Traditions of Man - Divorce and Remarriage

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Eden:
An annulment is not a divorce, it is a recognition that a valid marriage never took place.
Then what are the children of such a union? In the old days, the term bastard use to be used. But I have heard, there are no illegitamate children, just illegitamate unions.

But still, if no “valid” marriage, the children are born out of wedlock and the participants are fornicators.
 
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malachi_a_serva:
Then what are the children of such a union? In the old days, the term bastard use to be used. But I have heard, there are no illegitamate children, just illegitamate unions.

But still, if no “valid” marriage, the children are born out of wedlock and the participants are fornicators.
No. My parents’ marriage was annulled and I am legitimate.

"Canon 1137 states that children born or conceived of a valid or putative marriage are considered legitimate. Canon 1061 § 3 calls “putative” those marriages that, though invalid, were nevertheless celebrated in good faith by at least one of the parties, until that time, if any, when both parties become certain of its nullity. The great majority of the formal nullity cases coming before diocesan tribunals involve at least one, usually two, persons entering marriage in good faith, hence entering at least a putative marriage, resulting in the legitimacy of the children.

Moreover, if a child is born to parents not married or only civilly married, but the parents later validly or even putatively marry, such marriage automatically renders the child or children canonically legitimate (canon 1139). Even here, the later annulment of the marriage would not render these children canonically illegitimate. Finally, canon 1139 states that children can be legitimated by rescript of the Holy See. In brief, the granting of an annulment petition does nothing to affect the legitimacy of children."
 
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Eden:
Annulments are biblical
Could you please show me how it is biblical.
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Eden:
divorce is not.
Moses allowed divorce, yes all though because of a harden heart, yet he allowed it.

I am not trying to say divorce is right. As I said above, I believe it has 2 instances where it is Biblically allowed.

Remarriage I believe has 1 Biblical allowance.

I see a Catholic Annulment as a loop hole.

What about an “invalid” baptism. Where one of the parents never intended to raise the child in the Catholic faith. That would be under false pretenses. Is the Baptism invalid? Would that child be forsaken of salvation because the Baptism was invalid?

My point being, if there is a tribunal to determine if the sacrement of marriage was valid or not, why not a tribunal for all the sacrements?
 
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malachi_a_serva:
Why is there not “process” to determine is a murder was “valid”? People “murder”, however perhaps one was not a “valid” murder?

Again, just trying to illustrate a point and my tone is not of mocking or attack. I look forward to your response.

If there were such a process, wouldn’t it seem odd?
Eden…apologies for you, I am not trying to hijack the thread…
Malachai…this is for you since you don’t seem to understand the reasons why an annulment would be granted:

The Annulment Process

ISSUE: What is a declaration of nullity?

RESPONSE: A declaration of nullity is not a divorce. A divorce recognizes a marriage existed but allows common life to end. A declaration of nullity is a decree by a Church court stating that a marriage never existed. In a case of marriage nullity, the judges must determine if the minimum requirements of marriage were met, not if the ideal marriage was achieved. If minimum requirements were met, the validity of the marriage is upheld.

DISCUSSION: Many people explain marriage nullity as being a statement by the Church that a particular marriage was not a sacrament. This is entirely false. This explanation has no basis in Church teaching. If a marriage occurs, it is either a sacramental marriage or a natural marriage. Both are marriages. Both are recognized as valid and protected by the Church as holy unions. To be considered invalid, both require the same process. The fact that a marriage lacks sacramental dignity does not constitute grounds for invalidity.[1]
Code:
   To understand a declaration of nullity, we must know the general reasons for a declaration of nullity, the roles of the people involved, and the basic procedures used.
Grounds of Marriage Nullity
Code:
   Consent makes marriage. As stated in canon law:
Marriage is brought about through the consent of the parties, legitimately manifested between persons who are capable according to law of giving consent; no human power can replace this consent.[2]
Code:
   This means that to prove a marriage never existed requires proof that consent was never legitimately exchanged. Once consent is validly exchanged, a marriage occurs. If one of the spouses breaks the marriage vows, this does not "nullify" the marriage. Such acts are grave matter and morally wrong, but do not make a valid marriage invalid.

