Traditions of Man - Prohibition of Alcohol

[Fredricks]

b_justb:

I think this is a fair question and framed well. For all the opposing arguments I don’t see any that are directly answering the question. I see people using their personal feelings and pointing to 21st century emotions and trying to cram them into biblical ideas.

Jewish weddings were huge celebrations (OP’s Jn 2 ref) that lasted for about a week. Traditionally you had the good wine up front, and then when the guests were tipsy you switch to the not so good wine, but still had plenty. This is why everyone is so amazed that the best wine was saved for last, Jesus’ wine. So we have Jesus providing the best wine to people that had already been drinking for days. That’s the Scriptural account.

Now if one holds a personal conviction that they should not drink alcohol or that alcohol is best left alone, then fine. But to take a personal choice and place God’s name on it as the way to behave as a Christian is just simply not the thing to do.

I disagree with Sola Scriptura, but I do understand it. If that is going to be ones final authority then one cannot dismiss from that final authority verses such as:

“Let no one, then, pass judgment on you in matters of food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon or sabbath.” Colossians 2:16

“For a bishop as God’s steward must be blameless, not arrogant, not irritable, not a drunkard, not aggressive, not greedy for sordid gain, but hospitable, a lover of goodness, temperate, just, holy, and self-controlled, holding fast to the true message as taught so that he will be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents.” Titus 1:7-9 – Notice “drunkard,” not: “Thou shalt not drink.”

“Similarly, older women should be reverent in their behavior, not slanderers, not addicted to drink, teaching what is good, …” Titus 2:3 – again the addiction is what is prohibited.

If you personally don’t think it’s OK to drink alcohol; then don’t. May God grant you grace and peace. If you think it’s OK to drink, then do so, but make sure not to cause your brother to stumble. May God grant you grace and peace.

2000 years ago did teenagers have cars?
How many teenagers died and their parents called because their night of moderate drinking turned into something more?
What was the pregnancy rate of unwed teens?
Was there a culture around them that promoted violence and the abuse of women?
Did they have meth to combine with their drinking?

 

[Eden]

2000 years ago did teenagers have cars?
How many teenagers died and their parents called because their night of moderate drinking turned into something more?
What was the pregnancy rate of unwed teens?
Was there a culture around them that promoted violence and the abuse of women?
Did they have meth to combine with their drinking?

Are you telling me that God can’t foresee that some might abuse alcohol? The evils of alcohol you describe are coming from satan not from the Catholic (and biblically based) teaching that moderate drinking is not morally wrong. You are blaming the Church when the true evil is addiction. Addiction is from the devil, not alcohol.

 

[Eden]

Fr. Corapi has a very powerful series on Addiction:

[www.fathercorapi.com/Addiction-The-Spiritual-Roots-of-All-Addiction](http://www.fathercorapi.com/)

 

[b_justb]

2000 years ago did teenagers have cars?
How many teenagers died and their parents called because their night of moderate drinking turned into something more?
What was the pregnancy rate of unwed teens?
Was there a culture around them that promoted violence and the abuse of women?
Did they have meth to combine with their drinking?

What do any of these questions or the answers to them have to do with the original question posed by the OP? Nothing.

Thank you for demonstrating my point that the “Christians have nothing to do with alcohol” crowd base that on nothing but their own ideas and emotions and then cram those into biblical ethics.

If YOU don’t want to drink then don’t, there is no condemnation. But to tell others not to in the name of Christianity is wrong.

 

[Fredricks]

b_justb:

.

If YOU don’t want to drink then don’t, there is no condemnation. But to tell others not to in the name of Christianity is wrong.

No, telling people to flee from immoral conduct and not to be a stumbling block is Christian.
Showing compassion to broken families and communities devasted by alcohol and drug abuse is Christian.Sending a consistent moral message to our youth, is Christian.

 

[estesbob]

Fredricks:

My context comes from the effects of rampant alcohol abuse.
Before you question me, where do you live and what is your job? I know that you cannot answer me. Let me answer you,
URBAN and working with drug, alcohol, and pregnant teenagers.
We run an Al-anon group and an AA group in our fellowship hall at the church. My brother is also a mortician. My other brother is a police officer. No need to go along the family line, but we have seen enough of this. If you guys think this message of moderate wine drinking will fly in this community, come on down.

I am a recovering alchohoilc with 20 years of sobriety who has worked with hundreds of alchoholics over the years. No group “RUNS” an AA or Al-anon group. And if you went into any of the 1,000s of AA meetings I have attened in the last 20 years and tried to preach the message that the ready availability of alchohol was our problem you would be hooted out of the meeting quickly. BTW-NOBODY HERE is suggesting that alchoholics should be told to drink in moderation. Nobody . You, however, seem to beleive that since** some** people have probelms with drugs and alchohol it should not be made available to anyone. Its not societies fault people abuse drugs or alchohol-most people learn that at their very first meeting.

