Traditionalists views on Rowan Williams' having given the homily at a Catholic Mass?

[maurin]

Sorry, I didn’t meant to confuse. Maybe I didn’t say it correctly. Let me try again. Give me another chance here.

When I look at things that the happen and I wait for the Pope to say something and he doesn’t, I simply assume that he has either

a) approved it and has moved on or

b) dealt with it and moved on.

In either case, he’s not talking about it.

I’ve gotten used to Pope Benedict doing many things that he does not talk about, because I look at what he has done that has ruffled feathers and he has never referred to either the event or to the ruffled feathers.

He has done this so often, that one concludes that this is his style of government. He doesn’t explain himself unless he absolutely has to.

Look at all the ruffled feathers around the EF and OF. He wrote the cover letter to the Motu Proprio and said no more.

Look at the way he is dealing with SSPX. He gave them an ultimatum at the end of the summer. What happened after that? Who really knows? Benedict has said nothing. I’m sure that it didn’t die there. He really wants the SSPX to regularize their situation. But he has not said anything in public.

Not explaining to the general public is part of this man’s style. The only thing we can do when something happens is to make assumptions based on previous things that he has done, until he or someone in authority say something that proves our assumptions to be wrong.

I’m speaking about our assumptions. We can make assumptions based on Bendict’s history as Pope. We go with them, until he says something or the Vatican says something that proves our assumptions are wrong.

Assumptions must always be made based on a person’s record. When I make my assumptions on this event, I’m basing them on other things that Benedict has allowed that are contrary to the GIRM. Knowing that he has authority over the GIRM, I am comfortable with his decision.

Until someone proves that he had nothing to do with this or that he did not know this, I just assume that he did, because he has known other things too and he has done other things that are not provided for in Canon Law or in the GIRM. This would not be the first time.

My impression of Pope Benedict is that he is very protective of the power of the papacy. I go this impression from the wording in his letter to the SSPX this past summer. From that, I can extrapolate that he may feel that he rather play his cards very close to his chest.

Again, I can be completely wrong. I’m basing my assumption on his behaviour since he’s been Pope.

Hope this helps clarify what I’m trying to say. ;;;crossing my fingers;;;

Fraternally,

JR

Yes it does, JR, absolutely clarify what you are saying. You’ll always get as many chances as you need to clarify yourself. I probably need a million “second chances” and I’m always grateful when I am given them!!!

I’m also very happy that you are distinguishing between that which is your ‘qualified and educated’ opinion and that which is fact.

It is a pleasure to converse with you, and you have my respect… but don’t count on my agreement!!!

 

[JReducation]

Yes it does, JR, absolutely clarify what you are saying. You’ll always get as many chances as you need to clarify yourself. I probably need a million “second chances” and I’m always grateful when I am given them!!!

I’m also very happy that you are distinguishing between that which is your ‘qualified and educated’ opinion and that which is fact.

It is a pleasure to converse with you, and you have my respect… but don’t count on my agreement!!!

What about a Christmas present? :whacky:

JR

 

[maurin]

What about a Christmas present? :whacky:

JR

it would be my sincere pleasure! I dabble in making Rosaries, and if you feel comfortable pming me an address, I would be honored to offer to you the sincere work of my hands!!! Closer to Christmas, of course!!!

 

[JReducation]

it would be my sincere pleasure! I dabble in making Rosaries, and if you feel comfortable pming me an address, I would be honored to offer to you the sincere work of my hands!!! Closer to Christmas, of course!!!

Well, I dabble in praying the holy rosary several times a day, so I may take you up on that offer. Especially, since my own little rosary is so worn from use.

JR

 

[maurin]

Well, I dabble in praying the holy rosary several times a day, so I may take you up on that offer. Especially, since my own little rosary is so worn from use.

JR

I get a lot of pleasure making them. I work in Jewelry, as i mentioned above, so I have a cheap supply of precious and semi-precious beads.

Name your color preferences for the Paters and Aves, and when you feel comfortable, let me know!

