Traditions

[MistyF]

elle:

So, see, my point with the guys, the guys who invited me here, but I don’t see now, was Jesus was so totally Jewish. I don’t think He made a lot of new things up. I think the Jews had screwed up the instructions the Father gave them, and He was coming to restore them to the proper order.

Like handwashing, a Jewish tradition. They said it was a LAW, because it was such a long-standing tradition. He calls it their law, not His Law. See what I mean?

So, my point was, he didn’t come to invent a bunch of new traditions, just to steer everybody back to the BASICS of what was given to the children of Israel in the wilderness. To die for us, and forgive our sins, yes, but more. To restore us back to the BASICS of what was taught. My point was, He did not come adding a bunch of NEW stuff. He specifically said He did not come to do away with the law.

In fact, the Jews had added several traditions, during that time. He did not condone or participate in those traditions.

Yes, Jesus was Jewish. He came to fulfill His covenant with the Jews. And much of the laws that are similar to tradition that Jesus began were meant to prefigure Jesus’ life. Sacrifices were required of the Jews. Christ sacrificed His life, which fulfilled the requirements that had been made for animal sacrifices. No longer were animal sacrifices required. And when the animal sacrifices were instituted, God KNEW that Jesus would fulfill their meaning, He planned it that way.

It wasn’t that the Jews had screwed up tradition and law that God gave them (though it is true that they often did!), and that Jesus came here to put that right. He came here to offer His life on our behalf. Prior to Him, there was no Christianity. But there was still God, and faith in Him. After Jesus’ death, faith in God, and following him sort of “became” Christianity (can’t find a better way to say that). But they were in harmony with each other. The way God planned it was that Jesus would fulfill and bring meaning to Jewish law.

 

[elle]

JimG:

He used the occasion of a Passover meal to institute the Eucharist at the Last Supper, the fulfillment of the old covenant, and the establishment of the new covenant in his body and blood–one sacrifice.

So, why not celebrate Passover every year? Instead of changing it up.

This happened at Pentecost, the birthday of the church.

Technically, it was Shavout.The anniversary of the giving of the law. They were all out being baptized, mikvehed, immersed, if you will. Yeah, out celebrating a JEWISH holiday. How come WE don’t keep this holiday anymore.

If his Church was to be able to carry on, His apostles needed successors when they died, thus the sacrament of ordination.

Who said the apostles needed successors? Did Jesus say that?

The Jews had animal sacrifices and prayer offerings for sin;

Edit that to say, “The Jews had animal sacrifices for NON-INTENTIONAL sin.” There was no sacrifice for intentional sin.

 

[Lillith]

MistyF:

I hope I don’t get any of this wrong, I’m just learning myself. But, I’ve never seen anything about people speaking in tongues in modern day within the Catholic Church.

Receiving the Sacrament of the Eucharist isn’t receiving the Holy Spirit. Jesus told His apostles to eat the bread, which was His flesh, and drink the wine, which was His blood. Catholic Answers has a good article which explains that Jesus’ flesh and blood are literally within the Eucharist.

Hello Misty…I have seen Cqatholics speak in tongues at Charismatic Masses…I personally don’t have that gift but it was exciting to watch!!

 

[MistyF]

Is there a deeper question that you have, or something else that you are trying to get at with the answer to this question? Are you wondering about the Divinity of Christ, whether He really was Who He says He is? Can you give us some background on what led to this question?

 

[elle]

Aye, yi yi. You guys have been listening to your protestant friends too much about sacrifices.

Okay, let’s clear this up. It put things in a whole new light for me when I come to understand this.

1. There are sacrifices for non-intentional sins, and sacrifices just to show God how much you love Him.
2. Nowhere in the Bible does it list a sacrifice for an intentional sin. Not a bull, not a goat, not a dove. No sacrifice.
3. The sacrifice for intention sin, was, is, and will always be, the sacrifice of His son.
4. Old testament believers were saved just like we (protestants) are. We, protestants, believe in the Messiah who CAME, to forgive our sins. Old testament believed in the Messiah who WOULD COME.

I tell ya, once I grasped those things, it cleared up a lot of questions for me.

And, I don’t really consider myself protestant, although you guys would call me that.

 

[elle]

I came to talk to Ryan and others who insisted that Jesus invented something new. I’m a Hebrew roots person. I study the real roots of my faith back to Adam. Like, you know, baptism didn’t start with John, it started with Adam. Adam was repetent when he got kicked out of the garden. He still had access to the river. He would immerse himself, and ask forgiveness. Thus, immersion, baptism, began. It helps me to understand my faith. It helps me to understand Jesus.

But, I will argue until I’m blue in the face, to point out, Jesus did not invent something new. He came to fulfill something that already was. And, to clear up all the ADDED TRADITIONS. I do believe our churches, OUR CHURCHES, ALL OF THEM, have added traditions that have no place in God’s Kingdom. My church, your church, the protestant church, catholic church, mormon church, whatever. It’s specifically what He came teaching against.