I also, BTW, have had extensive experience counseling at a Crisis Preganancy center. I would NEVER adopt the attitude of anger towards others that you seem to have. The first step to recovery(and abstinence ) is taking is taking respnsibility for your own actions.

As one who has spent over 20 years working\s extensivley in both the areas you claim to work in and having NEVER run across the attitude you express in this thread my ONLY conclusion can be you anger stems from anti-catholocism. I hope I am wrong but , having read your posts, I can come to no other conclusion

 

[b_justb]

Fredricks:

No, telling people to flee from immoral conduct and not to be a stumbling block is Christian.
Showing compassion to broken families and communities devasted by alcohol and drug abuse is Christian.Sending a consistent moral message to our youth, is Christian.

Yes all of those things are Christian. But this thread isn’t about any of those things. It’s about the Biblical Teaching of Alcohol Consumption; which you have not addressed. You have addressed your personal thoughts about it, but not the Scriptural teachings about it.

It’s clear you think it’s wrong for your own reasons, and you may hold them and proclaim them. But what is not clear is if you hold them because you think it’s a biblical precept?

So we’ll ask that question. Do you hold that alcohol consumption of any kind is immoral as a teaching of Scripture? If so please explain why in light of Scripture that state otherwise.

 

[Fredricks]

QUOTE=estesbob]I am a recovering alchohoilc with 20 years of sobriety who has worked with hundreds of alchoholics over the years. No group “RUNS” an AA or Al-anon group. And if you went into any of the 1,000s of AA meetings I have attened in the last 20 years and tried to preach the message that the ready availability of alchohol was our problem you would be hooted out of the meeting quickly.

who said anything about prohibition
They are ran out of the fellowship hall and WE provide snacks, treats, everything, chairs.

BTW-NOBODY HERE is suggesting that alchoholics should be told to drink in moderation. Nobody . You, however, seem to beleive that since** some** people have probelms with drugs and alchohol it should not be made available to anyone.

no one said anything about prohibition

Its not societies fault people abuse drugs or alchohol-most people learn that at their very first meeting.

I also, BTW, have had extensive experience counseling at a Crisis Preganancy center. I would NEVER adopt the attitude of anger towards others that you seem to have. The first step to recovery(and abstinence ) is taking is taking respnsibility for your own actions.

I will speak out against those who promote an agenda that destroys our families.

As one who has spent over 20 years working\s extensivley in both the areas you claim to work in and having NEVER run across the attitude you express in this thread my ONLY conclusion can be you anger stems from anti-catholocism. I hope I am wrong but , having read your posts, I can come to no other conclusion

You have never ran across a person who hates what alcohol and drug abuse is doing to families? You have never met someone who has devoted their life to helping people out of this pattern.
I do hate that for every store there are two liquor stores and that is a serious issue. You do not know anything about me and our community.

 

[Fredricks]

b_justb:

Yes all of those things are Christian. But this thread isn’t about any of those things. It’s about the Biblical Teaching of Alcohol Consumption; which you have not addressed. You have addressed your personal thoughts about it, but not the Scriptural teachings about it.

It’s clear you think it’s wrong for your own reasons, and you may hold them and proclaim them. But what is not clear is if you hold them because you think it’s a biblical precept?

So we’ll ask that question. Do you hold that alcohol consumption of any kind is immoral as a teaching of Scripture? If so please explain why in light of Scripture that state otherwise.

I think that anyone who would try to advocate moderate drinking is living a fantasy world, devoid of reality outside of their sphere.
I think the studies I posted clearly show that Catholics are more likely to abuse alcohol and that has severe reprocussions on society. I do not sugest that Catholics are responsible for societies ills, I do think their flippant attitudes show a lack of concern for the spiritual well being of their weaker brothers, who they should be trying to reach for Jesus.

 

[Fredricks]

No one HAS SAID a thing about repealing any amendments to the Constitution. That is a complete red herring to shift the focus away from a lax attitude towards things that can destroy our youth.

 

[b_justb]

Fredricks:

I think that anyone who would try to advocate moderate drinking is living a fantasy world, devoid of reality outside of their sphere.
I think the studies I posted clearly show that Catholics are more likely to abuse alcohol and that has severe reprocussions on society. I do not sugest that Catholics are responsible for societies ills, I do think their flippant attitudes show a lack of concern for the spiritual well being of their weaker brothers, who they should be trying to reach for Jesus.

You didn’t answer this question: Do you hold that alcohol consumption of any kind is immoral as a teaching of Scripture? If so please explain why in light of Scripture that state otherwise.

