Traditionalists: would you consider guitar synthesizers as a solution?
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BobP123
Guest
I have nothing against the piano. It’s beautiful and I play it myself; in fact, I performed in some recitals when I was younger. What I object to though is that it is a percussion instrument, which uses tiny hammers to make those sounds. Reminds me of the hammers used to pound nails into Christ’s wrists. (But then I tend to overanalyze things from a scientific standpoint.) That’s why I don’t think it’s appropriate in Church and I would never play it in Church. But others may feel differently, I’m sure.
In any case, I’m glad your organ was completed. Hope you have a nice trumpet stop with it.
(If not, some good reeds should do nicely.)
M
mercygate
Guest
Synthesizers have come a long way, baby! And they make some amazing music. REAL music. But in my experience, the kind of music appropriate to the TLM is not the kind of music most “Mass” guitarists are interested in. Most Mass guitarists are amateurs without classical training and have a decidedly folk/rock bent.
I know a guitarist who could give Segovia a run for his money. For HIM, you wouldn’t need a synthesizer. His musicianship and his sense of tradition would be in no way problematic in the context of the TLM.
M
Malcolm_McLean
Guest
It is good to give thanks to the Lord
to make music to your name, O Most High
to procalim your love in the morning
and your truth in the watches of the night,
on the ten-stringed harp and the lute
with the murmuring sound of the lyre.
C
Cat
Guest
Well, I apologize to all of you that the Lord gave me the ability to play the piano like a Baptist, with plenty of arpeggios.
But I think many of you would rather have no music than my music. I’m happy to say that the parishes I play for don’t agree with you at all.
I have a challenge for you–next time you see a pianist in a Catholic Church, walk up to them after the Mass and tell them the things that you posted on this Board. Tell them to get lost, that they are “against the teachings of the Church,” that they sound like lounge lizards. Go ahead, try it. I’m just curious: you post such horrid comments about piano and pianists on an online board where church pianists can read them, but do you have the guts to say these things face to face with a human being pianist? And then to justify it as Christian love?
Of course, considering the HUNDREDS of organists standing in line to play the organ in churches, perhaps it’s for the best that I get my butt off of the bench. (I’m being sarcastic–there aren’t more than a few dozen organists in our large city, and they are already worked to the bone in Catholic and Protestant churches, as well as the other religious organizations that meet on Sunday e.g., the Christian Scientists and LDSs.)
But I think many of you would rather have no music than my music. I’m happy to say that the parishes I play for don’t agree with you at all.
I have a challenge for you–next time you see a pianist in a Catholic Church, walk up to them after the Mass and tell them the things that you posted on this Board. Tell them to get lost, that they are “against the teachings of the Church,” that they sound like lounge lizards. Go ahead, try it. I’m just curious: you post such horrid comments about piano and pianists on an online board where church pianists can read them, but do you have the guts to say these things face to face with a human being pianist? And then to justify it as Christian love?
Of course, considering the HUNDREDS of organists standing in line to play the organ in churches, perhaps it’s for the best that I get my butt off of the bench. (I’m being sarcastic–there aren’t more than a few dozen organists in our large city, and they are already worked to the bone in Catholic and Protestant churches, as well as the other religious organizations that meet on Sunday e.g., the Christian Scientists and LDSs.)
C
Christophorus
Guest
Gracia et Pax Vobiscum,
Personally I don’t even really like the organ… it’s loud and over shadows the chanting of the laity. I actually like Eastern Rite Liturgies with nothing but voices chanting in unison to the Heavens!
Pax.
Personally I don’t even really like the organ… it’s loud and over shadows the chanting of the laity. I actually like Eastern Rite Liturgies with nothing but voices chanting in unison to the Heavens!
Pax.
M
mercygate
Guest
Aside from your justifiably hurt feelings, do you feel that “playing piano like a Baptist” is suited to the TLM? I am assuming, of course, that you can also play the piano “like a Catholic” (whatever that means). In my far distant youth, the only churches that used pianos were storefront operations . . . So if Artur Rubenstein were to walk into my parish, I would expect the worst. Our piano playing professional musicians are good in the context of the folk/rock Novus Ordo and really do try (where the music permits) to play with dignity and sensitivity.
The problem is less with the musician than with the instrument in my estimation. As an earlier poster notes, it is percussive.
That said, I am a BIG fan of brass at Easter, strings at Christmas and — tympani!
