disturbing .

 

[antimon]

Orthodoxy and traditionalism are two different things. You don’t have to be a traditionalist Catholic in order to believe orthodox Catholic doctrines.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

You’re contrasting changes in doctrine with changes in practice, correct? I think that’s what you’re saying.

While that’s true, a lot of the traditional church practices exist for practical reasons. They strengthen and protect the faith. And some changes in practice can be abominable and directly damaging to souls.

I’ve seen the erosion of belief in Catholic doctrine often coming hand in hand with the erosion of traditional church practice.

 

[sphilomena]

Thank you for your reply;

I can understand what you are saying, but is Tradition really dying out in the Catholic faith; are we supposed to give way to liberal ideas and go against Catholic teaching or has the Catholic teaching changed in 20+ yrs.
No.
One example I was told that, now the Altar servers are no longer required to kneel at any point during the Mass and that their position is to be standing throughout.
Not true. They kneel when the rest of us kneel, generally.
Where do these new rulings come from?
Disobedient priests.

God help your sister’s students!

 

[Pious]

I’m glad that I am not the only one that sees my sisters views as being wrong; the sad part is when I was in my teens I attended her parish and we had an excellent priest who was big on tradition and very orthodox and my two nephews were even Altar Servers

But when the new Priest came everything was stripped back and simplified, the congregation split and went elswhere and those that stayed accepted the changes as being the new Catholic teaching

How can I show my sister that her ideas are wrong and go against Catholic teaching and that Priests can not change the Mass to suit themselves.

Thank you

N.B: Her parish has now got a couple of new Priests who are the Vocationist Fathers, so hopefully things at the parish will return to obedience to the Holy See

 

[latinmasslover]

That depends, does she accept the “basics” of Catholic teaching? Will quoting documents from Rome have any impact on her or will she go with what she feels is personally right? Knowing the answers to the above will enable us all to advise better.

 

[Pious]

That depends, does she accept the “basics” of Catholic teaching? Will quoting documents from Rome have any impact on her or will she go with what she feels is personally right? Knowing the answers to the above will enable us all to advise better.

Well that is the problem, she grew up with V1 and came back when V2 was in full swing. We had a very good traditional and orthodox Priest and my sister respectd him; but when she had a new Priest she believed him as she believes a Priest can not be wrong as he has authority.

So hopefully quoting documents from authoritive sources will show her that she is being led away.

 

[elt1956]

I have just been debating with my sister who is a catholic like myself, about the Tridentine vs the N.O rite.

I prefer the Tridentine rite where as my sister prefers the N.O rite, and as such is why I have applied to the FSSP.

My sister started arguing saying that the Tridentine is basicaly dead and people are moving with the times and want the N.O Mass over the Tridentine Mass.

I told her that there is nothing wrong with Tradition and many people are returning to the Traditional liturgical rite of the Mass, but she said there is no evidence of this.

The former Priest of her parish was very liberal and got rid of the incense, wearing a chasuble(sp), replacing the chalice and ciborium with clay vessels and he had told her that is what Christ used at the last supper and when I told her it is an abuse and told her about the GIRM.

She said who writes the GIRM and I said it comes from the Vatican and she said that they teach doctrine different out in Rome.

And said the Priest can change how he say’s and performs the Mass and it is up to him and not Rome

I mentioned the Eastern Catholics and she said that they do not exist as she would have been told about them (she is a teacher in a Catholic high school) and therefore can not be important.

The school where she is at teaches that the Old Testament are stories and that Adam and Eve did not exist.

I always thought she was a conservative Catholic, but after this evening, I am begining to wonder if she thinks the real presence is non binding to Catholics.

I was accused of having a tunnel vision on the Catholic faith and need to embrace a liberal view or I will not make a good Priest.