 

[Frosty]

I almost feel like I’m intruding by making a comment here but I would like to add a couple of points. The idea that Pope Benedict would not have known about the International Mass and that Archbishop Williams had been invited to speak is, quite frankly, nonsense. The Pope himself had been in Lourdes just a little over a week before and had stayed in Bishop Perrier’s Palace. They were together constantly from the time that Benedict arrived at the Tarbes-Lourdes-Pyrenees Airport on September 13 until his departure September 15. I have no doubt that Bishop Perrier and the Pope, along with the retinue of Cardinals and Archbishops who accompanied His Holiness had many discussions of what was going on in regard to the Shrine of Lourdes. Or perhaps some may think that they only talked about which was the best local wine or the outrageous prices charged by some local hawkers for hideous plastic statues?
The other point is that Archbishop Williams was there as leader of a pilgrimmage of other Church of England Bishops, priests and several hundred Anglican Faithful. The day he spoke was the Feast Day of Our Lady of Walsingham { a tile used for Mary, Mother of Jesus}. Those forum members from the UK must know that there are both a Roman Catholic Shrine and an Anglican one at Walsingham and that ecumenical pilgrimmages are sometimes held between the two shrines. Also, one of the elements being highlighted for this, the 150th anniversary of Our Lady of Lourdes is Christian unity as one of the Church’s missions to the world. The Shrine of Our Lady of Lourdes makes a significant contribution to this mission. The pilgrims to Lourdes are not just Roman Catholic, they come from all religions and many have converted because of their experience at the Shrine.
The news reports of this event also say that the Anglican pilgrims accompaning Archbishop Williams were of that segment of the Anglican Church that is considering returning to the Catholic Church and thus, it is highly likely that they were a large part of the congregation for the Mass. Personally, I believe that Bishop Perrier, Cardinal Kaspar and yes, Pope Benedict knew exactly what they were doing by allowing Archbishop Williams to preach the homily. It doesn’t bother me one single little whit whatsoever.

 

[pnewton]

Actually, JR, she wrote to the Pope in Avignon and warned him not to make her complain to his only superior–God.

What a great example. Prayer before disobedience. We should never forget the great resource we have in prayer. I can not imagine the situation you are in where you have to deal with such a pastor. Do not forget he hardly be the first wolf among the flock in the Church, yet the Church remains.

 

[maurin]

I almost feel like I’m intruding by making a comment here but I would like to add a couple of points.

pull up a chair…there’s always room for one more.

The idea that Pope Benedict would not have known about the International Mass and that Archbishop Williams had been invited to speak is, quite frankly, nonsense. The Pope himself had been in Lourdes just a little over a week before and had stayed in Bishop Perrier’s Palace. They were together constantly from the time that Benedict arrived at the Tarbes-Lourdes-Pyrenees Airport on September 13 until his departure September 15. I have no doubt that Bishop Perrier and the Pope, along with the retinue of Cardinals and Archbishops who accompanied His Holiness had many discussions of what was going on in regard to the Shrine of Lourdes. Or perhaps some may think that they only talked about which was the best local wine or the outrageous prices charged by some local hawkers for hideous plastic statues?
The other point is that Archbishop Williams was there as leader of a pilgrimmage of other Church of England Bishops, priests and several hundred Anglican Faithful. The day he spoke was the Feast Day of Our Lady of Walsingham { a tile used for Mary, Mother of Jesus}. Those forum members from the UK must know that there are both a Roman Catholic Shrine and an Anglican one at Walsingham and that ecumenical pilgrimmages are sometimes held between the two shrines. Also, one of the elements being highlighted for this, the 150th anniversary of Our Lady of Lourdes is Christian unity as one of the Church’s missions to the world. The Shrine of Our Lady of Lourdes makes a significant contribution to this mission. The pilgrims to Lourdes are not just Roman Catholic, they come from all religions and many have converted because of their experience at the Shrine.
The news reports of this event also say that the Anglican pilgrims accompaning Archbishop Williams were of that segment of the Anglican Church that is considering returning to the Catholic Church and thus, it is highly likely that they were a large part of the congregation for the Mass. Personally, I believe that Bishop Perrier, Cardinal Kaspar and yes, Pope Benedict knew exactly what they were doing by allowing Archbishop Williams to preach the homily. It doesn’t bother me one single little whit whatsoever.