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BobP123
Guest
Did Vatican II say organs weren’t to be used in the Eastern Rite liturgies?Personally I don’t even really like the organ… it’s loud and over shadows the chanting of the laity. I actually like Eastern Rite Liturgies with nothing but voices chanting in unison to the Heavens!
Seriously, I guess it depends on the chant, on whether you like your own voice enough to sing, and whether you feel it’s appropriate. Some Sundays I prefer no singing at all and just give me a Low Mass where I can hear myself actually pray. On other Sundays bring on those 32 footers.
By the way, check out this guy’s footwork: youtube.com/watch?v=Dj-IFf4Amgc&NR=1
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VociMike
Guest
And I have my own sneaking suspicion that our good Benedict XVI may soon set his mind to just such an endeavor.
M
Malcolm_McLean
Guest
This is a problem that lay participation throws up. You’ve got a lot of people with delicate egoes, trying to find their place in the parish community. If one priest decides to stretch a point and allow a pianist instead of an organist at Mass, it becomes very difficult for anyone to tighten up without causing upset.
We had a similar problem at our parish with a keen guitarist. His attitude was very much that, since he chose the music, he was running the Mass. He’d even interrupt the priest to announce which Gloria we’d be having. Most of my family treated it as a bit of a joke, but my sister was very offended by him.
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BobP123
Guest
Well, you give them enough options and it will soon turn into a popularity contest. I can’t remember in my pre-VII days voting on any liturgical issues, with battle lines being drawn all over the place. Maybe strictness to the rubrics and language and instrument does have some merits. Egos have no place in the proper worship of God.
C
Cat
Guest
mercygate, I play the music the way it is supposed to be played. If it’s folk, it gets a folk style. Classical I play classical. Rock is rock (I’m not very good at rock.) Gospel is gospel.
I play traditional hymns (e.g., Te Deum) with a definite “crusade” style that apparently would cause several traditionalists on this board to throw up. If you’ve ever watched a Billy Graham Crusade, you’ll know know what I mean. That’s the way I learned to play this hymn in the Protestant churches I grew up in.
So far, no one has any complaints. I play for several parishes, and they are very appreciative. I’ve never met up with Scotty PGH or any of his ilk, thank goodness. I would be incredibly hurt, and I would be angry, too. The first thing I would do is go to Father and ask him to step in and make things right. (In the parishes I play in, Father would no doubt tell Scotty PGH to play it himself if he doesn’t like the piano!)
I don’t think there’s any way I could ever play “staid.” I play solemn, sad, and soft, but never “staid.” I learned to play piano from a Lutheran teacher, and she taught me to glorify God, as J.S. Bach did.
I play traditional hymns (e.g., Te Deum) with a definite “crusade” style that apparently would cause several traditionalists on this board to throw up. If you’ve ever watched a Billy Graham Crusade, you’ll know know what I mean. That’s the way I learned to play this hymn in the Protestant churches I grew up in.
So far, no one has any complaints. I play for several parishes, and they are very appreciative. I’ve never met up with Scotty PGH or any of his ilk, thank goodness. I would be incredibly hurt, and I would be angry, too. The first thing I would do is go to Father and ask him to step in and make things right. (In the parishes I play in, Father would no doubt tell Scotty PGH to play it himself if he doesn’t like the piano!)
I don’t think there’s any way I could ever play “staid.” I play solemn, sad, and soft, but never “staid.” I learned to play piano from a Lutheran teacher, and she taught me to glorify God, as J.S. Bach did.
S
Scotty_PGH
Guest
It’s a shame that nobody ever bothered to inform you that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is about Christ coming down on the altar to nourish his people; it is not in any way about you and your sensitivities. Put on a talent show and have the parishioners meet you in the social hall where they can applaud you and give you the validation you apparently need. But please understand that the last thing the Holy Sacrifice requires is your guitar-strumming.
BTW - you never have to worry about running into me or people of my “ilk” at the parishes you “play” in, because we wouldn’t be caught dead there.
BTW - you never have to worry about running into me or people of my “ilk” at the parishes you “play” in, because we wouldn’t be caught dead there.
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brotherhrolf
Guest
To Cat - with all respect:
I do appreciate what you are saying. No one is asking you to adopt a musical style which is antithetical to your experience and background. But, on the other hand, it should be recognized that such a style would be antithetical to the tenor of the TLM.
No matter that you play a Te Deum in a Billy Graham Crusade style. It would not be appropriate for the TLM. I never heard anything like that growing up with the TLM - and, yes, I grew up with the TLM and was an altar boy years before V II.
