Traditionalist Catholics and Russian Orthodox Old Believers

[MarcusAndreas]

(Note: By traditionalist I mean a Catholic who associates with and holds the views of groups including the SSPX but also other, more extreme groups, as opposed to a Catholic with a love for traditional devotion and liturgy but does not hold malice towards VII, the N/O, etc.)

In 1666 Patriarch Nikon of Moscow instituted liturgical reform to bring Russian liturgical practice up to speed with contemporary Greek practice. A group of RO’s revolted and formed the Old Believers, rejecting Nikonian liturgical reforms and keeping the old Russian liturgy and while some reunited centuries later (“United Believers”), most stayed in schism. Some went as far as to say that the entire priesthood was annihilated by Nikonian reforms, and only baptism (if that) remained.

In 1970 Patriarch Paul VI of Rome D) promulgated a new Missal to fulfill the conditions of liturgical reform discussed at Vatican II. A group of Catholics rejected these reforms and became Traditionalists, rejecting the Mass of Paul VI and keeping the old Latin liturgy, resulting in multiple schisms, and while some have retuned (FSSP), many remain in schism, and some go as far to say that the priesthood and Mass were invalidated by Pauline reforms, the Pope is an antipope, and only in their own sect(s) remain the sacraments.

Does anyone else see a parallel?

 

[ConstantineTG]

(Note: By traditionalist I mean a Catholic who associates with and holds the views of groups including the SSPX but also other, more extreme groups, as opposed to a Catholic with a love for traditional devotion and liturgy but does not hold malice towards VII, the N/O, etc.)

In 1666 Patriarch Nikon of Moscow instituted liturgical reform to bring Russian liturgical practice up to speed with contemporary Greek practice. A group of RO’s revolted and formed the Old Believers, rejecting Nikonian liturgical reforms and keeping the old Russian liturgy and while some reunited centuries later (“United Believers”), most stayed in schism. Some went as far as to say that the entire priesthood was annihilated by Nikonian reforms, and only baptism (if that) remained.

In 1970 Patriarch Paul VI of Rome D) promulgated a new Missal to fulfill the conditions of liturgical reform discussed at Vatican II. A group of Catholics rejected these reforms and became Traditionalists, rejecting the Mass of Paul VI and keeping the old Latin liturgy, resulting in multiple schisms, and while some have retuned (FSSP), many remain in schism, and some go as far to say that the priesthood and Mass were invalidated by Pauline reforms, the Pope is an antipope, and only in their own sect(s) remain the sacraments.

Does anyone else see a parallel?

Don’t forget they are both attached to an “Old Calendar”, like the Julian Calendar, or 1962

 

[Monica4316]

I think there are some parallels but also some differences; specifically: many of these Catholics aren’t against the NO itself but the abuses that came after the VII… also it’s possible to be a “Latin Mass” attending Catholic but not be in schism, and in good standing with the Church, since the TLM has not been abrogated, neither has the 1962 missal whereas in the case of the Russian Orthodox church, the previous missal might have been abrogated (?).

 

[MarcusAndreas]

The more moderate traditionalists are not intrinsically anti-N/O, but the farther right will claim it’s intrinsically deficient and once you’re about to fall off the edge of the earth they’ll claim the entire missal and rites are invalid.

 

[Paul_Infirdigno]

Wait, random question but is calling yourself Roman Catholic, or Traditional Catholic mean you love the traditional liturgy ect. ?

 

[TrueLight]

I’m tired of these daily, anti-traditionalist posts.

 

[jwinch2]

I’m tired of these daily, anti-traditionalist posts.

Then why read them?

 

[jwinch2]

Does anyone else see a parallel?

Actually, yes I do when you present it that way. Also, I was unaware of the information you provided regarding the Russian Orthodox Church. Thanks for sharing that…

 

[andrewstx]

Wait, random question but is calling yourself Roman Catholic, or Traditional Catholic mean you love the traditional liturgy ect. ?

I see the Old Believers more technically correct as being sort of like the FFSC (?).

They are both in schism from their mother churches.

The Old Ritualists largely do not have priests or Divine Liturgy, thier churches end at the iconostas with nothing but a wall behind.

AFAIK all Russians, both OR and Othodox go by the Julian calendar.

I beleive the Old Ritualists have one parish in the US, I think in PA.

 

[ChadS]

I see the Old Believers more technically correct as being sort of like the FFSC (?).

They are both in schism from their mother churches.

The Old Ritualists largely do not have priests or Divine Liturgy, thier churches end at the iconostas with nothing but a wall behind.

AFAIK all Russians, both OR and Othodox go by the Julian calendar.

I beleive the Old Ritualists have one parish in the US, I think in PA.

