Traditionalists (SSPX) Catholics, Why not right?

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The SSPX’s starting conditions for Rome were the following:[to bring unity]
  1. give every Roman Rite priest the right to choose which Mass he wants to use[this would not need the bishops approval]
    2.Declare the excommunication of the bishops and priests of the SSPX null and void.
 
Catholic Eagle:
Have you guys ever seen this article? It says that Cardinal Ratzinger told this person that he can attend the SSPX’s masses if they do not want to separate themselves from the Roman Pontiff. heres the article: http://www.oltyn.com/sspx-obl.htm
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" I have been attending the Traditional Mass in independent and SSPX chapels for more than 23 years, and I never once met anyone in these chapels, priest or layman, who “intends to separate himself from the Roman Pontiff”. The prime motivation for myself, my family, and others who attend these chapels is to adhere to the Latin Tridentine Mass, and to adhere to the traditional teaching and practice of the Catholic Church throughout the centuries – at a time when our Church leaders are giving us stones instead of bread."

The above is a quote from the article on the web referred to by Catholic Eagle. I think one must be careful about their interpretation of this article. First, the author says he’s never met anyone at an independent or SSPX chapel, priest or laymen, who intends to separate himself from the Roman Pontiff. Then he takes a jab at the Roman Pontiff - “The prime motivation for myself, my family, and others who attend these chapels is to adhere to the Latin Tridentine Mass, and to adhere to the traditional teaching and practice of the Catholic Church throughout the centuries – at a time when our Church leaders are giving us stones instead of bread.”
He judges the Church, the men appointed by the Roman Pontiff as Bishops, and the Novus Ordo. It sounds like a thinly veiled attempt to say that the Tridentine Mass is in some way superior to the Novus Ordo and that no Pope has the right to make changes to that which was codified by any previous Pope concerning the Liturgy. It seems like the author is saying he knows better than the Pope or the hierarchy when it comes to matters concerning the Liturgy.

I agree that the Novus Ordo, the way it’s presently celebrated in many places, leaves a lot to be desired. I have always seemed to be able to move between the Tridentine and Novus Ordo masses very easily.

Lastly, like it or not, we as Catholics have an obligation to be obedient to our Bishops if we consider ourselves to be in communion with the Church. That doesn’t mean we should remain silent in the face of error, but that we must work within the system, according to Canon Law and other documents of the Church, to have our issues addressed. Simply put, we can’t say “we’re obedient to the Roman Pontiff” and “we’re not going to be obedient to our Bishop because he won’t allow the Tridentine Mass.” at the same time.
 
Catholic Eagle:
The SSPX’s starting conditions for Rome were the following:[to bring unity]
  1. give every Roman Rite priest the right to choose which Mass he wants to use[this would not need the bishops approval]
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In the (IMO unlikely) event that a significant number of priests would opt for the TLM, this would lead to parishes needing to identify themselves as “RC TLM Rite” or “RC Roman Rite” (or some other term to denote a “NO” parish). I hope it never comes to that.

I think the Church has already bent as far as it needs to, in the name of “unity” for a very small percentage of the flock. A disproportionate amount of fuss and bother has been invested in this issue already.

As to voiding the excommunications, why? Is disobedience to be tolerated, encouraged? I think not.
 
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aByzantineCatho:
My take is very simple.

FACTS:
  1. The SSPX are schismatic. However, there masses are VALID but illicit.
  2. Most Novus Ordo masses I have been too (especially in Florida) are illicit. Whether a nun gives the homily or the Eucharist bread taste sweet there is ALWAYS something illicit going on.
So, my conscience tells me that I would rather go to an illicit SSPX mass then go to an illicit Novus Ordo mass.

I will be happy to stand in front of Jesus on this issue.

God Bless!
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You make an excellent point. I have a friend who attends Mass at a SSPX parish for the same reason. The closest diocesan parish to him consistently exhibits liturgical abuses that call into question the liceity of the Mass, if not its validity.
 
What makes a mass licit and illicit, valid and invalid as judged by Mother Church may not be the same as the man in the pew.

An Mass is ilicit if the priest (though a valid priest) does not have faculties to celebrate a Mass in that particular Diocese.

A Mass is both valid and licit if the Eucharist is confected by a priest who has faculties in the diocese, no matter how many abuses occur elsewhere in the liturgy (unfortunately).
 
It is important to note that the SSPX priest through his illicit yet valid consecration is committing a VERY grave sin. The SSPX Mass is not just an unsanctioned alternative. When you attend that Mass, you are watching a validly ordained priest violate his holy orders and commit grave sin. Not exactly a wholesome prospect.

In a way, you could say that saying a Mass when excommunicated is the ultimate form of liturgical abuse.
 
I think the matter if licit and illicit gets even fuzzier when there are parishes such as this, that are technically valid and licit, but are in reality, in material schism.

stjoan.com/er1fr.htm

Again, the SSPX is not blameless here. SSPX Bishop Williamson I honestly think has sanity issues, and the SSPX Bishops and clergy it seems are too infected with pride, because Rome did offer them a generous deal to be regularised again. But that said, with parishes like in the link I posted above, we can not be too sure where valid and licit ends and invalid yet someone licit begins. It is little wonder why some Catholics go past their breaking point and end up in schism.
 
