Tragedy of Adam and Eve

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Bahman

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I was lately thinking about the story of Adam, appearance of evil, performing first sin etc.

There are various aspects of this story which challenge my mind about fairness and consistency of such a story. I also have a few questions. To understand my point we need to focus on a few elements namely:
  1. Adam and Eve were immortal before eating the fruit so they would eventually commit the act of eating considering the fact that they are human meaning that they could perform good or bad and they have to live forever in a sinful situation! This is like putting an individual in an unavoidable trap that everything is just matter of time!
  2. They were not aware of the punishment for eating the fruit. “Eat from all the trees of the Garden, but do not eat from the Tree of Knowledge at the centre of the Garden” (Genesis 2:16-17).
  3. What is the state of mind of an creation like Adam who is not exposed to any knowledge (bad and good) and has never experience consequence of his/her action (absolute ignorance or a childish mind)?
  4. How Lucifer who was the highest angel could possibly perform the act of seducing Eve? Performing a sin is against will of an angel!
  5. What was the reason and act of rebellion of Lucifer against God? Did act of rebellion occurred before or after the creation of Adam and Eve (performing sin)? How Lucifer could have access to the Garden if he/she rebelled before the creation of Adam? Was rebellion was the act seducing eve?
  6. Why fallen angels including Satan should be considered doomed if their situation was unavoidable like Adam and Eve?
 
We need to see the larger picture:

Let us put it very simply: man needs God, otherwise he remains without hope. Pope Benedict, Spe Salvi.

In this simple statement Pope Benedict sums up the whole problem: man can be dissociated and distanced from God, but he must not be; he’s dependent on God for life, for moral integrity, for his very peace and happiness. Adam thought otherwise and God’s plan for man, from the beginning, is to help us see the error in Adam’s thinking. That’s what we’re here for, having been made in a “state of journeying” towards perfection as our Catechism puts it. Here’s a quote from the section on Original Sin and the Fall of man describing man’s need to freely submit to God:

396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: “for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die.” The “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

Paragraph 398 tells us this:

In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good.**

Jesus came, when the time was ripe, to first of all re-establish faith in God, which then should lead to hope, and ultimately to* love*, which is what defines man’s full justice (and this is why the greatest commandments are what they are). Without love of God, then man cannot-he will not-submit to Him-and love must be freely chosen in order to be authentic. St Basil put it this way:

**If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children. **

So the big picture is that God’s overall purpose is to produce beings who love-who love Him as as well as their neighbor, who’ve come to learn for themselves the hard way the value of love, the value of God, so to speak. Creation is still occurring: the “tragedy” has also been known in Catholic tradition as the “Felix Culpa”, the “Blessed Fault”, that won for us so great a Redeemer.
 
Bahman said:
I was lately thinking about the story of Adam, appearance of evil, performing first sin etc.

There are various aspects of this story which challenge my mind about fairness and consistency of such a story. I also have a few questions. To understand my point we need to focus on a few elements namely:
  1. Adam and Eve were immortal before eating the fruit so they would eventually commit the act of eating considering the fact that they are human meaning that they could perform good or bad and they have to live forever in a sinful situation! This is like putting an individual in an unavoidable trap that everything is just matter of time!
**2) They were not aware of the punishment for eating the fruit. **“Eat from all the trees of the Garden, but do not eat from the Tree of Knowledge at the centre of the Garden” (Genesis 2:16-17).
  1. What is the state of mind of an creation like Adam who is not exposed to any knowledge (bad and good) and has never experience consequence of his/her action (absolute ignorance or a childish mind)?
  2. How Lucifer who was the highest angel could possibly perform the act of seducing Eve? Performing a sin is against will of an angel!
  3. What was the reason and act of rebellion of Lucifer against God? Did act of rebellion occurred before or after the creation of Adam and Eve (performing sin)? How Lucifer could have access to the Garden if he/she rebelled before the creation of Adam? Was rebellion was the act seducing eve?
  4. Why fallen angels including Satan should be considered doomed if their situation was unavoidable like Adam and Eve?
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Point 2 is false they knew the consequences of that action.

Genesis 2: 17 But from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat. For in whatever day you will eat from it, you will die a death.”

They knew the punishment for eating. This is proven in the following verse:

Genesis 3:3 Yet truly, from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of Paradise, God has instructed us that we should not eat, and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we may die.”

Point 4 Lucifer at this point had allready rebelled against God

Point 5 the fallen Angels had been driven out of Heaven…
The Garden of Eden was NOT in Heaven.
 
Pop on to the Adam and Logic forum, you may find some answers there:)
 
Bahman said:
  1. How Lucifer who was the highest angel could possibly perform the act of seducing Eve? Performing a sin is against will of an angel!
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Not so. Angels were created with the same free will as man. You’ll find excellent articles about angels and their fall here and here.
 
seagal said:
Not so. Angels were created with the same free will as man. You’ll find excellent articles about angels and their fall here and here.
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Thank you for the references. I will look at them later.