I think they have a few more parishes than one but not many more. I believe in the united states the parishes go months without seeing a priest and even longer before a bishop can come through to administer various sacraments. Their parishes are extremely small made up of only a few families each. I think their biggest concentration of members is in Russia, where they tend to live in small rural and isolated areas.

ChadS

 

[TrueLight]

Then why read them?

For the same reason, you end up reading posts you don’t want to read.

 

[jwinch2]

For the same reason, you click on threads.

I have learned to at least try to avoid topics on here that I know are going to annoy me. If there are topics such as this that are starting to bother you, I would consider avoiding them for a time. This isn’t supposed to be a place you come to get annoyed, at least in my view.

 

[JM3]

The more moderate traditionalists are not intrinsically anti-N/O, but the farther right will claim it’s intrinsically deficient and once you’re about to fall off the edge of the earth they’ll claim the entire missal and rites are invalid.

americancatholictruthsociety.com/docs/TRENT/trent22.htm

THE COUNCIL OF TRENT​

Session XXII - The sixth under the Supreme Pontiff, Pius IV, celebrated on the seventeenth day of September, 1562

CHAPTER IV
THE CANON OF THE MASS

And since it is becoming that holy things be administered in a holy manner, and of all things this sacrifice is the most holy, the Catholic Church, to the end that it might be worthily and reverently offered and received, instituted many centuries ago the holy canon,[14] which is so free from error that it contains nothing that does not in the highest degree savor of a certain holiness and piety and raise up to God the minds of those who offer. For it consists partly of the very words of the Lord, partly of the traditions of the Apostles, and also of pious regulations of holy pontiffs.

 

[TrueLight]

I have learned to at least try to avoid topics on here that I know are going to annoy me. If there are topics such as this that are starting to bother you, I would consider avoiding them for a time. This isn’t supposed to be a place you come to get annoyed, at least in my view.

Don’t worry. I am already doing that. It still doesn’t make it right. And that’s all I’m saying to you regarding this.

 

[archangel04]

Then why read them?

Because sometimes you don’t know what you are reading until after the fact
Last time I checked this was traditional forum to discuss to love for the old mass.

 

[archangel04]

Don’t worry. I am already doing that. It still doesn’t make it right. And that’s all I’m saying to you regarding this.

Just let it go. The same poison that caused to to temporarily fall out of the Church. Just take a breather and pray.

 

[TrueLight]

Just let it go. The same poison that caused to to temporarily fall out of the Church. Just take a breather and pray.

Oh I did, LOL. Right now I’m working on helping a CAF friend with some apologetics for a protestant interested in converting.

I try not to hold onto things.

 

[jwinch2]

Because sometimes you don’t know what you are reading until after the fact
Last time I checked this was traditional forum to discuss to love for the old mass.

First of all, I was not responding to you so you can save your sarcastic eye rolling smiley for someone else. TrueLight knows me well enough through our many conversations to know that while I was direct with her, there was no harm intended. If she does not feel that way, she is more than capable of standing up for herself and letting me know which I would certainly hope she would do.

Secondly, the title was a bit of a giveaway as are most on this topic, as they tend to include words such as “traditionalist” or “SSPX” in them. Third, it only takes about two sentences to realize what the thread is about and little X at the top of the page to close it is pretty easy to use. Fourth, if the thread is off topic for this forum, ask the moderators to move it or shut it down.

Pretty simple really.

 

[Monica4316]

The more moderate traditionalists are not intrinsically anti-N/O, but the farther right will claim it’s intrinsically deficient and once you’re about to fall off the edge of the earth they’ll claim the entire missal and rites are invalid.

I just see it as - either they are in communion with Rome (FSSP) or not (sedevacantist, etc).

 

[archangel04]

First of all, I was not responding to you so you can save your sarcastic eye rolling smiley for someone else. TrueLight knows me well enough through our many conversations to know that while I was direct with her, there was no harm intended. If she does not feel that way, she is more than capable of standing up for herself and letting me know which I would certainly hope she would do.

Secondly, the title was a bit of a giveaway as are most on this topic, as they tend to include words such as “traditionalist” or “SSPX” in them. Third, it only takes about two sentences to realize what the thread is about and little X at the top of the page to close it is pretty easy to use. Fourth, if the thread is off topic for this forum, ask the moderators to move it or shut it down.

Pretty simple really.

No you weren’t responding to me since I hadn’t typed anything before that, so that’s a given, but it’s a public forum and any member here in good standing has the ability to respond to any quote or comment. If you have a problem with that then take it up with the mods.

Secondly, the title reads “Traditionalist Catholic and Russian Orthodox Old Believers” prior to this thread I had no idea who the Old believers were and I was curious. So to me it was not has “simple has that” but I guess I am not has intelligent as you are. I no longer wish to discuss on this matter because I am derailing the thread and that is not my intention. Oh and is that what the red X if for? Now I really feel ignorant. Good day!