beautiful sentiments, frosty, but again, sentiments are what they are…will this travesty of etiquette look as foolish in retrospect as does the Assisi Gathering, if the Anglo-“Catholics” don’t convert en masse? Will it have been worth the cost of confusion and further disarray? Does false ecumenism ever work?

 

[brotherhrolf]

pull up a chair…there’s always room for one more.

beautiful sentiments, frosty, but again, sentiments are what they are…will this travesty of etiquette look as foolish in retrospect as does the Assisi Gathering, if the Anglo-“Catholics” don’t convert en masse? Will it have been worth the cost of confusion and further disarray? Does false ecumenism ever work?

We could easily go back to the church of my youth where I had to get permission from our parish priest to attend my grandmother’s funeral because she was protestant. I don’t know your age, Maurin, but I was 16 in 1967 and attending a protestant service was the most frightening thing in my young life. I really do not want to go back to those days when I prayed every day that my father, grandmother, and great aunt were not destined for hell.

I am so confident in my faith that anything Abp. Williams could possibly say in his homily would sway me. But it is absolutely remarkable what he had to say. I remarked earlier that the Anglicans/Episcopalians sometime try to “out Catholic” we Catholics. I need only look to our separated brethren three blocks down from my cathedral parish. We have a tradition of a Christmas pilgrimage each December where the choirs of all the downtown churches sing as people hold a candlelight procession from church to church. Our Episcopalian brethren have stood on ceremony for years saying it is Advent. So what? My choir sings Advent carols of which there are any number.

I don’t want to go back to what I knew. I am not afraid of my Catholicism and my faith is not going to be challenged by the Abp. of Canterbury affirming his belief in the BVM. OK so the Anglo-Catholics don’t convert in mass numbers…We extended the hand to our prodigal brothers and sisters and said “Come home. Welcome home.”

“Because the Holy Ghost over the bent World broods with warm breast and with ah! bright wings.” G. M. Hopkins Maybe we ought to look at this as the Holy Ghost in action.

 

[maurin]

We could easily go back to the church of my youth where I had to get permission from our parish priest to attend my grandmother’s funeral because she was protestant. I don’t know your age, Maurin, but I was 16 in 1967 and attending a protestant service was the most frightening thing in my young life. I really do not want to go back to those days when I prayed every day that my father, grandmother, and great aunt were not destined for hell.

We have already discussed this. I repeat again how sorry I am for the unnecessary stress that you were felt was “put upon you.” But, as we have already discussed, Feeneyism was roundly condemned before even your first year.

I don’t want to go back to what I knew.

maybe you can ammend this statement to “I don’t want to go back to what I thought I knew.” Your Priest was wrong to make you think your family members, etc. were absolutely damned in light of the condemnation of Feeneyism.

I am not afraid of my Catholicism and my faith is not going to be challenged by the Abp. of Canterbury affirming his belief in the BVM. OK so the Anglo-Catholics don’t convert in mass numbers…We extended the hand to our prodigal brothers and sisters and said “Come home. Welcome home.”

c’mon, brotherhrolf, can we stick to what has actually been said in our conversation? It is not the fact that we have “extended” our hand in ecumenism, that is the issue. The issue is whether or not it is proper, mete or just to extend that hand in such a way which causes confusion on the level of the Churches local. Examples have been given of how it is played out in certain Churches local.

