Traditionalism and Eastern Churches

[JuanCarlos]

By and large, do Traditionalists support Latinization in Eastern churches? Because I know of the SSJK in the Ukraine, and was wondering if this was a typical view of traditionalists (especially ones recognized by Rome).

On the other hand, do Eastern Churches generally support Traditionalism in the Roman Rite, or are more or less apathetic?

I don’t mean any offense by this question (I know Latinization is a touchy subject), but I’m interested in opinions

 

[m134e5]

The Tradition of the Eastern Church is a very ancient and venerable one, and does not need anything from the Latin Church to somehow “complete” it. The Latinization of the Byzantine churches was/is very unfortunate, and steps should be taken to undo the Latinizations.

 

[Freshman88]

The Tradition of the Eastern Church is a very ancient and venerable one, and does not need anything from the Latin Church to somehow “complete” it. The Latinization of the Byzantine churches was/is very unfortunate, and steps should be taken to undo the Latinizations.

If only deLatinization were that simple. For instance, I’ve heard some people getting very upset at the idea of the stations of the cross in an Eastern Catholic church. What if however, that parish wants the stations in their Church? The stations are a wonderful spiritual exercise, why get rid of them because they are simply Latin, and especially if those in the parish want to keep it.

I believe that’s how I understand the SSJK - they simply don’t want to get rid of the devotions that they have come to love. In fact, isn’t that a blessing that the Easterners have for being in communion with Rome - they have access to both Western and Eastern spiritual practices.

Heck, if someone started doing the Jesus prayer in a Western Church - I certainly wouldn’t be upset.

At the same time however, it would be gravely immoral to force Latinization on a tradition that is just as valid as our own. As long as Easterners willingly accept various Latin devotions into their tradition - then they shouldn’t be hindered - but let them decide.

I find forcible delatinization just as wrong as forced latinization. It is as if you are saying they are less Byzantine because they do not act as the Eastern schismatics do - as if the schismatics are the true holders of Eastern tradition - which is tantamount to a slap in the face to those Orthodox who are in communion with Rome (as all Christians should be!)

 

[Mannyfit75]

I prefer Eastern Churches over Traditionists since they are much older in their rites. Their Liturgy include to Liturgy of St. Mark, the Apostle, Liturgy of John Crystodom, just to name a few.

 

[Seamus_L]

There is a very vocal minority within the Eastern Churches who favor the elimination of anything they believe to be a Latinization. Realistically however, a sizeable pct of Maronites, Ukrainian Catholics and Ruthenian Rite Catholics strongly believe in the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory in a Latin sense, and say the Rosary, AND they like it that way.
The Eastern Churches have a beautiful and wonderful legacy, and a few so called Latinizations won't detract from that in any way.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I know next to nothing about our Eastern brethren. All of my ancestors were western Europeans. We have more than enough evangelization to do in our own realm to address the last 40 years. We need to worry about the beam in our eyes before we worry about the splinter in our brethren’s eye.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

There is a very vocal minority within the Eastern Churches who favor the elimination of anything they believe to be a Latinization. Realistically however, a sizeable pct of Maronites, Ukrainian Catholics and Ruthenian Rite Catholics strongly believe in the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory in a Latin sense, and say the Rosary, AND they like it that way.

                The Eastern Churches have a beautiful and wonderful legacy, and a few so called Latinizations won't detract from that in any way.

And how many Eastern Catholics do you actually know?

Ever parish I know of that has removed latinizations in which it was done with proper catechesis the majority of the parishioners have been behind the changes and those that weren’t come around after some time.

Saying that Eastern Traditions do not matter and can be replaced by Latin ones is like saying that the Extraordinary Form of the Mass does not matter.

As for the Stations of the Cross. There is some history of its use in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church but it really has no place in most other Byzantine parishes as the actual stations replace the Icons of the Churches Feasts on the walls of the Church.

