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cyberwolf001
Guest
Okay moving on from the debate here forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=139021
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Do you have sufficient links, Cyberwolf? You had said that you would do some searching on your own. Do you need more? Let me know.
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cyberwolf001
Guest
So far reading through the ones you’ve sent me I haven’t seen anything I’d call overly smug or arogant…
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CatholicNick
Guest
I’m sorry… But I’d describe many of the “orthodox” Catholics posting on this forum, as ‘smug’ and ‘arrogant’.
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carl36
Guest
Could that be interpreted as that you think Traditionalists and ‘orthodox’ Catholics lack humility?I’m sorry… But I’d describe many of the “orthodox” Catholics posting on this forum, as ‘smug’ and ‘arrogant’.
To me this sounds like rash judgement and that is a sin you know.
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CatholicNick
Guest
Do not put words in my mouth. I did not issue a blanket statement applying to all ‘orthodox’ and traditional Catholics - I wasnt even referring to traditional Catholics. Just as JKirk doesent apply his theories about arrogance and smugness to all “traditionalists” who post on this forum.Could that be interpreted as that you think Traditionalists and ‘orthodox’ Catholics lack humility?
To me this sounds like rash judgement and that is a sin you know.
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Rykell
Guest
I remember reading this post with deep sadness. It does reaffirm that it is not the TLM liturgy that causes concern, but the devotees.
Remember the hippies chanting in front of LBJ"S Whitehouse?
(Hey, hey, LBJ…?) I have a new one for my Traditionalist brothers and sisters who spout such poison:
Hey, hey you who can’t keep your emotions at bay,
how many have you kept from the TLM today?
It is attitudes such as yours that kept me away for 7 years. Thanks for robbing me of the best experiences of my Lord for so long by your slander.
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ncjohn
Guest
While I certainly wouldn’t make such a judgment on any individual, or assign it to a group as a whole, it does unfortunately appear to be far too true of far too many who self-proclaim themselves to be “traditionalist”.
And while those responding can be just as self-convinced, my experience has been that it is usually as defense to being attacked as somehow “inferior”. It doesn’t make the response any more lovely, but it at least does help to understand it.
[Edited by moderator]
There is an old saying that the only thing worse than an individual with a faulty premise is a group operating from the same faulty premise. “Groupthink” has been behind most of the atrocities the world has seen as it quickly becomes the “conventional wisdom” to those within the group, and further allows them to discount views from anyone outside the group. This creates a dangerous “inbreeding” that spawns contempt and exclusion–the very things that Jesus so warned us about and which were so present in the Pharisees of his day.
I just cannot find any rational reason for one to be trying to separate Christ’s Church into competing factions. St Paul summed it up very clearly in 1 Corinthians what the dangers are in doing so, for we come to worshipping the messenger and the accepted form of the faction over the One for whom the worship is intended.
Saying that one prefers the TLM or NO liturgical style is fine and wonderful. We are each entitled to that. Even thinking that that in some way makes us *better *is to be standing off to the side thanking God for not making us like those “others”.
And since the Church has spoken to the extent of saying that each is a valid liturgy of the Church, for a “traditionalist” to be judging otherwise is to be proclaiming one’s self to be the defender of the Church while simultaneously standing outside her statements. Since the “Tradition” of the Church is that all must align with the gospel and the teachings of Jesus, putting obstacles in the path of those who are doing their best to try to follow him would seem to be tantamount to placing an order for millstones for their necks.
I find the animosity on both “sides” odious and sad, and extremely unbecoming to a Church claiming to be based entirely on the Prince of Peace.
And while those responding can be just as self-convinced, my experience has been that it is usually as defense to being attacked as somehow “inferior”. It doesn’t make the response any more lovely, but it at least does help to understand it.
[Edited by moderator]
There is an old saying that the only thing worse than an individual with a faulty premise is a group operating from the same faulty premise. “Groupthink” has been behind most of the atrocities the world has seen as it quickly becomes the “conventional wisdom” to those within the group, and further allows them to discount views from anyone outside the group. This creates a dangerous “inbreeding” that spawns contempt and exclusion–the very things that Jesus so warned us about and which were so present in the Pharisees of his day.
I just cannot find any rational reason for one to be trying to separate Christ’s Church into competing factions. St Paul summed it up very clearly in 1 Corinthians what the dangers are in doing so, for we come to worshipping the messenger and the accepted form of the faction over the One for whom the worship is intended.
Saying that one prefers the TLM or NO liturgical style is fine and wonderful. We are each entitled to that. Even thinking that that in some way makes us *better *is to be standing off to the side thanking God for not making us like those “others”.
And since the Church has spoken to the extent of saying that each is a valid liturgy of the Church, for a “traditionalist” to be judging otherwise is to be proclaiming one’s self to be the defender of the Church while simultaneously standing outside her statements. Since the “Tradition” of the Church is that all must align with the gospel and the teachings of Jesus, putting obstacles in the path of those who are doing their best to try to follow him would seem to be tantamount to placing an order for millstones for their necks.
I find the animosity on both “sides” odious and sad, and extremely unbecoming to a Church claiming to be based entirely on the Prince of Peace.
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bear06
Guest
This thread is like a bad accident - I had to look. Really?! Do we have to have this one? There as smug people in all corners of our Church. I don’t think that anyone has totally corned the market. This thread is going to get people little to nowhere in the quest for a Universal Indult or to heal the divisions in the Church. Can we not let the king of distraction distract us for once?
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JLSacred
Guest
I’m a traditionalist Catholic and I hope I’m not smug. I prefer more traditional worship. I agree, there are smug people from all philosophical standpoints.
I attend a more Traditional, Novus Ordo Mass and shy away from newer innovations that are popular in some places. I hope I’m not smug though.
I attend a more Traditional, Novus Ordo Mass and shy away from newer innovations that are popular in some places. I hope I’m not smug though.
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Jean_Anthony
Guest
This thread is closed. Thank you to all who participated.
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