“Because the Holy Ghost over the bent World broods with warm breast and with ah! bright wings.” G. M. Hopkins Maybe we ought to look at this as the Holy Ghost in action.

beautiful!

however, it is obvious that in certain cases some are ignoring the actions of the Holy Spirit.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I almost feel like I’m intruding by making a comment here but I would like to add a couple of points. The idea that Pope Benedict would not have known about the International Mass and that Archbishop Williams had been invited to speak is, quite frankly, nonsense. The Pope himself had been in Lourdes just a little over a week before and had stayed in Bishop Perrier’s Palace. They were together constantly from the time that Benedict arrived at the Tarbes-Lourdes-Pyrenees Airport on September 13 until his departure September 15. I have no doubt that Bishop Perrier and the Pope, along with the retinue of Cardinals and Archbishops who accompanied His Holiness had many discussions of what was going on in regard to the Shrine of Lourdes. Or perhaps some may think that they only talked about which was the best local wine or the outrageous prices charged by some local hawkers for hideous plastic statues?
The other point is that Archbishop Williams was there as leader of a pilgrimmage of other Church of England Bishops, priests and several hundred Anglican Faithful. The day he spoke was the Feast Day of Our Lady of Walsingham { a tile used for Mary, Mother of Jesus}. Those forum members from the UK must know that there are both a Roman Catholic Shrine and an Anglican one at Walsingham and that ecumenical pilgrimmages are sometimes held between the two shrines. Also, one of the elements being highlighted for this, the 150th anniversary of Our Lady of Lourdes is Christian unity as one of the Church’s missions to the world. The Shrine of Our Lady of Lourdes makes a significant contribution to this mission. The pilgrims to Lourdes are not just Roman Catholic, they come from all religions and many have converted because of their experience at the Shrine.
The news reports of this event also say that the Anglican pilgrims accompaning Archbishop Williams were of that segment of the Anglican Church that is considering returning to the Catholic Church and thus, it is highly likely that they were a large part of the congregation for the Mass. Personally, I believe that Bishop Perrier, Cardinal Kaspar and yes, Pope Benedict knew exactly what they were doing by allowing Archbishop Williams to preach the homily. It doesn’t bother me one single little whit whatsoever.

thanks frosty for your post. very well written. i am glad you pointed out that the pilgrims to lourdes are not just roman catholic, but from all religions. i believe that there probably are many who do convert if they are feeling moved by the Holy Spirit there and especially if they have been healed or have seen a member of their family or friend healed.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Maurin, I had to go look up “Feeneyism”. It was not a term I was familiar with. I report what I experienced growing up in New Orleans.

You make light of something that I experienced as a child. I have explained that my paternal grandmother was protestant and divorced when she married my paternal grandfather. The only contact I had with my paternal grandfather’s side of the family was around All Saints Day. Most tombs in New Orleans are above ground. The weekend before All Saints Day, families gathered to clean, whitewash, and plant flowers on the familial tombs.

So, we would go to my mother’s family tomb…my brother and sister and cousins and we would clean it and then put a fresh coat of white wash and then till the soil and put out a fresh group of flowering plants. After Novena at 2 my great aunt would take the three of us across the cemetary to meet my great aunt on my father’s side of the family (Aunt Claire and Aunt Sophie were childhood friends). That was being Catholic in New Orleans.

When my father passed away, his Catholic cousins came to his funeral. They remembered my Aunt Claire and my brother, sister, and myself…

Feeneyism? No. The remembrance of things past… This had nothing to do with Fr. Feeney. It had everything to do with HMC and how we viewed the world. I had contact with my father’s side of the family on one day all because my grandfather married a divorced protestant woman. I don’t think Our Lord would be pleased.

I welcome Abp. Williams. He remains our separated brother in Christ.

 

[maurin]

Maurin, I had to go look up “Feeneyism”. It was not a term I was familiar with. I report what I experienced growing up in New Orleans.

You make light of something that I experienced as a child.

I’m not quite sure I understand how pointing out that we have already discussed this, and expressed my sorrow at how inappropriate your Priest’s words were to make you feel that way can be interpreted as ‘making light of your experiences.’ I was sexually abused as a child. I take childhood experiences quite seriously, brotherhrolf. I express again my sorrow for how your priest inappropriately made you feel. I’m not quite sure how to make that any more clear.