 

[MistyF]

3. The sacrifice for intention sin, was, is, and will always be, the sacrifice of His son.

Hebrews 10: 26 says:

If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins

 

[Lillith]

elle:

I came to talk to Ryan and others who insisted that Jesus invented something new. I’m a Hebrew roots person. I study the real roots of my faith back to Adam. Like, you know, baptism didn’t start with John, it started with Adam. Adam was repetent when he got kicked out of the garden. He still had access to the river. He would immerse himself, and ask forgiveness. Thus, immersion, baptism, began. It helps me to understand my faith. It helps me to understand Jesus.

But, I will argue until I’m blue in the face, to point out, Jesus did not invent something new. He came to fulfill something that already was. And, to clear up all the ADDED TRADITIONS. I do believe our churches, OUR CHURCHES, ALL OF THEM, have added traditions that have no place in God’s Kingdom. My church, your church, the protestant church, catholic church, mormon church, whatever. It’s specifically what He came teaching against.

I wonder what traditions Paul was talking about in 2 thesolonians 2:15 when he asked us to stand firm and hold to tradition? Wasn’t the Bible tradition for a great many years (until it was compiled)

 

[Thal59]

elle:

Well, actually I was looking for some guys I had a conversation with earlier, BUT,

1. Baptism - didn’t start with Jesus. Actually a Jewish tradition, mikveh. Started with Adam.
2. Communion - didn’t start with Jesus. Actually just confirming a previous tradition, Passover.
3. Marriage - This didn’t start with Jesus, obviously.
4. Penance - If you mean asking forgiveness, obviously started with Adam.
5. Blessing the sick - a maybe. I’ll have to dig more on that one.
6. Confirmation and Holy Orders - no comprende.

So, again, sorry, I’m not catholic. little c. I was invited here for this conversation. I am trying to follow your board rules, and be polite, but I of the five listed above, I don’t see anything NEW. Things NEW at the time of Christ. New traditions He started (or during His time.)

Your difficulty, friend, is trying to separate between new and old. By fulfilling the OT, Jesus brought the “old” traditions into a “new” and superior form. He did not create new, disjointed, traditions or sacraments.

1. Baptism: Yes, a varient of the Mikvah, but also forshadowed by the passing of the children of Israel through the Red Sea. The difference is that the Mikvah is repeated many times in the first century Jew’s life, Baptism but once.

1. Communion - didn’t start with Jesus. Actually just confirming a previous tradition, Passover. <<

Not at all simply confirming. Through the last supper to His crucifixion, Jesus raised the “Todah” sacrifice to a sacrament by becoming the Pascal lamb. (Would take too long to explain here.)

1. Marriage didn’t have to “start” with Jesus to become sacred to the Christian. Jesus didn’t start marriage, but He did stop the errent precepts of Deuteronomy regarding divorce. (I am sure it will please you to know that in the USA, Catholics have the lowest divorce rate followed by Lutherans… Bible-belt Baptists have the highest rate of divorce.)
2. Penance. “Receive ye the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven them, whose sins you retain, they are retained.”
3. Blessing the sick. (See St. James, last chapter.)

1. Confirmation and Holy Orders - no comprende.<<

If you know of the Mikvah, you surely should be able to see the similarity between cirumcision and Bar-Mitzvah, and Baptism and Confirmation. As far as Holy Orders is concerned, its called the priesthood. Start in Genesis and stop in Revelations. You should run across a lot of priests, callings, and ordinations.

If you have an open mind, you will learn much. If not, you will “no comprende” till doomsday.

Thal59

 

[rwoehmke]

elle:

So, see, my point with the guys, the guys who invited me here, but I don’t see now, was Jesus was so totally Jewish. I don’t think He made a lot of new things up. I think the Jews had screwed up the instructions the Father gave them, and He was coming to restore them to the proper order. Like handwashing, a Jewish tradition. They said it was a LAW, because it was such a long-standing tradition. He calls it their law, not His Law. See what I mean? So, my point was, he didn’t come to invent a bunch of new traditions, just to steer everybody back to the BASICS of what was given to the children of Israel in the wilderness. To die for us, and forgive our sins, yes, but more. To restore us back to the BASICS of what was taught. My point was, He did not come adding a bunch of NEW stuff. He specifically said He did not come to do away with the law.
In fact, the Jews had added several traditions, during that time. He did not condone or participate in those traditions.

In a certain sense you are correct. Adam and Eve were God’s first children, but they screwed it up and lost paradise for themselves and their future progeny. The Father’s son took on flesh and was born of Mary. Paul calls Jesus the new Adam and his Mother the new Eve because the loss of paradise was restored and death, owned by Satan, was overcome. Once again God’s children were freed from Adam’s sin and were able to defeat death and enter paradise. It is said that by His Cross and Resurrection Jesus made all things new. That is what is new with Jesus. Most everything in the Church founded by Jesus is foreshadowed in some way in the Old Testament and was brought to fruition in the New. As the Word Jesus was present at creation. As the Word made flesh He is present at the start of the new creation and in fact by His death and resurrection makes it happen. .

