Traditionalism and the Death Penalty

[Brennan_Doherty]

Er…what?

I was born in the UK, and I studied in Ireland. You, know that catholic country where abortion is illegal.

Then I went to live in Italy for ten years. Italian society centers around the church and the family. Cities like Assisi will overwhelm you. In any city on any street you will can a statue of Our Lady. In schools they still have the cross on classroom walls. In every bar or restaurant you can see framed pictures of Padre Pio or John Paul. A country where 90% of the population are confirmed when they turn 13! Debased!?!?

Then there is Spain…when I visited there I saw more of the same.

Poland is a very devout country and through faith helped bring down Communism!

I only ever witness Europe-bashing from Americans, so I am going to assume you are american becasue I want to address this issue that keeps coming up:

It seems to me that there is a very disturbing group of Americans that from part of the Religious Right who are very anti-European. In fact they seem to regard their country as a “Holy Land” and their religious beliefs and their nationalism are inextricably intertwined. Well there is only one Holy Land and it’s a long way from the US.

Europe is not spiritually dark. Let us examine the nationalities of the Popes.

I see all Europeans.

Europe is not a good comparison?

Tell me which couintry has the highest divorce rate, in the world. It ain’t a European country.
nationmaster.com/graph/peo_div_rat-people-divorce-rate

And the really crazy thing is, that by defending my own home (Europe) I can almost guarantee an accusation of Anti-americanism. Can you resist the urge?

In the mind of the jingoist, if one does not consider america the greates country in the world and offr Americans defference, one is an Anti-American.

Loving your own country is equatable to hating theirs.

How **dare **you describe Europe as “debased state” indeed?

I would request a retraction and even an apology but I suspect that the reponse I will get (if any) will attempt to make the one slinging insults out to be the victim.

I am so tired of this Bill O’Reilly-esque rubbish.

I know this is a bit off topic but I’d really like to address this post. All I can say as an American is thank you and God bless you. Great post.

I too have heard the reiteration of the statement that America is the “greatest nation on the face of the earth” or even the greatest nation ever. And I always think, “Greatest at what?” Are we the greatest nation culturally, spiritually, or artistically? I really don’t see any evidence for that. As you pointed out, why don’t we think of nations like Ireland or Poland that outlaw abortion (and thus actually obey God’s laws) as greater? And what art have we produced compared to nations like Italy, France, or Spain?

Sure, we are the most powerful nation on earth in economic and military terms, but is that what truly makes a nation great?

I am very glad to hear your reports of Europe. I would also note that the locations una fides mentioned, England and Amsterdam, while European, became Protestant. I think you are going to find a distinction in nations that like the United States have been Protestant from their foundation, along with nations like England which turned Protestant, and other nations like Ireland and Poland which never became Protestant.

I also noticed that almost all the nations at the top of the divorce list you posted are Protestant. But if you have a religious system where you can just “divorce” the church you’re at and found your own when there is a disagreement I suppose it’s no surprise that this same pattern starts getting reflected in the populace.

I remember visiting Ireland and feeling almost instantly that I felt more at home there than in the U.S. I also noticed the religious statues along the roadside and even a nativity scene in the airport. Can anyone imagine what would happen if someone tried to put up a nativity scene at an aiport here?

I recognize of course that there are definite secular forces at work in the EU, of course. But I do hope and pray that the Faith, perhaps through Pope Benedict’s efforts and a liturgical revival, grows ever stronger in Europe (and that the Muslims don’t take over ).

By the way, know anyone over there who wants a roommate?

 

[una_fides]

I know this is a bit off topic but I’d really like to address this post. All I can say as an American is thank you and God bless you. Great post.

I too have heard the reiteration of the statement that America is the “greatest nation on the face of the earth” or even the greatest nation ever. And I always think, “Greatest at what?” Are we the greatest nation culturally, spiritually, or artistically? I really don’t see any evidence for that. As you pointed out, why don’t we think of nations like Ireland or Poland that outlaw abortion (and thus actually obey God’s laws) as greater? And what art have we produced compared to nations like Italy, France, or Spain?

Sure, we are the most powerful nation on earth in economic and military terms, but is that what truly makes a nation great?

I am very glad to hear your reports of Europe. I would also note that the locations una fides mentioned, England and Amsterdam, while European, became Protestant. I think you are going to find a distinction in nations that like the United States have been Protestant from their foundation, along with nations like England which turned Protestant, and other nations like Ireland and Poland which never became Protestant.

I also noticed that almost all the nations at the top of the divorce list you posted are Protestant. But if you have a religious system where you can just “divorce” the church you’re at and found your own when there is a disagreement I suppose it’s no surprise that this same pattern starts getting reflected in the populace.

I remember visiting Ireland and feeling almost instantly that I felt more at home there than in the U.S. I also noticed the religious statues along the roadside and even a nativity scene in the airport. Can anyone imagine what would happen if someone tried to put up a nativity scene at an aiport here?

I recognize of course that there are definite secular forces at work in the EU, of course. But I do hope and pray that the Faith, perhaps through Pope Benedict’s efforts and a liturgical revival, grows ever stronger in Europe (and that the Muslims don’t take over ).

By the way, know anyone over there who wants a roommate?

Good points on pointing out the differences between Protestant and Catholic countries. I never really put all that together before. I was more generalizing in my original comments on Europe, and it sounds to me that perhaps I did not have the full picture. But overall I would say that both Europe and the US are in a very grave state and are headed in the direction of a total moral breakdown of society, unless they repent and turn to God and embrace his Church.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Good points on pointing out the differences between Protestant and Catholic countries. I never really put all that together before. I was more generalizing in my original comments on Europe, and it sounds to me that perhaps I did not have the full picture. But overall I would say that both Europe and the US are in a very grave state and are headed in the direction of a total moral breakdown of society, unless they repent and turn to God and embrace his Church.

Yes, these differences have interested me in that I think they result in entirely different cultures and what they emphasize (the U.S. being the ultimate example of a Protestant nation, for instance). I remember talking to a Priest in Ireland who had grown up in England and he said the English people overall were “harder.” I suppose this shouldn’t be surprising in that when a nation overall rejects the Faith, they also reject the graces that come with the Faith.

I’ve also enjoyed reading about the differences between French and American culture.

I too hope and pray for a complete return of all of Europe to the Faith (and our nation’s conversion to it in the first place). There’s no question in my mind that, overall, as Cardinal Ratzinger stated, the past forty years have not been good for the Church.