I think angels are different from human as they could not perform bad and they could only perform good. They of course have free will but only on performing good actions. There was no point on creation of human if angel could do both bad and good action.
 
seagal said:
Why do you consider that Satan’s situation was unavoidable?
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The fall of angel should have been the result of two wills that went against each other. In the case of Adam the first will was obeying/loving God and the second will was temtation to eat the fruit of tree of knowledge which eventually lead to second one. Angel also likewise have the will to obey/love God. My question is what was the second will that could go against the first will and lead to internal mind conflict and eventually rebellion!? They wouldn’t have fallen if there was none, they did rebel so what it was the second will/attribute?
 
Did god ever intend for Adam and Eve to pro create befor his fall or were they for ever meant not to? I have always been totally baffled with the Adam and Eve story!
 
feistmyster said:
Did god ever intend for Adam and Eve to pro create befor his fall or were they for ever meant not to? I have always been totally baffled with the Adam and Eve story!
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They were told to be fruitful and multiply
 
Bahman said:
Thank you for the references. I will look at them later.

I think angels are different from human as they could not perform bad and they could only perform good. They of course have free will but only on performing good actions. There was no point on creation of human if angel could do both bad and good action.
Click to expand...
God created angels with the same free will as man, including the will to do evil. Lucifer’s story shows that, because he rebelled against God.
 
Bahman said:
The fall of angel should have been the result of two wills that went against each other. In the case of Adam the first will was obeying/loving God and the second will was temtation to eat the fruit of tree of knowledge which eventually lead to second one. Angel also likewise have the will to obey/love God. My question is what was the second will that could go against the first will and lead to internal mind conflict and eventually rebellion!? They wouldn’t have fallen if there was none, they did rebel so what it was the second will/attribute?
Click to expand...
I don’t understand your concept of 2 wills against each other to disobey God. The only 2 wills involved are God and the person in question (in this case Adam).
 
seagal said:
I believe that was Noah and his family after they came out of the ark. I can’t find it in the Adam and Eve story.
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So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” Gen 1:27-28
 
Bahman said:
  1. They were not aware of the punishment for eating the fruit. “Eat from all the trees of the Garden, but do not eat from the Tree of Knowledge at the centre of the Garden” (Genesis 2:16-17).
Click to expand...
GEN 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden God said, “You must not eat it, nor touch it, under pain of death.”
GEN 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you are not to eat; for, the day you eat of that, you are doomed to die.’
 
Bahman said:
  1. Adam and Eve were immortal before eating the fruit so they would eventually commit the act of eating considering the fact that they are human meaning that they could perform good or bad and they have to live forever in a sinful situation! This is like putting an individual in an unavoidable trap that everything is just matter of time!
Click to expand...
Not necessarily true. It is theoretically possible for them to have stayed in God’s graces and never have eaten the fruit. Without the tree, however, they would not have had free will, because they could only have chosen to obey God. For free will to exist, there has to be the choice to be for or against God. Just because they were immortal does not mean it was inevitable.
Bahman said:
  1. They were not aware of the punishment for eating the fruit. “Eat from all the trees of the Garden, but do not eat from the Tree of Knowledge at the centre of the Garden” (Genesis 2:16-17).
Click to expand...
They may not have known all that was involved with the punishment, but having a relationship with God, they knew there would be repercussions for their actions (ie. a punishment).
Bahman said:
  1. What is the state of mind of an creation like Adam who is not exposed to any knowledge (bad and good) and has never experience consequence of his/her action (absolute ignorance or a childish mind)?
Click to expand...
This is something that cannot be known for certain. We could only speculate.
Bahman said:
  1. How Lucifer who was the highest angel could possibly perform the act of seducing Eve? Performing a sin is against will of an angel!
Click to expand...
If I’m correct, Lucifer fell before Adam and Eve did. And Angels have free will, the only difference is that they do not experience time like we do, so their choice to be for or against God was immediate. Those who chose God do his will.
Bahman said:
  1. What was the reason and act of rebellion of Lucifer against God? Did act of rebellion occurred before or after the creation of Adam and Eve (performing sin)? How Lucifer could have access to the Garden if he/she rebelled before the creation of Adam? Was rebellion was the act seducing eve?
Click to expand...
No, his rebellion was not seducing Eve. He wanted to be God, he wanted power and control. Essentially, it was the sin of pride.
Bahman said:
  1. Why fallen angels including Satan should be considered doomed if their situation was unavoidable like Adam and Eve?
Click to expand...
Their situation wasn’t unavoidable. They were given a choice, just like Adam and Eve. It was possible for all of them to choose God, but that didn’t happen.
 
fhansen said:
So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” Gen 1:27-28
Click to expand...
Huh, I forgot there were 2 versions of the creation in Genesis, I was looking at Chapter 2 :o
 
seagal said:
I don’t understand your concept of 2 wills against each other to disobey God. The only 2 wills involved are God and the person in question (in this case Adam).
Click to expand...
Lets have a simple example: Lets assume that the first wish of Lucifer was to obey and love God and second one something like pride that eventually lead to disobeying God and performing the following desire or wish.
 
bzkoss236 said:
No, his rebellion was not seducing Eve. He wanted to be God, he wanted power and control. Essentially, it was the sin of pride.
Click to expand...
Are you sure that pride was the reason for fall of Satan? Could you please give the reference to a verse that shows that pride was the reason?
 
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