 

[Lillith]

Great post Thal59…nice to meet you

 

[elle]

Lillith:

I wonder what traditions Paul was talking about in 2 thesolonians 2:15 when he asked us to stand firm and hold to tradition? Wasn’t the Bible tradition for a great many years (until it was compiled)

I don’t have any questions about the traditions Paul spoke of. How about, observing the feasts, shabbat, mikveh, havdeleh.

 

[elle]

rwoehmke:

. Paul calls …his Mother the new Eve .

Where’s that?

 

[Lillith]

elle:

I don’t have any questions about the traditions Paul spoke of. How about, observing the feasts, shabbat, mikveh, havdeleh.

Well…Elle…he was talking to Christians at the time, so it was none of the traditions You mentioned…

Possibly Baptism, Eucharist, Confession…

Maybe a book about the Early Church Fathers would be beneficial to you…

God Bless

 

[Thal59]

elle:

But, I will argue until I’m blue in the face, to point out, Jesus did not invent something new. He came to fulfill something that already was. And, to clear up all the ADDED TRADITIONS. I do believe our churches, OUR CHURCHES, ALL OF THEM, have added traditions that have no place in God’s Kingdom. My church, your church, the protestant church, catholic church, mormon church, whatever. It’s specifically what He came teaching against.

Let’s take a quick look at what He taught, elle.

You may want to look at John chapters 14-16 where Jesus promises to send a comforter/advocate/paraclete etc., which is the Holy Spirit. According to Jesus, the HS will call to mind all that I have taught you, teach you all things, lead you into all truth, and be with you forever. (Jesus taught this.)

Jesus does not say I will give thee a book that you may endlessly bicker over, rather, I will send to you the HS who will guide and teach you ALL truth.

But, notice John 16:12-16. Here is verse 12… “Many things yet I have to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.”

What might be unbearable to a first century Jew? The unique role of a woman in the lives of millions? (Mary) The destruction of Jerusalem? The dissolving of traditional Judaism? Rome becoming the new Holy City?

The point is that in Jesus’ own words, not everything He wishes to instruct us on is in scripture, it comes later than that. If one only has a bible, all inferred future teachings by Jesus through the HS is lost.

From these revealed teachings come new traditions that are agreeable to God because they celebrate His revealed teachings. Your only problem now, elle, is to figure out which church was founded on Peter, as Jesus taught, and which church has the HS guiding it perpetually. The traditions of this church would be valid as the HS would guide it away from any false practices.

Now, if it wasn’t for the reformation, (a man-made movement that resulted in over 30,000 man-made denominations), you might have been able to recognize this church more readily.

Thal59

 

[Thal59]

The replies to this post are coming fast and furious tonight, elle.

Maybe you should ask about one sacrament or tradition at a time.

Thal59

 

[elle]

Thal59:

Your difficulty, friend, is trying to separate between new and old. By fulfilling the OT, Jesus brought the “old” traditions into a “new” and superior form. He did not create new, disjointed, traditions or sacraments.

I have no difficulty. I do not seperate old from new. You do. Yeah, I keep Sabbath. You? Keep Passover. You?

Thal59:

1. Baptism: Yes, a varient of the Mikvah, but also forshadowed by the passing of the children of Israel through the Red Sea. The difference is that the Mikvah is repeated many times in the first century Jew’s life, Baptism but once.

Awesome! You are right! Baptism once is a tradition though. If the followers were out being mikvehed on Shavout, Pentecost, then obviously it would have been something they had done more than once. I’m cool with once, just saying, if you want to do it more than once, whatever floats your boat.

Thal59:

Passover…(Would take too long to explain here.)

I agree! I celebrate Passover! It would take me 20 pages to explain! But, yeah, I don’t think He did away with it.

Thal59:

errent precepts of Deut.

Agreed on everything you said on marriage,although YIKES, I would not want to any precepts of Deut. or any other book of the bible as errant. But, if you want to say that, be my guest.

As for circumcision, 8 days, a procedure for health reasons, and Bar Mitzvah, for 13 year old men, no I don’t see the connection. Nor do I see the connection between Baptism and Confirmation.

Saw a lot of priests in the Old Testament, but they were pretty blind and stuck in their traditions in the NT. So, yeah, I can draw a catholic connection there, no stretch.

 

[elle]

Thal59:

Let’s take a quick look at what He taught, elle.

Thal59

I’ll have to come back to this one, too much for tonight.

 

[JimG]

So you’re asking why we aren’t all still Jewish?

Well, that was one of the first controversies in the Church. Do gentile believers in Jesus have to observe the Jewish traditions or not? It was decided not. And helped along by the fact that Christians were eventually not allowed to worship anymore in Jewish synagogues.

You might want to read something by or about a Jewish convert to Catholicism, such as Rosalind Moss.

 

[elle]

Lillith:

Well…Elle…he was talking to Christians at the time, so it was none of the traditions You mentioned…

Ah, contrare! First Christians were JEWISH!! Out celebrating Shavout when Holy Spirit came.

Acts 10, I believe, specifically points to a Jewish custom called Havdalah, that they were definitely out keeping. Its a ceremony to mark the end of Sabbath.