Transalpine Redemptorists pose question: Why so hard to convert the Orthodox

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May all erring “shepherds” and liturgical abuses be either corrected or entirely driven out of Holy Mother Church! :crossrc:

It’s been going on for 40 years now*… it’s time for Rome to seriously put her foot down!
  • Yes, I’m sure there were abuses before Vatican II, but I’d imagine it happened much less often, given that deliberate abuses were explicitly considered to be sinful (according to the Roman Ritual). I’m sure it still is sinful to play around with the Liturgy, but I don’t think the point has been driven home as explicitly and forcefully as it was in the past.
 
The person who made that video is not truthful. He pretends that what he showed was a “pontifical mass,” apparently to deceive people into thinking that this is the norm in the Latin Catholic Church today. But those excerpts from a Latin mass were from a religious education congress held in New Mexico (IIRC).

Btw - what’s wrong with worshipping the Lord through joyous song?

Also, why doesn’t the person who made the video compare a Good Friday service from the Eastern Orthodox Church with a Good Friday service from a Latin Catholic Church? I’m willing to bet that any Novus Ordo Good Friday service from a Latin Catholic Church will be reverential. But that would probably disprove whatever it was the person was trying to demonstrate.🤷 As an Orthodox in communion with Rome, I must say that Good Friday solemnities in the Latin Catholic Church are VERY, VERY impressive. But showing such reverence would simply disprove whatever it was the person who made the video was trying to demonstrate.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
mardukm said:
The person who made that video is not truthful. He pretends that what he showed was a “pontifical mass,” apparently to deceive people into thinking that this is the norm in the Latin Catholic Church today. But those excerpts from a Latin mass were from a religious education congress held in New Mexico (IIRC).
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No. You are being untruthful. That video was a pontifical Mass (that is, celebrated by the bishop) at the Los Angeles Religious Education Conference in Anaheim, California. I’m not sure what year those clips are from, but here is a link to a video of Mass at the same conference in 2011 – it is more of the same.

recongress.org/live/live.htm
 
wsxyz said:
No. You are being untruthful. That video was a pontifical Mass (that is, celebrated by the bishop) at the Los Angeles Religious Education Conference in Anaheim, California. I’m not sure what year those clips are from, but here is a link to a video of Mass at the same conference in 2011 – it is more of the same.

recongress.org/live/live.htm
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A pontifical mass by definition is celebrated in the cathedral church. Was this Mass celebrated in the cathedral church? If not, it was not a pontifical mass, though indeed it was presided over by the bishop.

As mentioned, this was not a pontifical Mass, but a Mass for a special occasion, a religious education conference. Whatever happened there was not the norm in the Latin Catholic Church. Masses at religious education conferences are generally more charismatic than the norm. A pontifical Mass at a cathedral church is more solemn, and should be considered the norm for any diocese.

The person who made the video was not being truthful.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
At_Trent said:
Nothing,
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I’ve met traditional Catholics online who would say (sadly) that you are wrong.
now let’s talk about the dancing :cool:
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Yeah. That Dancing Deacon was a sight! I’m sure he was reprimanded after the fact. Liturgical dancing is not permitted DURING the Liturgy according to the rubrics of the Latin Catholic Church. I notice that the link given by wsxyz does not have a Dancing Deacon.😃 What occurred at the New Mexico conference (I think it was in New Mexico) was probably the only time it happened, and the deacon did it of his own accord (which was wrong).

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I can’t really describe what I’m feeling right now. Its like this odd combination of sorrow, anger, and hope for the rapture (not that I believe in it) so that I don’t have to witness such abuses of the liturgy anymore. Take me God! I’m ready!
 
While it is sad that we have been so long in a silly season regarding the liturgy, and have been suffering some far grimmer things that don’t qualify as silly, the Orthodox split from us more than a thousand years before these issues arose. So silly liturgical practices are not the reason that the Orthodox Church remains separated from us.

But the question asked was why it is so hard to convert the Orthodox. That question isn’t directed to reunification, but individual conversion. On that level I can see how current liturgical practices in the Church could be a stumbling block for individual Orthodox Christians. There is really no contest between the awe-inspiring Russian liturgy and the old Up With the People performances we get treated to on Sundays, exemplified perfectly by the Mass depicted in the video.

This has nothing to do with the Novus Ordo mass itself, mind you, just the way it has been dealt with. But the point of the video is, I think, well taken.
 
wsxyz said:
Surely you are joking. That is a Lutheran service with pita bread snacks.
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Wow if it wasn’t for those pita bread snacks it would have been hard to tell the difference between theirs and ours.😊:o
 
mardukm said:
A pontifical mass by definition is celebrated in the cathedral church.
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No, that is not true. A Pontifical Mass is a Mass celebrated by a bishop. It is independant of location.

For example the Masses said by the Pope in St. Peters are Pontifical Masses, even thought the Cathedral of Rome is St. John Lateran.

In the Extraordinary Form, there are different graduals used if the bishop is celebrating in his own Cathedral, but the rites of the Pontifical Mass are used regardless of location.
 
Credo_in_Deum said:
I’m sorry but why wouldn’t you just do the Tridentine Mass if your going to do the Novus Ordo this way? I mean if your going to do it that way you might as well just stick with this way which was the Ordinary Form at one point in time:

youtube.com/watch?v=d6S1GEh_xOw
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Well there are some differences. In the first video I offered, you hear the intercessory prayers in English. Those prayers no longer exist in the traditional Mass. In the second, the canon of the Mass is chanted aloud – also not done in the traditional Mass.

Now granted, both of those Masses were mainly in Latin but you could basically have the exact same Mass in English.

There are other differences between these Masses and an average parish Mass, of course, but remember, nowhere in either the II Vatican Council or in the Roman Missal, is there any call for the priest to face the people. Nowhere in either the II Vatican Council or in the Roman Missal is there a request to jackhammer the old high altars and replace them with tables in the middle of the Church. Nowhere in either the II Vatican Council or in the Roman Missal is there the directive to give people Holy Communion in the hand. Nowhere in either the II Vatican Council or in the Roman Missal is there a request to allow laypersons to distribute Holy Communion.

These things were done external to the new Roman Missal and in opposition to the expressed will of the Church. They were only juridically legitimized in hindsight after being practiced illegitimately for years.
 
  1. Does the Orthodox need converting? Is there anything in their beliefs that is flawed?
  2. This video makes the assumption that the Orthodox will convert to a Roman Liturgy. Even if you show a very solemn Tridentine Mass, the Orthodox will not want to convert to that. They would want to keep their own Liturgical traditions handed down by their own Church Fathers which came from the Apostles.
  3. What you have seen here in the Moscow Patriarchate is done in ever Byzantine Catholic Church every Good Friday. Its the laying down of the shroud of Christ (a cloth with an icon of the entombment of Christ). So its not like there aren’t Catholics who perform this ritual today.
 
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