Transcendental Meditation and me

[Blessed7]

Sorry Ed. Was not up on the “ban” of particular topics on this forum. Too bad. Conversation, exploration, and questioning is more than healthy. But to those who already have “all the answers” it may be viewed as disturbing and threatening.

Peace!

 

[eddadonkey]

@Blessed7 and JimR-OCDS,

I would rather be stupid as a donkey and be close-minded minded on such important topics as our salvation rather than be so open-minded that my brain falls out and my halo won’t fit

God love you!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

@Blessed7 and JimR-OCDS,

I would rather be stupid as a donkey and be close-minded minded on such important topics as our salvation rather than be so open-minded that my brain falls out and my halo won’t fit

God love you!

And when you can prove to me that resting in the presence of God, who dwells within, and loving Him is going to lose your salvation, let us know.

Centered In Christ
Jim

 

[JW55]

I have some advice–don’t listen to mere humans tell you “not to do this” or “not to do that.” How ridiculous that a so called “Catholic” would tell you to stay away from “Centering Prayer,” which was created by Father Thomas Keating, a Trappist Monk, who is indeed a Catholic. Did I mention he is also a priest? And these folks are telling you to stay away from a priest! Consider the source!

How “Catholic” of them to do so. This is nonsense.

“Be still, and know that I am God" Pslam 46:10

Be well my friend, and much peace.

You may want to do some further reading on how Father Keating developed his prayer practices and its sources before endorsing it to others. They are highly influenced largely by Buddhism. There are many other alternatives out there that may serve the OP’s concerns that are endorsed or supported by the Magisterium of the Church.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

You may want to do some further reading on how Father Keating developed his prayer practices and its sources before endorsing it to others. They are highly influenced largely by Buddhism. There are many other alternatives out there that may serve the OP’s concerns that are endorsed or supported by the Magisterium of the Church.

This actually isn’t true.

I happen to go on retreat every year at St Joseph’ Abbey in Spencer, where Fr Keating was the Abbot years ago, and talked with the Monks there about Fr Keating and the events that many falsely post on the internet.

Most of what is posted on the internet about what took place is false.

What is true is, after Pope Paul VI asked Catholic Spiritual Leaders like the Benedictines and Cistercians, to begin dialog with leaders of Eastern Religions in order to find out what was drawing young Catholics away from the Church and into Eastern Religious spirituality, Fr Keating and others Catholic religious, held a week-end summit at the Abbey to learn from the Eastern masters, what their method of meditation was all about. As soon as the Catholic Monks learned what Eastern meditation was all about, they immediately knew that the Catholic Church already had a rich tradition that was similar in contemplative prayer.

Abba Isaac, St. John Cassian and St. John of the Cross, already taught a method of Christian meditation in contemplative prayer, using Lectio Divina. Problem was, it was primarily taught just in Monasteries and Convents.

So, they sought a way of teaching it to lay people, and they merely called it Quiet Prayer.

Everything came from there and the rest is history.

Jim

 

[Blessed7]

Thank you Jim for such clear clarification and bringing to light the nutty internet “gossip” which people swallow blindly as “fact.”

JW55,

I clearly understand the influences and history. I have been studying and experiencing religions and spiritual paths all of my adult life, both academically, and personally, and yes, I too, am Catholic. I seek understanding among various paths, and have been able to see the Holy Spirit working at the core of all of them. I understand you may not be open to aspects of Ecumenicism, and respect that.

Peace,

B.

 

[eddadonkey]

And when you can prove to me that resting in the presence of God, who dwells within, and loving Him is going to lose your salvation, let us know.

Centered In Christ
Jim

Of course all of those are very necessary for our salvation, JimR. I am not convinced, however, that centering prayer is a safe way of doing that. Also, a person and organization advocating such soundly Catholic practices as lectio divina and welcoming prayer does not mean they are right in advocating centering prayer.

On one note, its is very interesting to read from the Contemplative Outreach website itself this:

Unlike Centering Prayer, Lectio Divina is a participatory, active practice that uses thoughts, images and insights to enter into a conversation with God.

(emphasis mine)

And THAT is the main difference between centering prayer and all the Catholic practices.

You might say that contemplative prayer is a practice done by Catholics for generations that is similar to centering prayer. Well, no: you do not do contemplative prayer, you receive it. It is a gift from God. Again, the Contemplative Outreach website itself in the page about centering prayer acknowledges this:

Centering Prayer is a method of silent prayer that prepares us to receive** the gift of contemplative prayer,** prayer in which we experience God’s presence within us, closer than breathing, closer than thinking, closer than consciousness itself.