Any thoughts

Hello Pious. I don’t know how far I would “go with the flow”, but these are some of the things I have learned. Although I have only a vague understanding of the difference in Tradition with a Capital T which includes all doctrines/dogmas which have been given Ex Cathedra by the Pope and tradition/s lower case t, which are those perhaps rituals which have crept in from various places , or could be cultural differences, (See rites of Eastern Catholic Mass), or practices and are performed by Priests at Mass, a thorough understanding of the differences of the two levels of T/tradition needs to be understood by many Catholics. When we think of the Sacrifice of the Mass being performed in the Early Church, we will get a quite different picture of that being celebrated now, whether it is the Tridentine, or New Mass. BUT what is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY are the Credo, Consecration, the Offertory and Communion. Possibly in the Early Church this was the complete Mass, although I have read that there were instances of Milk and Honey also being offered in addition to the Bread and Wine. But as long as the core of the Mass, as above are done, we have celebrated the Mass, NO or TLM. As to the priest of your sister’s parish using clay vessels and although there is no proof these were used by Christ, there is nothing sinful in their being used. It depends upon what one’s idea of reverence is. Perhaps the priest of that parish thought he was being more reverent. As to the chasible not being worn, I am not sure if this is the vestment that relates back to Jewish ritual, or not. But I know there is one. I will have to try to find the history of that. Yes, I know many things in the Church have been changed that I wish were still with us. I wish the various priests and Bishops here in the states especially, were given more education of what was proper and not proper to allow during the Mass. Some did go too far overboard for the comfort of many people.

As to the question of Adam and Eve, why are they teaching that? What age group are the children she is teaching? If it is being taught as History, then it could be acceptable, but if it is being taught as Religion that is another story. Peace.

 

[latinmasslover]

It’s never okay to teach a lie. The Scriptures say there’s an Adam and Eve, the Church has never contradicted this. Pope Pius XII condemned the view that Genesis is myth, and as far as I’m aware, no pope since then has countered this.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Well that is the problem, she grew up with V1 and came back when V2 was in full swing. We had a very good traditional and orthodox Priest and my sister respectd him; but when she had a new Priest she believed him as she believes a Priest can not be wrong as he has authority.

So hopefully quoting documents from authoritive sources will show her that she is being led away.

Yeah, you’ve got to show that priests vary in opinion, and their views can be untrue or sometimes even heretical . Martin Luther was a priest.

 

[elt1956]

It’s never okay to teach a lie. The Scriptures say there’s an Adam and Eve, the Church has never contradicted this. Pope Pius XII condemned the view that Genesis is myth, and as far as I’m aware, no pope since then has countered this.

You are right lml. No lies. I was talking about perhaps a college course in the History of Various Religions which “could” include beliefs of Jewish and Christian Faith, the Bible, or Torah. We all know there had to be a first “couple”. That is just common sense. We all know some act made us a bit “much less” than the angels. It is absolutely wrong as far as I am concerned to teach the writings in the Bible are just stories to young people who do not have the sophistication to understand what is truth and what is the opinion of the teacher in a belief system. If one teaches one part of the Bible is wrong, where do you stop? I wonder what she teaches about the New Testament? Scary.

 

[sphilomena]

I have read that there were instances of Milk and Honey also being offered in addition to the Bread and Wine.

I find that hard to believe!

As to the priest of your sister’s parish using clay vessels and although there is no proof these were used by Christ, there is nothing sinful in their being used.

It can be sinful, in that Church documents tell the priests not to use these vessels, so it is disobedience.

 

[elt1956]

sphilomena:
Yep, in the early Church. Didn’t last long, but according to the description, which I would have to find for you, that did happen.

Also, please tell me where the Church documents say it is “sinful” to use clay vessels at Mass. Haven’t heard that. Peace.

 

[Pious]

As to the question of Adam and Eve, why are they teaching that? What age group are the children she is teaching? If it is being taught as History, then it could be acceptable, but if it is being taught as Religion that is another story. Peace.

I do not know why that is being teached, but it is being taught by the Religious Education teachers.

The age group’s are between 11 - 18yr olds.

My sister is not the R.E teacher, she is a support teacher (she sit’s with the less academic students and helps them to catch up in class)

It is what she is hearing and being told about from the teachers at the school.

elt1956:

I wonder what she teaches about the New Testament? Scary.

As she is not the class teacher but a support teacher, she has to listen to the academic teachers, and it is they that are teaching this way; but my sister believes it is the truth because the teachers are saying it is what the church is now teaching

That is why I am looking for official documents, because I know if she can see the truth on paper then she should believe.

As for the NT, apparently they are the only real life stories in the Bible.

 

[sphilomena]

Yep, in the early Church. Didn’t last long, but according to the description, which I would have to find for you, that did happen.

Also, please tell me where the Church documents say it is “sinful” to use clay vessels at Mass. Haven’t heard that. Peace.

Will have to find the document, but the vessels must be “noble and durable”, objects that would not have ordinary uses. Clay is very common and could be used for chips! I said the disobedience would be sinfull: to knowingly disobey what the Church tells us to do.
Rushing right now, will try to come back later with the info; Benedictgal where are you?!