   Another way of explaining marriage consent is by analogy to the sacraments. Every sacrament must have proper form and matter to be valid. For the sacrament of Eucharist, the proper form is the words of consecration spoken by a priest. The proper matter is wheat bread and grape wine. When the words of consecration are prayed, the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus. If someone takes the Sacred Host and breaks it into pieces, it remains the Body of Christ. Furthermore, if the priest later decides he doesn’t believe in the True Presence, his lack of faith does not remove the True Presence from those Sacred Species in the tabernacle. In the same way, marriage has proper form and matter. The form is the words and rituals used to exchange consent. The proper matter for marriage is the man and woman capable of giving consent. Once the marriage vows are legitimately exchanged, the marriage remains, even if the vows are broken or the spouses believe the marriage is dead.

   To prove consent was never legitimately exchanged, one of three things must be established: 1) the proper form of marriage was not used, 2) one or both of the parties were incapable of exchanging consent, or 3) consent itself was not exchanged.
 
Form of Marriage
Code:
   The form of marriage refers to the wedding ceremony; the ritual used to exchange consent. Catholics must follow the Catholic form of marriage. Even if only one of the parties is Catholic, the Catholic form must be followed.[3]

   For Catholics belonging to the Western, Latin Rite Church, the form requires that consent be exchanged in the presence of a cleric, in accordance with the approved liturgical rite, and witnessed by two other people.[4]  The cleric assisting at the wedding must have the proper authority to witness the marriage in the name of the Church. In certain circumstances, when a genuine shortage of priests and deacons exists, members of the lay faithful can receive delegation from the diocesan bishop to assist at marriages.[5] 

   In the Eastern Catholic Churches, the required form is a bit different. "Only those marriages are valid which are celebrated with a sacred rite, in the presence of the local hierarch, local pastor, or a priest who has been given the faculty of blessing the marriage by either of them, and at least two witnesses." [6] 

   The "sacred rite" means a priest must assist and give a blessing.[7]  Contrary to the discipline of the Western Catholic Church, the nuptial blessing is required for validity in the Eastern Catholic Churches. A deacon cannot assist at a marriage because he cannot give the nuptial blessing. If an Eastern Rite Catholic contracts marriage with a member of an Eastern Orthodox Church according to the laws of the Orthodox Church, but without the permission of the Catholic hierarch, the marriage is valid if the nuptial blessing was given by a priest.[8]

   In certain circumstances, the local ordinary or hierarch can dispense from the required form of marriage. However, if a Catholic attempts marriage and neglects the proper form of marriage, the marriage is invalid.
Diriment Impediments
Code:
   A diriment impediment is a situation or condition that makes a person incapable of entering marriage.[9]  If a diriment impediment exists and consent is exchanged, no marriage is contracted.

   Before a priest witnesses a marriage, he is obligated to investigate the couple’s situation and make certain no impediments exist.[10]  This is usually done through a pre-nuptial questionnaire and a review of legal documents (e.g., birth and baptismal certificates).

   Some impediments are established by ecclesiastical law. They refer only to Catholics and are disciplines imposed for the right order of the sacraments and married life. In certain circumstances, they can be dispensed. Other impediments are established by divine law and cannot be dispensed. Divine law impediments apply to Catholics and non-Catholics alike.

   Examples of diriment impediments that can be dispensed include: Marriage with a non-baptized person, consanguinity in the collateral line (marriage with a cousin), and legal relationship arising from adoption. Examples of diriment impediments that cannot be dispensed include: Antecedent and perpetual impotence, bond of a previous marriage, and affinity in the direct line (marriage with a parent or grandparent).[11]
Marriage Consent
Code:
   If the form of marriage is properly observed and no impediments exist, each of the parties in a marriage must still give free consent. If one or both do not give consent, a marriage never occurs. In general, there are three categories of defective consent: 1) Defects of knowledge, 2) conditioned consent, and 3) defects of will.[12]  Several, more specific grounds are found in each category.

   Generally speaking, defects of knowledge refer to situations in which one or both people do not have the necessary knowledge to choose marriage in their specific situation. For example, canon 1097§1 reads: "Error of the person renders marriage invalid." This means if Jacob intends to marry Rachel, but her sister, Leah, wears a bridal veil and he mistakenly marries her instead, the marriage is invalid.[13] 

   Conditioned consent refers to a person qualifying his consent or placing conditions that violate the minimum requirements of marriage. A person not intending to have children is an example of conditioned consent. Children are a gift from God and, by divine law, all marriages must remain open to children. Specifically excluding children at the time of consent invalidates the consent.[14]

   A defect of will occurs when a person marries against his will. Force and grave fear are examples of grounds in this category.[15]

   The judges hearing the case determine what the ground of nullity will be. They establish the grounds after reviewing the information given them by the petitioner and the responses offered by the respondent. Most important to remember, if the minimum requirements to enter marriage are met, the marriage occurs and no declaration of nullity should be given.
 
