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Iohannes
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To clarify something, The Feeynites are generally not traditionalist and are generally in communion with Rome, infact the first Feeynite groups to reconcile celebrated the Novus Ordo Missae in English.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
A Latin priest can … with indult.
The Byzantine priest can because he is given permission to do so, not because it is an inalienable right bestowed upon him as priest. It is a legislative judgment of the Pope, just as are all the laws governing the dispensation of the sacraments.
The Latin Rite certainly can have a universal indult, but I believe that would bring us to the non-uniformity of liturgy that we had prior to Quo Primum. In the 16th century, appearantly there was such lack in uniformity that it was decided to standardize the Roman Rite. Plurality of rites is good. Too much plurality is problematic, as it may lead to a lack of unity.
I’m all for the Pope giving an indult in a specific diocese, vetoing the local Bishop on a case-by-case basis. I believe he’s already done so. However, a universal indult may be more divisive, non-uniform than is necessary. Even with the indult in a specific diocese, there are restrictions. In otherwords, it isn’t universal (allowed in every parish) even within a diocese that allows the 1962 Mass in some locations.
If the Pope decides for a universal indult, I will assume he knows more about the details of the matter than I do, and defer to his judgment, just as I do now with regard to him NOT implementing a universal indult.
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Iohannes
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We already have non-uniformity in the Novus Ordo Missae. In regards to langauge, it is rare that churches use the liturgical language latin, and VII said that latin is to be preserved in Latin rites. We have spanish, english, vietnamese, korean, german, polish Masses. We know have ethnic Masses suited for each ethnicity. With all the options in the Novus Ordo Missae, there are 3 different penitiential opitions and add that with 4 Eucharistic prayers along with options in the lectionary. Not only that, we have dancers, EMHC on the sanctuary or off the sanctuary. Some places kneel for communion, other places does not. In certain countries there is no communion-in-hand in others there is not. Some parishes have specialized Masses for teens that are suited for teens and no one else. We have places that use bow during the words “Et incarnatus…” some places do not.
Oh yeah, some places hold hands during the Pater Noster while some places do not.
To simply put it the 1962 Missal is the rock of stability and it will bring more uniformity if a universal indult is granted and it become widespread.
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misericordie
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Bishops who remove the Indult, are just leading thousands to go solely to the SSPX Masses, etc. In my case, and all my friends(by the way, we are young, not elderly, I am 32, others are 20 somethings and in their thirties) IF the Archdiocese of New York(under Cardinal Egan:yawn: ) were to revoke the indult, not only would thousands of Traditional catholics as myself would withdraw ALL money to the collection in Parishes(many other Traditionalists are very well to do$) and to any Bishop's "appeal" for money, but we would SOLELY!!!!!!!!! THEN ONLY and permentantly attend the SSPX Masses, until the indult were put back. However, we all know this major Metropolitan Archdioceses is SMARTER than that, and they will leave the Indult as currently is, thanks to Cardinal John O'Connor who BEGAN the indult(rest in peace). Actually we wish the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter were GIVEN the administration of a parish here in Manhattan, in this great Archdiocese.
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itsjustdave1988
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At what cost? My wife would never have converted if the 1962 Roman Missal was still the normative liturgy of the Church. She simply would not have understood it.
The 1962 Roman Mass is a beautiful expression of Catholic tradition. However, I believe it to be “solid food” when the world can barely consume milk. A universal indult would lead to abuse of the 1962 Roman Mass as we already have with the 1975 edition of the Roman Missal.
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deogratias
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Nonsense - before 1962 all converts that I know of converted because they knew the Catholic Church held the deposit of truth, not because of the liturgy. I was one of them. That should be the reason people convert today also.
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itsjustdave1988
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It’s not nonsense. Let’s presume I know more about my wife’s faith journey than you do.
Many of the converts in our parish wandered in and watched things for quite some time prior to taking that next step. If one does not remotely understand the liturgy, if the liturgy has no appeal to them at all, they won’t likely come back to learn more about the doctrine.