If you think “anyone who would try to advocate moderate drinking is living a fantasy world, devoid of reality outside of their sphere” then you would have include the Apostle Paul. Pretty huge promotion to judge one of the Apostles. Do you really want that job?

 

[Fredricks]

You didn’t answer this question: Do you hold that alcohol consumption of any kind is immoral as a teaching of Scripture? If so please explain why in light of Scripture that state otherwise.

No of course not.

If you think “anyone who would try to advocate moderate drinking is living a fantasy world, devoid of reality outside of their sphere” then you would have include the Apostle Paul. Pretty huge promotion to judge one of the Apostles. Do you really want that job?

You are missing context entirely. Our society has decayed to such a degree that what is acceptable in a few situations is not an acceptable message to preach to our youth.
I cannot imagine that Paul would stand in front of our youth group, most of their friends belong to gangs, most are not being raised by two parents, many have been abused by alcoholic parents, had their peers impregnated while intoxicated, and preach a message about how you should drink in moderation when you are an adult. It appears that people are more concerned about their selfish philosophical arugments then being a witness to dying and pained world.
the original question was “how do you justify”, thus my answers.

 

[BryPGuy89]

Eden:

For those who belong to denominations which prohibit the drinking of alcohol, how do you justify this tradition of man which contradicts the scriptures and still claim to be a denomination which is biblically based?

2:1 And the third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee: and the mother of Jesus was there.

2:2 And Jesus also was invited, and his disciples, to the marriage.

2:3 And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine.

2:4 And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come.

2:5 His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.

2:6 Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three measures apiece.

2:7 Jesus saith to them: Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.

2:8 And Jesus saith to them: Draw out now, and carry to the chief steward of the feast. And they carried it.

2:9 And when the chief steward had tasted the water made wine, and knew not whence it was, but the waiters knew who had drawn the water; the chief steward calleth the bridegroom,

2:10 And saith to him: Every man at first setteth forth good wine, and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse. But thou hast kept the good wine until now.

2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee; and manifested his glory, and his disciples believed in him.

I don’t think alcohal should be prohibites, but used in modesty, like a glass of wine with dinner, or a glass or two on holidays.

 

[Eden]

Fredricks:

You are missing context entirely. Our society has decayed to such a degree that what is acceptable in a few situations is not an acceptable message to preach to our youth.
I cannot imagine that Paul would stand in front of our youth group, most of their friends belong to gangs, most are not being raised by two parents, many have been abused by alcoholic parents, had their peers impregnated while intoxicated, and preach a message about how you should drink in moderation when you are an adult. It appears that people are more concerned about their selfish philosophical arugments then being a witness to dying and pained world.
the original question was “how do you justify”, thus my answers.

Fredericks is imposing his theory that moderate drinking is not possible as it is the cause for societal evils. He is blaming alcohol when the larger issue is the sinfulness of the world. I still don’t see how teen pregnancies and gangs are related to the moderate drinking of alcohol. I also don’t see how the prohibition of alcohol will eliminate teen pregnancies and gang involvement.

Citing societal problems still does not answer the original question which is how do biblically-based denominations justify their tradition of prohibiting alcohol when the prohibition of alcohol is not biblical.

 

[kleary]

Fredricks:

Because it destroys our homes, enslaves people, is glorified by our youth due to the influence of the popular culture from music and television, and is when kids and young adults are involved in gangs, drinking, meth, and pot seem to go hand in hand.
When I see Catholics gloryifying or being flippant about the abuses heaped upon people because of drinking, it disgusts me.
You guys can preach moderation all you want but we are not interested in philosophical discourse about things that destroy our families.
Bury someone hit by a drunk driver, and then ask your question. Does that answer your question?

No because Jesus drank alcoholic wine, was accused of being a drunkard and used alcoholic wine (changed it into his blood) in the Last Supper.

Ken

 

[estesbob]

Fredricks:

I think the studies I posted clearly show that Catholics are more likely to abuse alcohol and that has severe reprocussions on society. I do not sugest that Catholics are responsible for societies ills, I do think their flippant attitudes show a lack of concern for the spiritual well being of their weaker brothers, who they should be trying to reach for Jesus.

Nonsense-there are no credible studies that show this. More anti-catholicism on your part. I suspect that you feel the first step for recovery is making people drop their “papist” ways.

I ran into a few people like you over the years-especially at the CPC I worked at(like as I said most AA members would dismiss you out of hand). They were more concerned about recruiting the woman in crisis for their Church than they were about her unborn child.

I pity anyone who is looking for help with their addiction who comes to you.