Eden said:
"Canon 1137 states that children born or conceived of a valid or putative marriage are considered legitimate. Canon 1061 § 3 calls “putative” those marriages that, though invalid, were nevertheless celebrated in good faith by at least one of the parties, until that time, if any, when both parties become certain of its nullity. The great majority of the formal nullity cases coming before diocesan tribunals involve at least one, usually two, persons entering marriage in good faith, hence entering at least a putative marriage, resulting in the legitimacy of the children.

Moreover, if a child is born to parents not married or only civilly married, but the parents later validly or even putatively marry, such marriage automatically renders the child or children canonically legitimate (canon 1139). Even here, the later annulment of the marriage would not render these children canonically illegitimate. Finally, canon 1139 states that children can be legitimated by rescript of the Holy See. In brief, the granting of an annulment petition does nothing to affect the legitimacy of children."

Sounds more like a high price legal attorney dancing in a court room to get his/her client off the hook.
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Eden:
those marriages that, though invalid, were nevertheless celebrated in good faith by at least one of the parties
What if both parties had false pretences? I bet those do not happen or else it would put the CC in a vicarious position.
 
People Involved
Code:
   There are three principle parties, or people, involved in the process investigating marriage nullity. A petitioner is the person who files for the declaration of nullity. A respondent is the other spouse in the marriage under review. The defender of the bond is a person appointed by the court to defend the marriage bond. He "is bound by office to propose and clarify everything which can be reasonably adduced against nullity or dissolution."[16]

   There are others also involved in the matter. A judge is the person appointed to determine whether the marriage is invalid. Cases concerning marriage nullity generally require a court of three judges.[17]  In certain circumstances, it is permissible for a bishop to allow a single judge to hear a case of marriage nullity. If only one judge is appointed on a marriage case, he must be a priest or deacon.[18]  An auditor is a person appointed to assist the judge in gathering facts.[19] 

   A procurator is a person who acts in the name of one of the parties. An advocate is a person who defends the position of one of the parties. In most cases, a person using the services of a procurator or advocate must give permission for them to act. This permission is called a mandate.[20]
 
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BlestOne:
Malachai…this is for you since you don’t seem to understand the reasons why an annulment would be granted:
I understand why it would be granted; I just see it as a loophole. I would need to see where it is taught in the Bible. Then, I would think that non-Catholic churches could practice it. Then remarriages would be no problem for them either.

I guess I am a little touching having had a Catholic marriage, to a Catholic partner. She had an affair. The marriage ended. The church told me “s*it happens” (sorry I tell this story too much), then proceeded to tell me the approximate cost of an annulment.

A marriage is a marriage. A divorce is a divorce. The church doesn’t recognize a civil divorce yet one is require prior to an annulment. (???).

Again, seems like a loophole too me.

So too me, to criticize a non-Catholic denomination for allowing remarriage when the Catholic Church does as well - they just validate it by a loophole - is hypercritical.
 
Firstly, I showed how annulments are biblical and divorce is not already.

So, does your church allow for divorce and remarriage? You still haven’t answered that.
 
Malachai,
I too am divorced and annuled and remarried…I know my first marriage was never valid for many reasons…I had a take your pick session over my annulment…it was actually pathetic that I married the guy. Where to start…
My ex was still married when we got married…he forgot to tell me about her
My ex fraudulently portrayed himself as a Catholic, when in fact he considered himself a pagan high priest
There were diagnosed mental disorders that were not disclosed to me
There was an alcohol and a drug addiction problem that was not in recovery as I was told it was…
So far the imediments are fraud, medical inability to freely consent and …the one I haven’t mentioned yet…he cleverly cancelled our wedding and coerced me to be married outside of the church. So now I HAVE DEFECT OF FORM TO BOOT!!!
It only would take one of these to be granted a declaration of nullity…I think I hit each one.
 
ok…from my last post you can see that the marriage should never have taken place…so when I went through my annulment it also included alot of soul searching as to why I allowed some of these things to happen…and alot of skills review about what is important in a spouse… all of this under the direction of my priest. After all, this is as much about healing and preventing the same to happen ever again as it is to declare that I was never in a valid marriage. I really think this was such an important part of the healing process.
 
