"traditionalizing" the ordinary form

[GIR]

There are some days where I want to go to an ef mass so bad it hurts (especially when I’m listening to the horrible music at a typical mass) but I really think this separation of EF and OF is at best a temporary solution. As much as pope benedict says they are two forms of the same rite, I can’t help but disagree (ever so slightly, and of course, respectfully) mainly because the EF and OF have different calendars.

I also think that traditionalists tend to ghettoize themselves by only attending EF masses (not to mention the rampant craziness which drives people like myself away).

I think a lot of the problems with the OF can be solved by treating it in light of the older mass (as well as the eastern liturgies), that is, approaching it, and thus presenting it, with the same attitude of awe and reverence. While I think legitimate complaints can be made on the basis that the OF rubrics are too “malleable”, I think this might serve a good purpose instead of a bad one.

Having said all this, if I were a pastor (or better yet a bishop) Here’s what I’d do

-communion by intinction, so everyone must receive on the tungue.

-more liberal use of incense (as i understand, teh EF actually restricts its use to certain occasions, but the OF allows it in all cases) I would actually use it at all times like the eastern rites.

-chanting the WHOLE mass (again like the eastern rites). Notice that i’m freely borrowing elements from other traditions, but traditions with a correct view of the purpose of liturgy. It would be cool if we could chant the readings as well. I saw that on a good friday liturgy in Rome this past Easter.

-ad orientum (that goes without saying)

-as for music, I may go so far as to ban ALL instruments, just so there’s as little room as possible for craziness.

-servers and EMHCS. Maybe I could ban both boys and girls and just do it all myself altogether. that way I’m not accused of leaving the girls out. (although i might be accused of lots of other things)

-Latin latin and more latin (although I think doing it in the vernacular has benefits as well)

 

[Ockham]

Wouldn’t it be a lot easier to just go to an EF?

It will take generations for the OF to gain a significant sense of reverence and Sacrifice throughout the world.

There may be a place for the simplified OF liturgy as an introduction to the Mass for converts, during the Saturday vigil.

 

[tbtcom1213]

On Sunday I served a Mass in honor of God the Father of all mankind. At the Mass I did traditional things which made the priest MC/concelebrant irritated.

For instance I rang the bell three times at the sanctus. After I did this the priest MC/concelebrant asked the altar girl to take the bell from me and ring it herself.

The next thing that upset him was that I took a paten and placed it under the chin or hands of each communicant. When he saw that I did this he asked me to go back to the sanctuary.

At another point in the Mass he asked an altar boy to distribute communion so that he could instruct the servers in the back.

During the period of silence the priest MC/concelebrant pulled me aside to explain my role during Benediction and then discussed with me that what I did with the bells and paten wasn’t wrong as he grew up with it but it was no longer the way to go. After that we went back to our seats.

The week before this Mass there was an octave of prayers and Masses which I also assisted. I did the traditional things (bells and paten) without objection from the visiting priests and even taught it to a local altar server.

So much for “traditionalizing” the ordinary form; Never give up!

 

[crazzeto]

I think this is a terrific idea, basically take the EF and just literally translate it (well, not so much that you can’t understand it) to the venacular. Unforutunetly I wouldn’t expect this other than a far more literal translation with the upcomming missal changes.

I hope however, that the changes will spark a movement towards what I consider more reverent woship.

 

[rwoehmke]

On Sunday I served a Mass in honor of God the Father of all mankind. At the Mass I did traditional things which made the priest MC/concelebrant irritated.

For instance I rang the bell three times at the sanctus. After I did this the priest MC/concelebrant asked the altar girl to take the bell from me and ring it herself.

The next thing that upset him was that I took a paten and placed it under the chin or hands of each communicant. When he saw that I did this he asked me to go back to the sanctuary.

At another point in the Mass he asked an altar boy to distribute communion so that he could instruct the servers in the back.

During the period of silence the priest MC/concelebrant pulled me aside to explain my role during Benediction and then discussed with me that what I did with the bells and paten wasn’t wrong as he grew up with it but it was no longer the way to go. After that we went back to our seats.

The week before this Mass there was an octave of prayers and Masses which I also assisted. I did the traditional things (bells and paten) without objection from the visiting priests and even taught it to a local altar server.

So much for “traditionalizing” the ordinary form; Never give up!

Have you even stopped to consider what this “messing around” does to confuse and disrupt the prayer of those who don’t grasp what is going on with the rubricvs proper to the OF Mass they are attending. Self righteousness never trumps the proper way of doing things by the book.

 

[Ockham]

Self righteousness never trumps the proper way of doing things by the book.

This is a perfect example of why the OF won’t be ‘traditionalized’ anytime soon. The better remedy is to find an EF and let the OF people have their OF their way.

 

[MarkThompson]

This is a perfect example of why the OF won’t be ‘traditionalized’ anytime soon. The better remedy is to find an EF and let the OF people have their OF their way.

Uh, I think the OP already covered this problematic attitude when he decried:
I also think that traditionalists tend to ghettoize themselves by only attending EF masses (not to mention the rampant craziness which drives people like myself away).

