Traditionalism and the Permanent Diaconate

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In perusing photo galleries on TLM sites, I’ve come across a handful of deacons that looked to be in their 50s and 60s. While they could just be late vocations in the transitional diaconate, I also wondered if they might be permanent deacons. This, of course, sparked the question of whether traditional communities would ever accept the revival of the permanent diaconate, or even whether they would be able to ordain them for themselves (as opposed to traditional minded diocesan deacons assisting at an indult) because of their adherence to the 1962 norms.

Do you think traditionalism has a place for the permanent diaconate? Why or why not?
 
Andreas Hofer:
In perusing photo galleries on TLM sites, I’ve come across a handful of deacons that looked to be in their 50s and 60s. While they could just be late vocations in the transitional diaconate, I also wondered if they might be permanent deacons. This, of course, sparked the question of whether traditional communities would ever accept the revival of the permanent diaconate, or even whether they would be able to ordain them for themselves (as opposed to traditional minded diocesan deacons assisting at an indult) because of their adherence to the 1962 norms.

Do you think traditionalism has a place for the permanent diaconate? Why or why not?
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I think that Traditionalism definately has a place for the permanent diaconate. I know it’s sort of a contradiction to usepermanent deacons in a Traditional sense (there were no permanent deacons in the pre-Vat. II Church), but they are of great use today.

This is my parish… It’s an FSSP apostolate in Atlanta. Without our permanent deacons we could not have Solemn High Mass on Sundays…
 
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Dropper:
I think that Traditionalism definately has a place for the permanent diaconate. I know it’s sort of a contradiction to usepermanent deacons in a Traditional sense (there were no permanent deacons in the pre-Vat. II Church), but they are of great use today.

This is my parish… It’s an FSSP apostolate in Atlanta. Without our permanent deacons we could not have Solemn High Mass on Sundays…
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You hit the nail on the head with permanent deacons being non-traditional, which is part of what sparked my question. Given that your parish uses permanent deacons, were they ordained for service to the FSSP, or are they “on loan” from the archdiocese?
 
Andreas Hofer:
You hit the nail on the head with permanent deacons being non-traditional, which is part of what sparked my question. Given that your parish uses permanent deacons, were they ordained for service to the FSSP, or are they “on loan” from the archdiocese?
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I am fairly new to the diocese and the parish, but from what I understant, they asked then Archbisop Donoghue to assign them permanently to St. Francis de Sales. As far as I know they were ordained as permanent deacons in the archdiocese.

I don’t think that the FSSP even would have a permanent diaconate program at all…
 
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Dropper:
. I know it’s sort of a contradiction to usepermanent deacons in a Traditional sense (there were no permanent deacons in the pre-Vat. II Church), but they are of great use today.
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Sort of. There were no\few real permanent diocesian deacons, but they still remained in the religious Orders.

Cardinal Giacomo Antonelli, the Secretary of State under Pope Piux IX, was a deacon, not a priest, for his whole life. He died in 1876.
 
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Brendan:
Sort of. There were no\few real permanent diocesian deacons, but they still remained in the religious Orders.

Cardinal Giacomo Antonelli, the Secretary of State under Pope Piux IX, was a deacon, not a priest, for his whole life. He died in 1876.
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I stand corrected. I knew I should have said few instead of none…
 
The deacons at St. Francis de Sales are both deacons for the Atlanta archdiocese and, as has been stated, requested assignment to the traditional parish. Note that both served at other diocesan parishes prior to making this request, and one had been ordained in another diocese and after several years of service there, transferred to the Atlanta archdiocese.

An application to enter the diocesan formation program for the permanent diaconate, while one is already registered as an active member of a traditional parish, might receive a different response than the one these two deacons were blessed to receive. I think that might be true in many dioceses.
 
Correct me but I believe that Deacons (not transitional) are an old Ministry dating from the early NT( I’ll go reread Acts again), NOT POST VII. Thus should be welcome in an T mass unless T massers consider themselves to modern to accept Deacons.
 
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Brendan:
Sort of. There were no\few real permanent diocesian deacons, but they still remained in the religious Orders.