 

[estesbob]

Eden:

Fredericks is imposing his theory that moderate drinking is not possible as it is the cause for societal evils. He is blaming alcohol when the larger issue is the sinfulness of the world. I still don’t see how teen pregnancies and gangs are related to the moderate drinking of alcohol. I also don’t see how the prohibition of alcohol will eliminate teen pregnancies and gang involvement.

Citing societal problems still does not answer the original question which is how do biblically-based denominations justify their tradition of prohibiting alcohol when the prohibition of alcohol is not biblical.

Actually the message Fredericks is promoting is that societies problems stem from drugs, alchohol and catholics. I think he/she would like to see all three banned. I seriously doubt he/she really works with alchohoilics. I cant imagine any member of AA would put up with the nonsense he/she spouts.

 

[Fredricks]

estesbob:

Nonsense-there are no credible studies that show this. More anti-catholicism on your part. I suspect that you feel the first step for recovery is making people drop their “papist” ways.

I ran into a few people like you over the years-especially at the CPC I worked at(like as I said most AA members would dismiss you out of hand). They were more concerned about recruiting the woman in crisis for their Church than they were about her unborn child.

I pity anyone who is looking for help with their addiction who comes to you.

Dismissing just the few studies as “not credible” does not make it so. Do you have quantitative or qualitative research that shows otherwise?
You continue to impugn my character, which is your choice.
You do not know me. You do not know what we do for children.
We never ask anyone to join a church, I work for the government, cannot do that. I do see people in the community and they know where to find me.
Your hostility towards me comes from something other than Christ friend.

 

[Eden]

Fredericks has still not defended the unbiblical tradition of prohibiting moderate drinking. He is bible-only yet the bible does not agree with his conclusions:

Matt. 26:27,29; Mark 14:23,25; Luke 22:17-18; 1 Cor. 11:25-27 - Jesus instituted the Eucharist using wine and commanded us to “do this in remembrance of me.” We know that Jesus instituted the Eucharist at the Jewish seder meal, which required the use of wine. Yet some Protestant churches forbid drinking wine. Such a prohibition is not based on the Scriptures.

Luke 7:33-34 - God the Son drank wine and was accused of being a drunk. Are those Protestant churches that forbid the drinking of wine doing the same?

John 2:1-11 - Jesus’ first miracle was turning water into wine which was drunk at the wedding at Cana. Wine is a symbol of the life of the Church, in both the Eucharist and, here, the sanctification of the sacrament of marriage. Verse 10 also indicates that the people drank enough wine at the feast to the point that they might not have recognized good wine from bad wine. Yet Jesus creates for them more wine to drink.

1 Tim. 5:23 - Paul tells Timothy to drink not just water, but a little wine for the sake of his stomach and frequent ailments. If Paul under divine inspiration encourages the drinking of wine, why do some Protestant churches prohibit it?

Gen. 14:18 - Melchizedek offers a bread and wine sacrifice, and Jesus is the Priest in the same manner. Heb. 5:6,10; 6:20; 7:15,17.

Gen. 27:25 - Isaac brought Jacob wine, and he drank, with God’s favor.

Neh. 8:10 - Nehemiah commands the faithful to drink sweet wine to celebrate the Lord and His holy day.

Psalm 104:15 - the Psalmist writes that “wine gladdens the heart of a man.” God gave us the fruit of the vine to enjoy.

Ecclesiastes 9:7 - “drink your wine with a merry heart, for God approves what you do.”

Wisdom 2:7 - “Let us take our fill of costly wine and perfumes!”

Sir. 31:25-28 - “Wine is like life if drunk in moderation.” God created wine to make us glad, so we rejoice in heart, and have gladness of soul.

Sir. 40:20 - “Wine gladdens the heart.”

Isaiah 25:6 - God will provide a feast of rich foods and choice wines.

Amos 9:14 - God declares that His people shall plant their vineyards and drink their wine.

Zech. 10:7 - God says that when He saves His people, their hearts shall be glad as with wine.

2 Mac. 15:39 - this verse also describes the pleasure of drinking wine. The point is that all God made is good, and we are called to enjoy His good gifts, including drinking wine, as long as we do so in moderation. And while we drink in moderation, the miracle that Jesus performed at the wedding feast at Cana suggests that we can have a second glass!

www.scripturecatholic.com

 

[Fredricks]

Actually the message Fredericks is promoting is that societies problems stem from drugs, alchohol and catholics. I think he/she would like to see all three banned

Drugs are banned, so that would be just two if that were the case. I would never favor banning alcohol, that did not work. I am a huge proponent of religious freedom. Do you have a reason for these baseless accusations.

I seriously doubt he/she really works with alchohoilics.

Impugn character.

I cant imagine any member of AA would put up with the nonsense he/she spouts.

I direct people to organizations that help in my day job. In my job outside with my church, we help the best we can through the generous donations of those who want to see our community protected from these abuses.