 

[Ockham]

Uh, I think the OP already covered this problematic attitude when he decried:
I also think that traditionalists tend to ghettoize themselves by only attending EF masses (not to mention the rampant craziness which drives people like myself away).

Yes he did. That latest post shows why so many choose to polarize themselves.

 

[MarkThompson]

Yes he did. That latest post shows why so many choose to polarize themselves.

Huh? Because one priest at one Mass didn’t like what he was doing (which, obviously, he hadn’t cleared with the priest beforehand), therefore “o much for ‘traditionalizing’ the ordinary form”?

 

[Student09]

I don’t know, I actually like the liturgy of the EF better.

Compare:

Accept, O Holy Father, Almighty and eternal God, this spotless host, which I, your unworthy servant, offer to You, my living and true God, to atone for my numberless sins, offenses and negligence; on behalf of all here present and likewise for all faithful Christians living and dead, that it may profit me and them as a means of salvation to life everlasting.
S. Amen.

O God, + who established the nature of man in wondrous dignity, and still more admirably restored it, grant that by the mystery of this water and wine, we may come to share in His Divinity, who humbled himself to share in our humanity, Jesus Christ, Your Son, our Lord. who lives and reigns with You in the unity of the holy Spirit, one God, forever and ever. Amen.

We offer You, O Lord, the chalice of salvation, humbly begging of Your mercy that it may arise before Your divine Majesty, with a pleasing fragrance, for our salvation and for that of the whole world. Amen.

With:

Blessed are you, Lord God of all creation, for through your goodness we have received the bread we offer you: fruit of the earth and work of human hands, it will become for us the bread of life.

Blessed are you, Lord God of all creation, for through your goodness we have received the wine we offer you: fruit of the vine and work of human hands it will become our spiritual drink. .

Or compare:

D. Cleanse my heart and my lips, O Almighty God, Who cleansed the lips of the Prophet Isaiah with a burning coal. In Your gracious mercy deign so to purify me that I may worthily proclaim Your holy Gospel. Through Christ our Lord. Amen.
Lord, grant me your blessing.

With:

D: May I have your blessing, Father.

(By the way those quotes are from the revised order of Mass

Also, even though the revised liturgy brings back “this pure victim, this holy victim, this spotless victim, the holy Bread of eternal life and the Chalice of everlasting salvation” - it is only in one of four Eucharistic prayers and since it is the longest one, how many priests do you think are going to choose it?

I don’t know, to me it’s not just incense and bells - although I like those - but I actually care about the prayers more.

 

[Ockham]

Huh? Because one priest at one Mass didn’t like what he was doing (which, obviously, he hadn’t cleared with the priest beforehand), therefore “o much for ‘traditionalizing’ the ordinary form”?

Yes, that is my opinion. Match the priest’s attitude with the post #5. It will be an uphill battle to ‘traditionalize’ the OF and much easier to attend an EF.

 

[Layman]

Hee hee! Am I the only one who sees the absurdity of trying to tradtionalise the N.O.? The N.O. was the answer to those who wanted to modernise the TLM! That’s what it’s for! That’s it’s raison d’etre!

Thank God for the N.O.! It saved the TLM!

Want a populist Mass where anyone can enter the sanctuary? You can attend the People’s Mass.
Want quiet, solemnity, history, reverence, sacrality and beauty? Attend the TLM.

 

[Ockham]

Thank God for the N.O.! It saved the TLM!

I’ve been seeing and hearing this a lot lately and now understand the reasoning. Perhaps the Holy Spirit gave us the Novus Ordo to protect the TLM from the rebellious and disobedient Age of Aquarius generation. Many Catholics were deprived of the TLM and its graces. It’s possible many souls missed Heaven, but in the end the TLM survived unscathed and will continue to worship God and lead the faithful to Him.

 

[Lycorth]

I’m all for “traditionalizing” the OF; I grew up in a very conservative parish where the priests and nuns went to great lengths to impute as much old-school traditionalism into the OF for many long years. I am very thankful for it because of the positive impact it had on me and the positive portrayal of tradition it conveyed. Sadly, it’s possible to celebrate the OF with far less reverence than this, as I eventually learned to my sorrow.

I don’t know, to me it’s not just incense and bells - although I like those - but I actually care about the prayers more.

Amen! It’s not about using more incense or ringing bells more often, but about the liturgy itself and the manner in which our faith is presented in its text, not to mention the manner in which the Lord is worshiped during it.

I’ve been seeing and hearing this a lot lately and now understand the reasoning. Perhaps the Holy Spirit gave us the Novus Ordo to protect the TLM from the rebellious and disobedient Age of Aquarius generation. Many Catholics were deprived of the TLM and its graces. It’s possible many souls missed Heaven, but in the end the TLM survived unscathed and will continue to worship God and lead the faithful to Him.

I am wondering that, myself. There is no logical reason for the introduction of a new form of the liturgy when the then-current form worked quite well for centuries. That which isn’t broken doesn’t need to be fixed; I can only wonder if divine intervention is the reason we have the OF, for the protection of the TLM. In fact, I hope it is the reason, otherwise one must impute either extreme naivety or malicious intent to those who designed the OF.