Feeneyism? No. The remembrance of things past… This had nothing to do with Fr. Feeney. It had everything to do with HMC and how we viewed the world. I had contact with my father’s side of the family on one day all because my grandfather married a divorced protestant woman. I don’t think Our Lord would be pleased.

The remembrance of things past do not make those things the Church’s Teachings. I remember each and every act of abuse, brotherhrolf, and each and every refusal of my parents to get it to stop. That doesn’t mean the abuse or the lack of protection from the abuse was mete or just.

All I am telling you is that your priest was absolutely wrong when he made you feel that way.

I welcome Abp. Williams.

as do I.

He remains our separated brother in Christ.

Yes he does, and as long as he remains so, it is a travesty that he was allowed to preach at a Holy Mass, and is an example of false ecumenism.

 

[brotherhrolf]

In the final analysis, Maurin, I am a product of my upbringing. My fatther embraced the church of his ancestors before he went to his eternal reward. It was my protestant father that woke me up and took me to serve all those six AM low Masses in Latin.

I don’t want to return to the 60s. Abp. Williams has expressed a belief in the BVM. That’s good enough for me. I don’t want to return to the days of us having to seek permission from our parish priest to attend the funeral services of a blood relative who is not Catholic.

It’s been a long 40 years with a lotta water under the bridge. I would welcome our separated English brethren back into the fold.

 

[maurin]

In the final analysis, brotherhrolf, I am struggling to follow the logic behind your posts.

In the final analysis, Maurin, I am a product of my upbringing. My fatther embraced the church of his ancestors before he went to his eternal reward. It was my protestant father that woke me up and took me to serve all those six AM low Masses in Latin.

I don’t want to return to the 60s. Abp. Williams has expressed a belief in the BVM. That’s good enough for me.

what’s good enough for you? The Baptists believe that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. Should they preach homilies at Mass? The Methodists believe that Jesus Rose from the Dead on the Third Day. Ought we listen to them Homilize at Mass? You are not making yourself clear here, brotherhrolf.

I don’t want to return to the days of us having to seek permission from our parish priest to attend the funeral services of a blood relative who is not Catholic.

So you believe that if the Catholic Church is once again the bastion and bulwark it once was against modernism and liberalism that it will teach error? I don’t understand you, brother, yet I am striving to. Yes, your priest was wrong. But because your priest was wrong, does that mean what he put you through was official teaching of the Catholic Church? Do not forget, brotherhrolf, that if you wish to marry a non-Catholic, you still need to get a dispensation. Do you wish the Church to change in that respect.

I submit again that you are equating the error of your priest as the Church’s error. Are you?

It’s been a long 40 years with a lotta water under the bridge. I would welcome our separated English brethren back into the fold.

Wonderful sentiment, and fond memories…you keep on bringing them up as if I am somehow “anti” or “against” them. It is curious to me.

What else is curious to me is that even though I have explained it in at least 3 posts I can remember, your are insinuating that I am not ecumenical. I am not falsely ecumenical, brotherhrolf. I pray for unity with every Rosary I pray daily.

 

[pnewton]

So you believe that if the Catholic Church is once again the bastion and bulwark it once was against modernism and liberalism…
I am not falsely ecumenical, brotherhrolf. I pray for unity with every Rosary I pray daily.

Put me down for a big “YES” on the first one. That will never change. Whatever the heresy, the Church will overcome all and teach truth.

As far as false ecumenism, I believe this phrase is over-used and seldom does little but beg the question of what is “false”. Rightly you say you are ecumenical, as all who follow Christ should be. Yet as long as we do not seek to lower our doctrine to the lowest common denominator and maintain our traditional teaching, how can the Church be false? Perhaps some methods are not in line with what you or I might deem prudent, but that does not mean we are compromising our doctrine.