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BlestOne:
Malachai,
I too am divorced and annuled and remarried…I know my first marriage was never valid for many reasons…I had a take your pick session over my annulment…it was actually pathetic that I married the guy. Where to start…
My ex was still married when we got married…he forgot to tell me about her
My ex fraudulently portrayed himself as a Catholic, when in fact he considered himself a pagan high priest
There were diagnosed mental disorders that were not disclosed to me
There was an alcohol and a drug addiction problem that was not in recovery as I was told it was…
So far the imediments are fraud, medical inability to freely consent and …the one I haven’t mentioned yet…he cleverly cancelled our wedding and coerced me to be married outside of the church. So now I HAVE DEFECT OF FORM TO BOOT!!!
It only would take one of these to be granted a declaration of nullity…I think I hit each one.
Sorry to hear of your experience. I guess my point being…it is only “invalide” because the church says those “things” make it “not valid”. But in reality, you were ther, your spouse was there…etc…etc…it happened. But I understand the “rational” behind it. It still means you were married before. Althought The Church says your first one was not valid. Everyone that attended, would they say one didn’t happen?

Not trying to argue. Why isn’t there a tribunal to determine if a first communion was valid? A confession? A confirmation? WHy, because the church needed a loophole because people wanted to and were getting remarried. They needed to “invalidate” one so as to not contradicte their beliefs.
 
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Eden:
Firstly, I showed how annulments are biblical and divorce is not already.

So, does your church allow for divorce and remarriage? You still haven’t answered that.
Sorry Eden, I did not see where you showed it a biblical practice?

As for my church (if the question is too me?). I have no idea…I am the only devorced person in my church (and I am an ex-Catholic). Everyone else is married, one time, small congregation…about 60 members. All families, hunky dory.

I believe my Pastor does not and would not allow for a remarriage. I will have to ask him.
 
Why isn’t there a tribunal to determine if a first communion was valid? A confession? A confirmation?

Why just for thge sacrament of marriage?
 
Understand what you are saying but how often does one need that kind of thing with say reconcilliation or first eucharist? Women were dying from abuse yet would not leave their abuser…should we force them to stay? I got socked with a $70,000 medical bill for a guy who wasn’t really my husband (because he defrauded me and insurance was in my name)… would this happen with those sacraments? I think you are being a little legalistic…think about the ramifications…can one die from a bad confession? Can they lose their children from an invalid communion? Where there are more consequences there has to be more accountibility.
 
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malachi_a_serva:
Sorry Eden, I did not see where you showed it a biblical practice?
I showed that divorce is not biblical but annulments are in post 19.
 
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malachi_a_serva:
Why isn’t there a tribunal to determine if a first communion was valid? A confession? A confirmation?

Why just for thge sacrament of marriage?
Only one person enters into these other Sacraments. You think someone who received First Communion will petition for the sacrament to be declared invalid because it was entered into under false pretenses? I’d like to see that!
 
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Eden:
These are two teachings in the Bible where a marriage can be declared invalid (annulment), not a divorce.
An annullment is not given without a civil divorce is that correct? Does a legal, civil divorce need to take place before an annullment?
 
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Eden:
Only one person enters into these other Sacraments. You think someone who received First Communion will petition for the sacrament to be declared invalid because it was entered into under false pretenses? I’d like to see that!
Shouldn’t the church be concerned for their eternal soul? If one of the other sacrements are invalid, the person’s salvation is at risk. I would think this should be motivation for the church to ensure other sacrements are “valid”. In fact, this would be a greater concern…an eternal concern vs. an earthly concern. As you have positioned it above, it would seem the church’s concerns are misplaced. They are worldly concerns vs. eternal concerns.
 
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malachi_a_serva:
Shouldn’t the church be concerned for their eternal soul? If one of the other sacrements are invalid, the person’s salvation is at risk. I would think this should be motivation for the church to ensure other sacrements are “valid”. In fact, this would be a greater concern…an eternal concern vs. an earthly concern.
Actually, no one is required to receive the Sacrament of Matrimony. Some people never marry and their soul is not at risk. Are you asking if one will go to hell for never marrying? Most Catholics will never receive all seven sacraments. As I will never be ordained, I will never receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders. You don’t seem to understand Sacraments from your concern about others being valid.
 
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