I know of many converts to the faith in our parish who would not have even imagined taking that next step if they wandered into a traditional Mass. It’s solid food, no doubt. It is certain that my wife and many others would not have been able to digest this solid food. I’m glad that you could. Yet, I’m equally certain that for others, it would most definitely be a stumbling block.
That’s precisely why the FSSP Mass here in Colorado Springs is quite a small gathering despite it being around for a while, compared to many other parishes in C. Springs. The growth rate is simply not happening. I’m sure elsewhere, in quite liberal diocese, that would likely NOT be the case. However, in a conservative diocese like Colorado Springs, the faithful are not starving for the traditional Latin Mass.
Furthermore, I don’t suspect there are many catechumens being drawn by the FSSP Mass here in C. Springs. For example, there are as many in my parishes daily Mass attendance as I’ve seen in the Sunday noon FSSP Mass.
On the contrary, every year in my parish, we have from 30 to 50 converts being baptized or confirmed into the Catholic faith adding to over 6000 members in the parish.
Things would definitely be different in a liberal diocese. However, I’m relating my experience here in C. Springs.
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deogratias
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Before the FFSP were moved to Fountain, most inconvenient, it had a large attendance. For some in the north of COS, it is just as easy to drive to LIttleton for the FFSP there for one thing.
The FFSP has two Masses each Sunday - when I was going to the FFSP in COS it was at St. Mary’s and we had 200 to 250 each week. Sure that is a smaller percentage but back to what I was saying, is that when it was the only Mass, it did not deter converts, because it was the teaching of the Church that drew us to Catholicism. - my comment had nothing to do with your wife’s personal faith journey but your comment “at what cost” and the implication that more people convert now because of the current liturgy.
I taught RCIA for a couple of years - it was difficult for me because there was a lot that they seemed to not want to bother to teach. What I found so disappointing though after a year of instruction and baptism, we did not see about 50% of them again.
I have a friend who converted about 2 years ago. She told me they never told her she had to attend Mass every Sunday or that ABC was a sin. I am only mentioning this (and it has nothing to do with you personally or your wife) because sometimes I think we are making false converts wtih high numbers of converts but not all being true conversions or that their catachesis is so poor that they become Catholics in name only.
The FFSP has two Masses each Sunday - when I was going to the FFSP in COS it was at St. Mary’s and we had 200 to 250 each week. Sure that is a smaller percentage but back to what I was saying, is that when it was the only Mass, it did not deter converts, because it was the teaching of the Church that drew us to Catholicism. - my comment had nothing to do with your wife’s personal faith journey but your comment “at what cost” and the implication that more people convert now because of the current liturgy.
I taught RCIA for a couple of years - it was difficult for me because there was a lot that they seemed to not want to bother to teach. What I found so disappointing though after a year of instruction and baptism, we did not see about 50% of them again.
I have a friend who converted about 2 years ago. She told me they never told her she had to attend Mass every Sunday or that ABC was a sin. I am only mentioning this (and it has nothing to do with you personally or your wife) because sometimes I think we are making false converts wtih high numbers of converts but not all being true conversions or that their catachesis is so poor that they become Catholics in name only.
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deogratias
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PS: How long have you been in COS, Dave? When I lived there, (pre-Bishop Sheridan), I thought it was a pretty liberal Diocese - actually I lived in Manitou and the Mass there and in Old Colorado City drove me up the wall it was so liberal. I found Corpus Christi, at least at that time to my liking for daily Mass, especially when Fr. Rawley Myers was still around - what a great priest he is.
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itsjustdave1988
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I agree catechesis within RCIA is terribly lacking. When I was a sponsor, I facilitated an additional doctrinal study group to supplement the program. Being a catechist myself, I know that some can consume solid food earlier than others. Sometimes it takes more than a year. I think we rush through the “inquiry” period during RCIA, almost with a mob mentality. Some need several years of inquiry in my opinion. My wife took 7 years of inquiry and two attempts at RCIA before she converted. She was an atheist. I know of another that studied Catholicism so thoroughly (used to be an anti-Catholic) prior to joining RCIA that I think he could have taught Catholicism better than the RCIA team. Everyone has different talents, different needs, and different faith journeys.
