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seagal
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Ok, your question was
We can never know for certain this side of heaven, but Tradition holds that it was the sin of envy. See articles 391 and 392 of the CCC.
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bzkoss236
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fhansen
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We don’t have two wills-we have* free* will as opposed to a pre-determined will. And this means nothing more or less than that competing desires, whether one or two or a dozen, can all vie for our attention, can all seek to sway our wills to act according to the dictates of those desires, according to the benefits they offer or promise us if we obey them. Free will is a gift-a good God has given us for His purposes. And yet it’s a gift that can be easily abused, one that can be readily used unwisely. It’s abuse causes all the problems-all the sin, which we observe in our world and in ourselves. In this life God seeks to draw us, without coercion, to use our wills wisely, unlike our ancestor Adam.
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Bahman
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Sorry, there is no link to any verse there.
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Bahman
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My main question is if our ancestor Adam and also Lucifer who was the highest angel (closest angel with very strong love and commitment to God) performed sin and fall then anybody who has free will and could perform bad and good will eventually perform a sin and fall from heaven and this problem can never be resolved since those in heaven live there until eternity (unless they fall). Basically having free will together with eternal life in heaven guarantee the occurrence of a sin which leads to fall.
My second question is that if angels have the same free will as we have and could do bad and good then what was the purpose of creation of Adam and Eve?
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bzkoss236
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Yeah, the Bible tag things seems to be broken right now.
Here are the verses:
Ezekiel 28:12-19
and
Isaiah 14:12-15
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seagal
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seagal
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You’re making the assumption that anyone who has died and is now in heaven (meaning the saints) could possibly sin in heaven and so be expelled from heaven. We have no reason at all to suppose this could or would happen.
You stated that Lucifer had a very strong commitment to and love for God. This is patently not true since he deliberately refused to obey God. By contrast the saints choose deliberately to obey him and so were welcomed by God into his heavenly kingdom.
Angels are spirits and not at all like humans except for the gift of free will. Also, angels don’t procreate and would not be able to “be fruitful and multiply” like humans can. I’m not a theologian but just possibly God wanted to create something different.
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seagal
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To the mods, there are several posts on this thread with links to the broken Bible tool. It’s causing problems loading this page. Could you please delete those posts.
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Bahman
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why not? We have in fact no reason why they shouldn’t perform any sin and be expelled from haven. They have free will as Lucifer had and all other fallen angels had.
Lucifer apparently chose to follow God for a long time as well otherwise he couldn’t get such a high place among angels. He was an example of good angle until the moment he decided to disobey God and fall with other angels.
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seagal
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Actually we have the word of Jesus Christ that we will have eternal life.
Matthew 25:44-46
Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
John 5:24
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has **eternal life **and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
John 17:1-2
When Jesus had said this, he raised his eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Give glory to your son, so that your son may glorify you, just as you gave him authority over all people, so that he may give eternal life to all you gave him.
1 John 2:25
And this is the promise that he made us:** eternal life**.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you so that you may know that you have** eternal life**, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is** eternal life** in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Nowhere does Jesus put a caveat on his promises, that we might somehow lose our place in heaven, unlike when God created Adam and told him explicitly not to eat of the tree or he would die. And before you come back with some nonsense that our eternal life could also be spent in hell, that would be an extremely cruel trick of God to play on us. He says what he means and he means what he says. Besides, Mt 25:46 distinguishes between eternal life and eternal punishment.
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Bahman
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I was just making an argument. I would be happy to see what part of my argument was wrong. My humble question from you is that could someone perform sin in heaven?
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seagal
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From the CCC
And
These passages would strongly indicate that no one could or would sin in heaven.
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fhansen
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The very reason we’re here, rather than in Eden, with more experience yet in purgatory if necessary, is to learn of the perfection of God’s will so we’ll ultimately align ourselves with His, i.e. we’ll no longer sin.
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Aloysium
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You may not understand what the concept of free will is all about.
Freedom involves living to one’s full capacity.
Sin binds us; it makes us less free.
Doing God’s will, what is right, and doing it with love is what leads to fulfillment.
With our free will, we can break the rules but there are serious negative consequences to that sort of behavior.
Following the rules is not limiting one’s freedom.
Two year olds and teenagers do not like to do what they are told.
This is not necessarily a bad thing, because behind desire may be a drive to do good in the world, but it is being sabotaged by society and/or its parental representatives.
One of the difficulties we sometimes encounter is trying to discern within ourselves whether an inclination is holy or demonic. In heaven, it will be clear.
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