Yes, many Eastern Catholics have grown up with the latinizations and think they are normal but they are not and they should be catechized and the latinizations removed just as Pope John Paul II called us to do.

As for the understanding of the Immaculate Conception and Purgatory, we are Catholics afterall.

 

[m134e5]

If only deLatinization were that simple. For instance, I’ve heard some people getting very upset at the idea of the stations of the cross in an Eastern Catholic church. What if however, that parish wants the stations in their Church? The stations are a wonderful spiritual exercise, why get rid of them because they are simply Latin, and especially if those in the parish want to keep it.

I have known byzantine Catholics who seem to thumb their noses at everything Latin, simply because it is Latin. I wouldn’t do that to any Byzantine devotion or practice. I love my Tradition, and appreciate others. When I am doing the devotions of my Tradition, I am not opposed to others…but I’m not going to go out of my way to find them either.

I believe that’s how I understand the SSJK - they simply don’t want to get rid of the devotions that they have come to love. In fact, isn’t that a blessing that the Easterners have for being in communion with Rome - they have access to both Western and Eastern spiritual practices.

If people have adopted other rites’ devotions, that’s fine- I think the rites should promote their own though- the uniqueness of each rite is part of what makes them so great.

Heck, if someone started doing the Jesus prayer in a Western Church - I certainly wouldn’t be upset.

I’m not sure I would be upset…but I wouldn’t want Latin devotions to be pushed aside in favor of Eastern devotions. I can appreciate other rites, but I like being a Latin Rite Catholic, and with all the Latin devotions, I’m not sure I would need anything else- the same goes for using protestant music at Mass (not that I am comparing Eastern Catholics to protestants).

At the same time however, it would be gravely immoral to force Latinization on a tradition that is just as valid as our own. As long as Easterners willingly accept various Latin devotions into their tradition - then they shouldn’t be hindered - but let them decide.

Exactly

I find forcible delatinization just as wrong as forced latinization. It is as if you are saying they are less Byzantine because they do not act as the Eastern schismatics do - as if the schismatics are the true holders of Eastern tradition - which is tantamount to a slap in the face to those Orthodox who are in communion with Rome (as all Christians should be!)

To an extent… I think if the various rites want to preserve their unique heritage, they should enthusiastically work to promote their own spirituality and devotions (without actively discouraging other devotions).

This is complicated, and the smell of turkey coming from the kitchen is distracting me. I’m not going to go into it much more, but I want to say again- there are many rites in the Church. All are unique, beautiful, & have much to offer the universal Church. I am happy to see people who are enthusiastic about the various rites- this will help ensure that the various Traditions are upheld for years to come. I don’t want the rites to be mixed so much that they lose their uniqueness (which is why I would like to see a lot of the Latinization phased out of the Byzantine churches), but we should respect and appreciate the elements of other Traditions.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I would amplify Br. David’s response. Stations of the Cross followed by Adoration was commonplace 40 years ago. Such is not the case today. So, who are we to be inflicting our practices on other Rites - particularly when there is no agreement in our own house?

 

[Seamus_L]

Nowhere in my post did I suggest that Eastern traditions do not matter. On the contrary, I have the highest regard for the Eastern Churches for sticking more to tradition than most Latin Rite Churches have. My point is that the EC’s I know, and that includes UC’s, BC’s. Maronites, and Chaldeans, are perfectly happy with a few Latinizations in there Churches.

 

[bpbasilphx]

**What if however, that parish wants the stations in their Church? The stations are a wonderful spiritual exercise, why get rid of them because they are simply Latin, and especially if those in the parish want to keep it.

I believe that’s how I understand the SSJK - they simply don’t want to get rid of the devotions that they have come to love. In fact, isn’t that a blessing that the Easterners have for being in communion with Rome - they have access to both Western and Eastern spiritual practices.**

The thing is, frequently these Latinism push out the true Eastern practices.

There is nothing wrong with Stations of the Cross. But should they be done INSTEAD OF the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, the Akathist, the Great Canon, and Great Compline during Lent? This too often has happened in the past.