The indult Mass at St. Joseph’s (which is only 20 minutes from St. Mary’s) that I attended a couple month’s back had about 50 people (noon Sunday). They now have an 8am and noon Sunday Mass, as well as a daily mass. I guess I don’t find the extra 20 minute drive that inconvenient. Sounds like were pretty blessed, compared to others, to have an indult Mass so frequently and within decent drive time to the bulk of the population of the Diocese. In comparison, it takes me longer to go to the fancy movie theater on Powers Blvd from my home. I also commute 1 hr to Cheyenne Mountain every day from the USAF Academy, and 1 hr back again, so I guess I’m used to driving. Yet, from the USAF Academy, it would take me over 2 hours to get to Littleton.
Manitou Springs and Old Colorado City are a bit more liberal than my parish at St. Patrick’s, I think. They remind me of the Independent Republic of Boulder
I attended St. Patrick’s from 1995 to 1999 before I went to Japan, then returned from 2002 to present. It was less conservative under Fr. Don and Bishop Hanifen than it is now under Fr. Brad and Bishop Sheridan, but compared to the horror stories I’ve read on these forums, I’d say it was still pretty conservative.
The indult Mass at St. Joseph’s (which is only 20 minutes from St. Mary’s) that I attended a couple month’s back had about 50 people (noon Sunday). They now have an 8am and noon Sunday Mass, as well as a daily mass. I guess I don’t find the extra 20 minute drive that inconvenient. Sounds like were pretty blessed, compared to others, to have an indult Mass so frequently and within decent drive time to the bulk of the population of the Diocese. In comparison, it takes me longer to go to the fancy movie theater on Powers Blvd from my home. I also commute 1 hr to Cheyenne Mountain every day from the USAF Academy, and 1 hr back again, so I guess I’m used to driving. Yet, from the USAF Academy, it would take me over 2 hours to get to Littleton.
Manitou Springs and Old Colorado City are a bit more liberal than my parish at St. Patrick’s, I think. They remind me of the Independent Republic of Boulder
I attended St. Patrick’s from 1995 to 1999 before I went to Japan, then returned from 2002 to present. It was less conservative under Fr. Don and Bishop Hanifen than it is now under Fr. Brad and Bishop Sheridan, but compared to the horror stories I’ve read on these forums, I’d say it was still pretty conservative.
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itsjustdave1988
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I don’t consider a poorly catechized convert or cradle Catholic a “false convert.” Sure, I’d love them to be better educated in their professed faith, but if they attend Mass, they’re on the way of salvation. It is better that they are hearing Scripture, receiving a valid Eucharist, and have at least the hope of learning the teachings of our Holy Religion in the homily than remaining an atheist, indifferent, a heretic, or a schismatic.
Do many converts fall away from Catholicism? Maybe. So do many cradle Catholics. Yet, poorly catechized converts are no less authentically Catholic than our baptized children who have yet to receive much catechesis.
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deogratias
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Well certainly no one could say your wife converted in haste LOL
I must admit I am not familiar with St. Patricks or even its location.
Perhaps “false” convert was too strong a term. What I mean is if one converts not knowing what is truly expected of them and what the Church truly teaches, they may be convering under false or lack of information.
If the Church (especially in the U.S.) is so readily granting declarations of nullity because someone says they did not fully understand the sacrament of matrimony what else don’t some understand. I think we (all of us) need more Catachesis from the altar as well - not just catachumens - as you found out in your RCIA experience too - it is lacking and all we hear from the altar is what I call the Beatles Mantra “*all we need is love”. *
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I must admit I am not familiar with St. Patricks or even its location.