We must let those charged with make prudent decisions make those. They have knowledge of the situation which we down the line simply do not have. It is not right to second-guess them in areas of prudence.

 

[maurin]

I am absolutely confused:shrug:

Put me down for a big “YES” on the first one. That will never change. Whatever the heresy, the Church will overcome all and teach truth.

the rest of the sentence for which you want us to put you down for a big ‘yes’ which stated that if the Church was once again the bastion and bulwark against modernism and liberalism, went on to ask if brotherhrolf believed the Church would teach error. Is this your yes?

I’m sure I’ve got my lines crossed here, pnewton, so please set me straight.

I do believe, though, that many Churchmen have subverted the Church’s teachings and do spread the heresies of modernism and liberalism. It is appalling apparent in the last three Dioceses, present one included, I have lived. Be careful to understand please that I have distinguished between the Church and certain Churchmen.

As far as false ecumenism, I believe this phrase is over-used and seldom does little but beg the question of what is “false”. Rightly you say you are ecumenical, as all who follow Christ should be. Yet as long as we do not seek to lower our doctrine to the lowest common denominator and maintain our traditional teaching, how can the Church be false? Perhaps some methods are not in line with what you or I might deem prudent, but that does not mean we are compromising our doctrine.

I have carefully distinguished between Church and Churchmen. When a Churchman is not acting or teaching under the gift of Infallibility, are you concluding they are still prevented from error?

We must let those charged with make prudent decisions make those. They have knowledge of the situation which we down the line simply do not have. It is not right to second-guess them in areas of prudence.

In a way, pnewton, I agree with you, or maybe it is better stated that I desire, want, down in the depths of my soul, my very being to agree with you.

but you just don’t see how these things are used as excuses in this Church local to subvert Holy Mother Church Universal.

That’s why I don’t buy into JR’s explanation that His Holiness owes us not any explanations–well maybe not explanations, but he does owe us catechesis, especially when he is acting contrary to the Church’s norms (please see his prior posts if you do not understand what I mean, e.g. giving non-Catholics Holy Communion, etc.)

 

[iona_scribe]

Will it have been worth the cost of confusion and further disarray? Does false ecumenism ever work?

I hope so. God works through imperfect people and their imperfect efforts all the time.

Which is not to say that the ends justify the means, or that God’s grace gives us license to do whatever we want, just that ultimately He is in control and He works out all things for the good of those who love him (Romans 8:28). I have to believe this or I would go crazy

It’s God’s will that we will all be one some day. Maybe this has been kind of a stumbling step toward that, but a step nonetheless. I do hope that in the long run it will be the positive aspect that wins (Though I agree with you that Mass was really not the proper time or place, I also agree that the Abp Williams’ statements were pretty momentous) and that any confusion or offense will be worked out and forgotten.

Great discussion everyone

 

[maurin]

I hope so. God works through imperfect people and their imperfect efforts all the time.

Which is not to say that the ends justify the means, or that God’s grace gives us license to do whatever we want, just that ultimately He is in control and He works out all things for the good of those who love him (Romans 8:28). I have to believe this or I would go crazy

It’s God’s will that we will all be one some day. Maybe this has been kind of a stumbling step toward that, but a step nonetheless. I do hope that in the long run it will be the positive aspect that wins (Though I agree with you that Mass was really not the proper time or place,:

very reasonable response, iona_scribe. thank you for your perspective. A welcome light.

God bless you.

 

[Howard_Roark]

Man of few words, coming in late anyway:

Williams is an idiot, embarassment to his nation, they’re finally figuring this out.

No one knows what this crackpot believes, even to say he’s Trinitarian in his heart is speaking out of school.

He’s emblematic of the failure of liberal “Christianity” in Europe, and Catholics and the HRCC should have nothing to do with him.

This event is just one more example of how the job of the Pope is like herding cats, and how nuts the average Cardinal really is.

Want to do something nice for Anglicanism? Send Arinze around to ask the African Anglican Bishops what concessions it would take to get them to convert, see if they’re reasonable.