  1. The SSPX are schismatic. However, there masses are VALID but illicit.
  2. Most Novus Ordo masses I have been too (especially in Florida) are illicit. Whether a nun gives the homily or the Eucharist bread taste sweet there is ALWAYS something illicit going on.
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So, my conscience tells me that I would rather go to an illicit SSPX mass then go to an illicit Novus Ordo mass.
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I will be happy to stand in front of Jesus on this issue.
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I would too!!
 
It’s a shame that Catholics are made to feel that they would rather attend a valid but illic Mass…But, I do understand…Sometimes I feel that way, myself.
 
Going to a SSPX Mass or chapel is not shcism. The Mass is valid and licit.
 
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dizzy_dave:
Last year my wife and I were almost duped into joining a Traditional Latin Mass church Ran by the SSPX they are not in accord with Rome. This is a Schismatic group. My question is on the surface thay seem to be better more loyal Catholics than a lot of the Novus Ordo Catholics, They have great devotion to the Rosary, Brown Scapular and Eucharistic Adoration, these are powerful devotions. I don’t see how one can sit before Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament for an hour on a regular basis and not be told or be unaware they belong to a Schismatic group, how is that possible?
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IS ANYONE HERE ACTUALLY FAMILIAR WITH THE SSPX??? Seems not, with all do respect. They do follow Pope John Paul II, and are not seperated from Rome. In the beginning, it was thought that the whole group was excommunicated, and in schism. This in no longer the beleief in Rome. Lets get up-to-date here. Cardinal Ratzinger himself and others in the vatican have said the SSPX is not outside the church.
PERSONALLY (which I don’t, because I have the Tridentine Latin Mass of INDULT near my home, approved by the Archdiocese of New York, the Parishes of Saint Agnes in Manhattan, and Our Lady of Mount Carmel in Manhattan) If the regular Indult Latin mass is ever taken away from the two local parishes of mine, and I would have no other choice then to attend the Novus Ordo I would IF THE LOCAL PARISHES around my area did not have so much liturgical abuses. BUT, since they do, I WOULD then ONLY attend the SSPX Mass.
The web-site for the SSPX (in which one can read of their allegience to the Holy Father Pope John Paul II) Is:
www.sspx.org
 
I think the demand for the latin mass is grossly overstated. In our diocese, we can get permission to have one most anytime, but there are very few, because no one was interested in having one. As far as the sspx people, I’m going to let the theologians figure that all out. I’m not an expert in the internal workings of the church. God bless.
 
SSPX is no longer is schism? Since they were considered schismatic, does anyone have any documentation that this is no longer the case? Remember that it is up to Rome to determine who is in communion with them, not SSPX.
 
The SSPX is straddling the fence. If John Paul II is the valid Pope, then they must recognize his authority. Archbishop Lefebvre committed a schismatic act by consecrating the Bishops. He shouldn’t have done it without Papal permission. END OF STORY.

Since they recognize the Pope, and profess filial devotion to him, it is absolutely necessary for the society to do whatever it takes to reconcile.

The four bishops are definitely in schism. I think it is possible that the priests may not be though. Depends on whether they agree with the illicit consecrations.
Peace,
Ryan
 
The SSPX priests are in schism as well. They could always seek to reunite themselves to Rome, but that would require leaving the SSPX which is itself a schismatic organization.

I always find it amusing that a great number of SSPX adherents freely admit that they attend confession once per year with a regular diocesan priest because they realize that their SSPX priest likely does not have the faculty to absolve sins.

I still don’t understand why some Catholics will attend an SSPX Mass. Is it good to watch a priest commit a mortal sin in the very act of transubstantiation? Who would want to observe the commission of such evil?

Indeed, the SSPX represents the master stroke of satan. While the orthodox faithful fret about the liberal influences within the Church, satan is behind them weakening the Church through groups like SSPX.
 
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ServusChristi:
In response to this, the Pope issued the encylical *Ecclesia Dei *which extended an indult for the old Latin Mass and subsquently the FSSP (Fraternal Society of Saint Peter) was created. The FSSP is the established Priestly society (with full approval from the Vatican and the endorsement of John Paul II) that offers the traditional Mass according to the Ecclesia Dei indult.
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Here’s the encyclical Ecclesia Dei:
ourladyswarriors.org/dissent/eccldei.htm

A canonical study of the schism:
ourladyswarriors.org/articles/lefebvre.htm
 
Charlemagne said:
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He judges the Church, the men appointed by the Roman Pontiff as Bishops, and the Novus Ordo. It sounds like a thinly veiled attempt to say that the Tridentine Mass is in some way superior to the Novus Ordo and that no Pope has the right to make changes to that which was codified by any previous Pope concerning the Liturgy. It seems like the author is saying he knows better than the Pope or the hierarchy when it comes to matters concerning the Liturgy.

I agree that the Novus Ordo, the way it’s presently celebrated in many places, leaves a lot to be desired. I have always seemed to be able to move between the Tridentine and Novus Ordo masses very easily.

Lastly, like it or not, we as Catholics have an obligation to be obedient to our Bishops if we consider ourselves to be in communion with the Church. That doesn’t mean we should remain silent in the face of error, but that we must work within the system, according to Canon Law and other documents of the Church, to have our issues addressed. Simply put, we can’t say “we’re obedient to the Roman Pontiff” and “we’re not going to be obedient to our Bishop because he won’t allow the Tridentine Mass.” at the same time.
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Amen to that, Charlemagne. We need to work within the boundaries of what the Church deems as Its “Chain of Command”. That is how order and strength in unity are brought forth. Thanks for your answer.
 
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