Perhaps “false” convert was too strong a term. What I mean is if one converts not knowing what is truly expected of them and what the Church truly teaches, they may be convering under false or lack of information.
If the Church (especially in the U.S.) is so readily granting declarations of nullity because someone says they did not fully understand the sacrament of matrimony what else don’t some understand. I think we (all of us) need more Catachesis from the altar as well - not just catachumens - as you found out in your RCIA experience too - it is lacking and all we hear from the altar is what I call the Beatles Mantra “*all we need is love”. *
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CD4
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You are so right. This has been my own experience…It is tempting to want to be a part of such very “Catholic” churches…especially when one’s own pariish is so liberal…But, we have to remember what makes us Catholic. Thanks for the reminder!
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The_Dead_Bishop
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:tsktsk: The SSPX CAN NOT break from the True Holy Sacrafice Of The Mass , the Tridentine Mass, The “Mass of the angels” for this would be a betrayal of our Lord and His Grace.They choose the rights of God over the rights of man.
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system
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The Dead Bishop:
This thread (which was dead for 2 weeks) has made it abundantly clear - SSPX masses are valid but illicit, and SSPX priests don’t have the authority to hear confessions (grant absolution) nor officiate marriages on behalf of the Church.
What does that mean? It says nothing of substance.
This thread (which was dead for 2 weeks) has made it abundantly clear - SSPX masses are valid but illicit, and SSPX priests don’t have the authority to hear confessions (grant absolution) nor officiate marriages on behalf of the Church.
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The_Dead_Bishop
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But what do you expect to hear in Mass, Loud and obnoxious guitar music? No. There are rock concerts for that. What do you expect to see, Clowns, and jugglers and " dancing " nuns? No, there are carnivals and circus’ for that.What do you hope to gain in Mass? I tell you, that the faithful expect to hear the angelic singing of Gregorian chant…they expect to see the Holy Body Blood and Divinity of our Lord as the Priest consecrates the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord in commemmoration of the first Sacrafice upon the cross at Calvary. and we hope, against hope, to gain for ourselves through the merits of Christ the Lord, and the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary the salvation of our immortal soul and life everlasting. Instaurare Omnia in Christo!! SSPX
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The_Dead_Bishop
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tcj:
I’m afraid it’s not clear.And you’re wrong.Mass of the angels means nothing to you?
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CMcLaurin
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I’m tired of seeing the SSPX and it’s supporters dancing around Ecclesia Dei. It’s really a waste of time, and all it does is bring up issues that have already been covered.
The Faithful come to receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord-- not Gregorian Chant lessons or a refresher course in Latin. Do I prefer Latin? Of course! It’s ancient, beautiful and otherworldly, and does sound like ’ heaven on earth '-- but I wouldn’t dare align my self with the SSPX ( Which is a Schismatic group. )
I do intend to begin going to the indult as my diocese has began allowing them ( See ’ Latin Mass making a Comeback '), but I will attend a licit Mass.
The Faithful come to receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord-- not Gregorian Chant lessons or a refresher course in Latin. Do I prefer Latin? Of course! It’s ancient, beautiful and otherworldly, and does sound like ’ heaven on earth '-- but I wouldn’t dare align my self with the SSPX ( Which is a Schismatic group. )
I do intend to begin going to the indult as my diocese has began allowing them ( See ’ Latin Mass making a Comeback '), but I will attend a licit Mass.
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pnewton
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The rock of stability, at least where it matters most, in stabilizing the Church of Jesus Christ is not a missal. It is a person, that person is Peter. He is the foundation upon which Christ founded His Church. His successors will ultimately always prove the surest way for a firm foundation for all Catholics. I only make this comment to answer the question, " what does it matter?" Obedience to Rome must never be a matter of indifference. While I could never judge anyone who for reasons of conscience were associated with the SSPX, I would like to think, at least, that they are always moving in the direction of obedience and unity with the rest of Catholicism.
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