It is inconceivable to me to use any kind of synthesizer in the context of the TLM. One need only look at the plethora of Latin Mass settings which can be sung acapella much less the polyphonic motets which my cathedral choir uses within the context of the NO. We have close to 1500 years of music in association with a Latin liturgy. Please forgive me, Cat, but we do NOT need to sound like our protestant brethren.
I’m not an elitist by any stretch of the immagination. I grew up in New Orleans at a time when 75% of the population was Catholic. New Orleans, Cat. New Orleans. Saw many a Jazz Funeral in 8th grade in 1964 when my eigth grade classroom was located at St. Augustine. Jazz band playing “Just a Closer Walk with Thee”…to the door of the church. Black or white back then within the confines of St. Augustine, the Mass and music were in Latin.
Just before we went to the NO, there were a few Latin Masses composed in an non-European context:
amazon.com/Missa-Luba-African-Guido-Haazen/dp/B00000412X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-2646420-4642042?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1184197259&sr=1-1
This is not the Missa Luba I heard on 33 1/3 rpm vinyl record - the tempo was far more electric.
The point I am trying to make is that there were attempts before Vatican II to put the TLM into an ethnic context. The Jesuits petitioned for a Chinese rite in the 17th century.
I live in Brother Jimmy Swaggertland. You will forgive me and my ancestors if I do not choose to do as Brother Jimmy does. This part of the equation is often forgotten.
I do appreciate what you are saying. No one is asking you to adopt a musical style which is antithetical to your experience and background. But, on the other hand, it should be recognized that such a style would be antithetical to the tenor of the TLM.
No matter that you play a Te Deum in a Billy Graham Crusade style. It would not be appropriate for the TLM. I never heard anything like that growing up with the TLM - and, yes, I grew up with the TLM and was an altar boy years before V II.
It is inconceivable to me to use any kind of synthesizer in the context of the TLM. One need only look at the plethora of Latin Mass settings which can be sung acapella much less the polyphonic motets which my cathedral choir uses within the context of the NO. We have close to 1500 years of music in association with a Latin liturgy. Please forgive me, Cat, but we do NOT need to sound like our protestant brethren.
I’m not an elitist by any stretch of the immagination. I grew up in New Orleans at a time when 75% of the population was Catholic. New Orleans, Cat. New Orleans. Saw many a Jazz Funeral in 8th grade in 1964 when my eigth grade classroom was located at St. Augustine. Jazz band playing “Just a Closer Walk with Thee”…to the door of the church. Black or white back then within the confines of St. Augustine, the Mass and music were in Latin.
Just before we went to the NO, there were a few Latin Masses composed in an non-European context:
amazon.com/Missa-Luba-African-Guido-Haazen/dp/B00000412X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-2646420-4642042?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1184197259&sr=1-1
This is not the Missa Luba I heard on 33 1/3 rpm vinyl record - the tempo was far more electric.
The point I am trying to make is that there were attempts before Vatican II to put the TLM into an ethnic context. The Jesuits petitioned for a Chinese rite in the 17th century.
I live in Brother Jimmy Swaggertland. You will forgive me and my ancestors if I do not choose to do as Brother Jimmy does. This part of the equation is often forgotten.
T
THurifer2
Guest
I got an idea and a likely short cut here…why not just play the organ instead!!! it would likely be much cheaper and hey its a shortcut to that sought after “organ sound”.
B
BobP123
Guest
Yep, that about wraps it up!! We can all go home now.
C
Cat
Guest
Scotty PGH, how dare you.
I understand as much as I am capable of understanding such an unfathomable mystery that the Mass is the Holy Sacrifice, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is Truly present in the tabernacle and on the altar at the time of the consecration.
I fully understand and rejoice that Mass is a sacrifice, not a “singspiration” or a “feel-good time.”
I completely understand that the TLM is different than that NO, and that the music in the TLM is also different. I’m not stupid and I’m not on any kind of crusade to “liven up” the TLM. I have a great appreciation for the tradition of the Catholic Church and the TLM and I’m glad that our Holy Father has made it possible for more of the faithful who long for the TLM to be able to attend it now.
I also accept the particular gifts and talents that I have been given by the Lord, and** I am fully cognizant of the reality that my piano-playingI would not be useful in a TLM**. I am not hurt or offended by this reality. There are a lot of things that I can’t do musically, and playing at a TLM is one of those things.
There are other Masses where my piano-playing is welcome and appropriate, and I am content, indeed, joy-filled, to serve the Lord and His people in these parishes.