How about May devotions to the Theotokos? Why them and NOT the Paraklisis to the Theotokos during the first two weeks of August?

Why a multiplicity of Liturgies–but no Vespers or Matins?

Should the recited Liturgy with no incense (a clear imitation of the Latin missa privata) take root in Eastern Churches? (I know of one church where the early English liturgy was recited, and the later one was sung in another language. They never learned to sing the Liturgy in English.)

One Eastern church paper had a letter to the editor that asked, “Why are we using incense so much? That makes us look like Orthodox, not like Catholics”–apparently assuming that the Latin penchant for omitting incense was the norm of Christian worship.

I hope you see what I’m getting at.

 

[jj2011]

**What if however, that parish wants the stations in their Church? The stations are a wonderful spiritual exercise, why get rid of them because they are simply Latin, and especially if those in the parish want to keep it.

I believe that’s how I understand the SSJK - they simply don’t want to get rid of the devotions that they have come to love. In fact, isn’t that a blessing that the Easterners have for being in communion with Rome - they have access to both Western and Eastern spiritual practices.**

The thing is, frequently these Latinism push out the true Eastern practices.

There is nothing wrong with Stations of the Cross. But should they be done INSTEAD OF the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, the Akathist, the Great Canon, and Great Compline during Lent? This too often has happened in the past.

How about May devotions to the Theotokos? Why them and NOT the Paraklisis to the Theotokos during the first two weeks of August?

Why a multiplicity of Liturgies–but no Vespers or Matins?

Should the recited Liturgy with no incense (a clear imitation of the Latin missa privata) take root in Eastern Churches? (I know of one church where the early English liturgy was recited, and the later one was sung in another language. They never learned to sing the Liturgy in English.)

One Eastern church paper had a letter to the editor that asked, “Why are we using incense so much? That makes us look like Orthodox, not like Catholics”–apparently assuming that the Latin penchant for omitting incense was the norm of Christian worship.

I hope you see what I’m getting at.

I believe this post has pretty much hit the nail on the head.

However, I believe that in the short run, SSJK will continue to grow. The best way to create a schism is to tamper with Liturgy or devotional life. Even when reforms are well founded, or are motivated by the desire to restore sound tradition, their implementation can be a delicate matter. Anyone remember the hapless patriarch Nicon?

The prudent thing to do would be to encourage authentic Byzantine practices in a positive way, as bpbasil noted, without appearing to “go after” popular devotion.

By all means, let’s have more Orthros and Vespers and other traditional offices in the churches. Let’s have more monasticism. Then the people will see the beauty of the Byzantine tradition, and will want more of it. It won’t work if the bishop just comes in like a bull in a china shop, suppressing western devotions with heavy handed tactics.

There’s another “elephant in the room” here that nobody has mentioned-- the highly equivocal position of Cardinal Husar. He condemns Fr Kovpak for associating with bishops consecrated sine mandato. In fact the Cardinal himself was consecrated without papal mandate by Cardinal Slipyj, in 1977! This puts him in a rather awkward position when it comes to uncanonical bishops.

Not that I condemn the great Cardinal Slipyj; he should have had the patriarchate, but that would have run afoul of Cardinal Casaroli’s Ostpolitik.

The picture is quite a bit more complex than we’re being allowed to see.

SAVIOR OF THE WORLD, SAVE RUSSIA.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Why a multiplicity of Liturgies–but no Vespers or Matins?

This is one that I do not really understand seeing that a Byzantine Catholic fulfills the Sunday obligation by attendance at Great Vespers on Saturday Night.

The problem with latinizations is that they replace existing Eastern Devotions. When a Western Devotion does not replace something then it is not really a latinization.

 

[Patchunky]

Ever parish I know of that has removed latinizations in which it was done with proper catechesis the majority of the parishioners have been behind the changes and those that weren’t come around after some time.