 

[giuseppeTO]

I’ve been seeing and hearing this a lot lately and now understand the reasoning. Perhaps the Holy Spirit gave us the Novus Ordo to protect the TLM from the rebellious and disobedient Age of Aquarius generation. Many Catholics were deprived of the TLM and its graces. It’s possible many souls missed Heaven, but in the end the TLM survived unscathed and will continue to worship God and lead the faithful to Him.

Perhaps the Holy Ghost gave us V2 to bring about the eventual revitalization of the Traditional Faith?

 

[tbtcom1213]

Apologies for being arrogant and not clearing with the priest MC/concelebrant about the bells and paten; I thank God that the priest MC/concelebrant forgave me and gave me a second chance;

The liturgy of the extraordinary form which I first served and still do is not only about the actions of the priest, ministers and servers but also about the prayers within the Missal which many cherish.

In my sinful ways and errors I have learned and reinforced the only valid reason to serve at the altar is for the greater glory of God in the Blessed Sacrament and nothing more. In serving I am subservient to God and to his alter Christus the priest who offers the sacrifice of our salvation.

Both forms of the Roman Rite have their place in the liturgical life of the Church. I grew up with the Ordinary form and later in life grew into the Extraordinary Form. I attend and serve both with privilege, heart and soul.

If I become a priest (I feel called and am therefore discerning) I will make it a point to celebrate Mass in all 23 rites of the Holy Mother Church.

 

[OraLabora]

Wouldn’t it be a lot easier to just go to an EF?

It will take generations for the OF to gain a significant sense of reverence and Sacrifice throughout the world.

There may be a place for the simplified OF liturgy as an introduction to the Mass for converts, during the Saturday vigil.

Balderdash.

Attend Mass at any of the Benedictine monasteries in the Solesmes Congregation.

Where I attend Mass (Saint-Benoît-du-Lac in Quebec), the entire Mass is chanted. Incense is used on Sunday and feasts. The Propers are chanted, unaccompanied, in Latin Gregorian chant from the Graduale Romanum (introit, gradual, alleluia and verse, offertory, and communion). The Kyriale in Greek and Latin is used with appropriate selections for the season/memorial/feast/solemnity. The rest of the Mass is in French plainchant. The readings are chanted. Bells are rung at the consecration. The only instrument used is a magnificent pipe organ, which is played before the Mass, at the Offertory after the Offertory hymn, and at the exit processional (the monks enter and leave in procession). It is not played during Advent and Lent except for Gaudete and Laetare Sundays.

At our founding monastery in Saint Wandrille, France, the entire weekday Mass is in Latin, with Sundays being like at Saint-Benoît (due to the large presence of the faithful). At a cloistered nun’s monastery in Montreal of the same congregation, Mass is in Latin twice a week; the rest of the time it is done as at my abbey.

Need I add that all of this is done in the Ordinary Form.

 

[Ockham]

Balderdash.

Mass attendance in Quebec is 10%. Churches can’t be given away. As Pope Benedict stated the Church may very well reduce to small pockets throughout the world. I don’t doubt there are still many faithful who participate in a reverence OF but the reality is those numbers are miniscule compared to what was forty years ago.

Enrollment in seminaries is down dramatically, Catholic practices among the laity are the same. Belief in the Real Presence is below 30%. As you worship so you believe.

 

[OraLabora]

Mass attendance in Quebec is 10%. Churches can’t be given away. As Pope Benedict stated the Church may very well reduce to small pockets throughout the world. I don’t doubt there are still many faithful who participate in a reverence OF but the reality is those numbers are miniscule compared to what was forty years ago.

Enrollment in seminaries is down dramatically, Catholic practices among the laity are the same. Belief in the Real Presence is below 30%. As you worship so you believe.

And yet, the monastery in question, where a reverent OF is sung every day, has had many new vocations in the years since I joined as an oblate. Including one young man from your neck of the woods (Cambridge\Waterloo area). Moreover, the abbey church is packed every Sunday, where the faithful, sickened by the abuses in the parishes, can attend a very reverent (OF) Mass.

The issue of Mass attendance in Quebec has nothing to do with the form of the Mass, and everything to do with a Jansenist clergy prior to the 60s that turned everyone off of Catholicism.

 

[Ockham]

And yet, the monastery in question, where a reverent OF is sung every day, has had many new vocations in the years since I joined as an oblate. Including one young man from your neck of the woods (Cambridge\Waterloo area). Moreover, the abbey church is packed every Sunday, where the faithful, sickened by the abuses in the parishes, can attend a very reverent (OF) Mass.

The issue of Mass attendance in Quebec has nothing to do with the form of the Mass, and everything to do with a Jansenist clergy prior to the 60s that turned everyone off of Catholicism.

Jansenist clergy produced a Jansenist liturgy which turned most Catholics off of Mass. To pretend the Novus Ordo had nothing to do with the disintegration of our Church is nieve at best.

realcatholictv.com/cia/03Massdest/index.php Watch both parts

May God bless you in your vocation.