I have never nor will I ever put on a “talent show” in any church, Protestant or Catholic, that I have played PIANO (not guitar) in. This is an insulting and a judgmental remark, especially when you don’t even know me and you’ve never heard me play or been friends with me enough to witness my day-to-day life and faith.
When I play the piano at Mass, I am constantly aware that I am joining my piano with the music of the angels in heaven. At times, I glimpse them singing and playing, and I am humbled that I am considered worthy to join my poor talent with their heavenly music.
Here is one of the parishes where I play:
65.36.195.32/index.asp
Make sure to wait for the pictures to cycle through so that you can see the beautiful sanctuary and some of the statuary of the saints, especially dear St. Anthony of Padua.
You wouldn’t attend THIS beautiful 100-year old parish? That’s sad, IMO.
And brotherhrolf, I absolutely, totally agree that my “style” would not be appropriate in a TLM. We have TLM in our city daily, and the musicians who assist there are knowledgeable, well-trained, and skilled in TLM- appropriate music. They certainly don’t need my unskilled help, although if they ever did call me in an emergency (which they never would because I can’t play the organ), I would try my very best to play the songs the way they are meant to be played. ** I would never dream of prancing into a TLM and imposing an inappropriate style or repertoire of music. **
brotherhrolf, I also appreciate the care that you put into your comments. I didn’t feel belittled or insulted by anything you said because you said it in a graceful and considerate way. Thank you.
I would appreciate a little more kindness from the “traditionalists,” please. After all, the Lord said that they would know we are Christians by our LOVE for each other, not by our “traditions.”
I understand as much as I am capable of understanding such an unfathomable mystery that the Mass is the Holy Sacrifice, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is Truly present in the tabernacle and on the altar at the time of the consecration.
I fully understand and rejoice that Mass is a sacrifice, not a “singspiration” or a “feel-good time.”
I completely understand that the TLM is different than that NO, and that the music in the TLM is also different. I’m not stupid and I’m not on any kind of crusade to “liven up” the TLM. I have a great appreciation for the tradition of the Catholic Church and the TLM and I’m glad that our Holy Father has made it possible for more of the faithful who long for the TLM to be able to attend it now.
I also accept the particular gifts and talents that I have been given by the Lord, and** I am fully cognizant of the reality that my piano-playingI would not be useful in a TLM**. I am not hurt or offended by this reality. There are a lot of things that I can’t do musically, and playing at a TLM is one of those things.
There are other Masses where my piano-playing is welcome and appropriate, and I am content, indeed, joy-filled, to serve the Lord and His people in these parishes.
I have never nor will I ever put on a “talent show” in any church, Protestant or Catholic, that I have played PIANO (not guitar) in. This is an insulting and a judgmental remark, especially when you don’t even know me and you’ve never heard me play or been friends with me enough to witness my day-to-day life and faith.
When I play the piano at Mass, I am constantly aware that I am joining my piano with the music of the angels in heaven. At times, I glimpse them singing and playing, and I am humbled that I am considered worthy to join my poor talent with their heavenly music.
Here is one of the parishes where I play:
65.36.195.32/index.asp
Make sure to wait for the pictures to cycle through so that you can see the beautiful sanctuary and some of the statuary of the saints, especially dear St. Anthony of Padua.
You wouldn’t attend THIS beautiful 100-year old parish? That’s sad, IMO.
And brotherhrolf, I absolutely, totally agree that my “style” would not be appropriate in a TLM. We have TLM in our city daily, and the musicians who assist there are knowledgeable, well-trained, and skilled in TLM- appropriate music. They certainly don’t need my unskilled help, although if they ever did call me in an emergency (which they never would because I can’t play the organ), I would try my very best to play the songs the way they are meant to be played. ** I would never dream of prancing into a TLM and imposing an inappropriate style or repertoire of music. **
brotherhrolf, I also appreciate the care that you put into your comments. I didn’t feel belittled or insulted by anything you said because you said it in a graceful and considerate way. Thank you.
I would appreciate a little more kindness from the “traditionalists,” please. After all, the Lord said that they would know we are Christians by our LOVE for each other, not by our “traditions.”
M
mercygate
Guest
I have a good friend who was a musical prodigy, Juillard trained organist, who played her first Mass before her 8-year-old feet could really reach the organ pedals. She is very gifted as a pianist and organist. She is also liturgically astute and trained. Her line: I’m just the Pie-anna player!
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