The most vocal in my parish were the “refugees” from the Latin Rite. They’re REALLY objecting to the rest of us no longer kneeling during the consecration.

It’s funny, our parish is perfectly fine for them to attend when there is no Tridentine Mass downtown but on the Sundays when there is one scheduled, POOF! they’re outta there…

Should be REAL interesting if our parish priest should be transferred and we get a traditional Ruthenian priest

 

[ComradeAndrei]

I’m very trad and very much Latin, but I really appreciate the Eastern Rites. I also do not support Latinization at all-the Eastern Rites are beautiful in their own way and don’t need any “improvement” from the Latin Rite. If they choose to say the rosary or do the station of the cross, that is their choice, but I certainly don’t think they lack anything from not participating in our devotions. When I go to a Byzantine Divine Liturgy, I enter into the Divine Liturgy-I don’t try to see how I could Trad Latinize it.

 

[Aramis]

It is rather ironic. I’m in a parish that is mostly not ethnic Ruthenians. Many are converts to Catholocism (tho’ few from Orthodoxy, which was the parish’s original purpose). Many are former Romans, and there are usually a couple of other EC’s from different churches and rites. We’ve several UGCC members. We’ve been slowly delatinizing over the years.

The one element that really is suffering in the new liturgical reform is the prostopinie. (For reasons I won’t get into.)

But, we’ve LOST vespers and matins in the process. On Sundays the 3rd Hour is said before the DL, while Rev. Father hears confessions. Before the 3rd Hour is said, usually the rosary is said.

We’ve had stations as icons (and small ones at that), but no significant public use of them in the last 20 years. I’ll look and see if they’re still up…

We’ve got extra Icons of the Pantocratnor and Theotokos in the nave; the beautiful nearly full size ones on the Iconostas proper, and the “old” mosaic ones written by a former pastor (Rt. Rev. Archpriest Michael Artim, of eternal memory) further out to the sides, with the candle holders for private intentions before them.

We’ve still got a Roman Crucifix hanging behind the altar, too, but with Rev. Fr. Artim’s mosaic work “Byzantifying” it (the outline of the Byzantine triple cross behind it).

Half the parish reverences the Icon on the tetrapod upon entrance, and about half of those (myself included) then go reverence the Pantocratnor and Theotokos Iconi, and some also reverence the “shroud” icon, kept in the back under glass.

No one kneels, even during the rosary, but we still tend to sit during the litanies where the new pewbook doesn’t say to do so.

 

[bpbasilphx]

** In fact the Cardinal himself was consecrated without papal mandate by Cardinal Slipyj, in 1977!**

I believe that Cardinal Slipyj was given permission to choose a candidate for consecration due to the dangerous situation existing at the time. (I don’t claim to know the whole story.)

In any case, Patriarch Liubomir’s status was certainly rectified by his being created Cardinal–and being among the papabile at the last conclave.

I can see the secular media had he been elected: “Non-catholic elected pope!”

 

[bpbasilphx]

**The most vocal in my parish were the “refugees” from the Latin Rite. They’re REALLY objecting to the rest of us no longer kneeling during the consecration.

It’s funny, our parish is perfectly fine for them to attend when there is no Tridentine Mass downtown but on the Sundays when there is one scheduled, POOF! they’re outta there…**

I have commented on this phenomenon more than once. Those who think the Eastern Churches are the last hold-outs of Pre V2ism from what they think they remember from the '50’s are the most miserable in the long run. Something similar has been remarked upon by Orthodox priests about people converting to Orthodoxy, thinking it’s the last refuge of cultural conservatism.

And as I’ve also remarked, even with the best of intentions, it takes a while for the chrism to sink in.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I don’t mind adding that in my own spiritual journey, in my young and foolish days, i was a hard-shell pre-V2 Anglo-Catholilc: rosary, St. Augustine’s Prayer Book, Anglican Breviary–the whole 9 yards.

And I didn’t really like the Green Book at all!