Cardinal Giacomo Antonelli, the Secretary of State under Pope Piux IX, was a deacon, not a priest, for his whole life. He died in 1876.
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I believe St. Francis of Assisi was a deacon, too, not a priest.
 
hilde the dog:
Correct me but I believe that Deacons (not transitional) are an old Ministry dating from the early NT( I’ll go reread Acts again), NOT POST VII. Thus should be welcome in an T mass unless T massers consider themselves to modern to accept Deacons.
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It’s not a rejection of the idea of deacons or a denial of the permanent diaconate in the ancient Church as well as continuing to this day in the Eastern Church. The non-traditional aspect of the permanent diaconate is that the development of the Latin Church relagated the diaconate long ago to a (normally) transitional ministry on the way to the priesthood. The question is whether the permanent diaconate suits the sensibilities of the traditionalist community, especially given that many if not most American permanent deacons are married. I could see a non-celibate cleric, no matter of what level, not being well-received in some circles. “We’ve done without them for centuries, why bring them back?” That sort of thing.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
I believe St. Francis of Assisi was a deacon, too, not a priest.
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yes he was, I was specifcally refering to ‘permanent’ deacons after Trent though.
 
Andreas Hofer:
It’s not a rejection of the idea of deacons or a denial of the permanent diaconate in the ancient Church as well as continuing to this day in the Eastern Church. The non-traditional aspect of the permanent diaconate is that the development of the Latin Church relagated the diaconate long ago to a (normally) transitional ministry on the way to the priesthood. The question is whether the permanent diaconate suits the sensibilities of the traditionalist community, especially given that many if not most American permanent deacons are married. I could see a non-celibate cleric, no matter of what level, not being well-received in some circles. “We’ve done without them for centuries, why bring them back?” That sort of thing.
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So the Traditionalist don’t like tradition??? Yes, their is a role for them, not all men were called to be Priests before they were married. I will most likely never have children except by a holy miracle, but I seek to serve God and I can only become a Priest if my wife…And I don’t want that. You see the inherent contradiction in tradtionionalism.
 
hilde the dog:
So the Traditionalist don’t like tradition??? Yes, their is a role for them, not all men were called to be Priests before they were married. I will most likely never have children except by a holy miracle, but I seek to serve God and I can only become a Priest if my wife…And I don’t want that. You see the inherent contradiction in tradtionionalism.
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There isn’t really a contradiction. There was no permanent diaconate (on a large scale, certainly not diocesesan) before Vatican II. I don’t think that most Traditionalists have a problem at all with the permanent diaconate in and of itself.

Here’s a link to a Traditionalist message board where the topic was recently discussed. By its lack of posts you can see that it’s not really a hot-button issue with most Traditionalists.
 
hilde the dog:
So the Traditionalist don’t like tradition??? Yes, their is a role for them, not all men were called to be Priests before they were married. I will most likely never have children except by a holy miracle, but I seek to serve God and I can only become a Priest if my wife…And I don’t want that. You see the inherent contradiction in tradtionionalism.
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Traditional practice is different from historical practice. Tradition allows for organic development, meaning that “traditional” does not always denote “oldest.” Latin Catholics do not traditionally stand during the consecration, even though this practice existed for quite some time before the adoption of kneeling. Don’t fall into the trap of antiquarianism, thinking that oldest = best. Sometimes the Church does make changes for the better.

Now, as for me, I can see permanent deacons being valuable even in traditionalist circles, but I’m not going to claim that they play a traditional role in them.
 
St.Stephen was a deacon and the first martyr. St.Lawrence was a deacon too.
 
I could be wrong, but I’m pretty certain that what you’re referring to aren’t actually deacons but priests. Priests can act the role of “deacons” in solemn High Masses, so this is probably what you’re seeing in the pictures.
 
The permanent diaconate, including as married clergy, was approved at the Council of Trent and then again at Vatican II

God Bless
 
Anima Christi:
I could be wrong, but I’m pretty certain that what you’re referring to aren’t actually deacons but priests. Priests can act the role of “deacons” in solemn High Masses, so this is probably what you’re seeing in the pictures.
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I don’t think so, because these men are vested in dalmatics. While priests may perform the functions of a deacon, they are forbidden to vest as one (I can’t speak as to whether this happens or not, though).
 
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Deacon2006:
The permanent diaconate, including as married clergy, was approved at the Council of Trent and then again at Vatican II

God Bless
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Although you’ve piqued my interest and I have a copy of the canons sitting on my book shelf, could you tell me where Trent approved of married deacons?
 
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