(emphasis mine)

And the thing is, the Catholic Church and her saints have never advocated an active preparation for contemplative prayer by plunging into it right away. Oh no. You can only go into contemplative prayer after intense mortification, when you are pure and detached from the world already. As the Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) said,

Some physical exercises automatically produce a feeling of quiet and relaxation, pleasing sensations, perhaps even phenomena of light and warmth, which resemble spiritual well-being. To take such feelings for the authentic consolations of the Holy Spirit would be a totally erroneous way of conceiving the spiritual life. Giving them a symbolic significance typical of the mystical experience, when the moral condition of the person does not correspond to such experience, would represent a kind of mental schizophrenia which could also lead to psychic disturbance and, at times, to moral deviations.

(Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on Some Aspects of Meditation, emphasis mine)

continued next post…

 

[eddadonkey]

The final nail on centering prayer for me comes actually from that work from the Middle Ages most associated with it, The Cloud of Unknowing. The makers of centering prayer attribute this book as one of their main inspirations. For example,the Contemplative Outreach website site lists Fr William Meninger as one of the founders of the technique, and his website recounts that it is this book itself that led him to start teaching “contemplative prayer” in the form of centering prayer, after which Fr. Keating joined as well.

There is a small problem with The Cloud of Unknowing with respect to centering prayer, and they are two chapters in the book:

HERE BEGINNETH THE SEVEN AND TWENTIETH CHAPTER
Who should work in the gracious work of this book.

FIRST and foremost, I will tell thee who should work in this work, and when, and by what means: and what discretion thou shalt have in it. If thou asketh me who shall work thus, I answer thee—all that have forsaken the world in a true will, and thereto that give them not to active life, but to that life that is called contemplative life. All those should work in this grace and in this work, whatsoever that they be; whether they have been accustomed sinners or none.

HERE BEGINNETH THE EIGHT AND TWENTIETH CHAPTER
*
That a man should not presume to work in this work before the time that he be lawfully cleansed in conscience of all his special deeds of sin.*
BUT if thou asketh me when they should work in this work, then I answer thee and I say: that not ere they have cleansed their conscience of all their special deeds of sin done before, after the common ordinance of Holy Church.…

SO the anonymous author of this work tells us that this work is not only for a select group of people, the contemplatives or monks and nuns (which actually shows Fr. Meninger to be either ignorant or a liar, or both, since he said the book “was intended primarily for laymen rather than for priests and monks”) but also prohibits using the “work in this book” until one has made himself “cleansed in conscience of all his special deeds of sin” “after the common ordinance of Holy Church.”

Do you people understand? If centering prayer is authentic, if it really is an authentic preparation for contemplative prayer, then it can only be done after intense preparation morally and spiritually as prescribed by the Catholic Church. Authentic teachers of the spiritual life (especially the late Fr. Thomas Green, SJ) indeed say this preparation before contemplative prayer could be YEARS or even DECADES in length. Indeed, read the lives of the saints and see how long they have lived before they could experience contemplative prayer.

So no, as I had said before, I will stay as ignorant and stupid as a donkey about centering prayer, for careful studying of the words of its proponents themselves and studying their sources, held in contrast to the Sacred Tradition of Catholic Church and her saints, shows the technique to be quite lacking. Sorry.

 

[eddadonkey]

Thank you Jim for such clear clarification and bringing to light the nutty internet “gossip” which people swallow blindly as “fact.”

Unfortunately, sometimes “gossip” is based on an inkling of truth…please read my posts above and give us you thoughts.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

eddadonkey

Of course all of those are very necessary for our salvation, JimR. I am not convinced, however, that centering prayer is a safe way of doing that. Also, a person and organization advocating such soundly Catholic practices as lectio divina and welcoming prayer does not mean they are right in advocating centering prayer.

On one note, its is very interesting to read from the Contemplative Outreach website itself this:

Unlike Centering Prayer, Lectio Divina is a participatory, active practice that uses thoughts, images and insights to enter into a conversation with God.
​

And THAT is the main difference between centering prayer and all the Catholic practices.

Actually, contemplative prayer as taught by the saints, teach that we are to detach from images created in our mind, because they are our creation, not God’s.

We are to go to God as he is, and allow Him to reveal his true self to us.

I won’t go further to explain how you’re misinformed, because the topic is banned at this site.

I’ll only say that contemplative prayer, is any method that opens us up to contemplation which comes solely from God. What we recieve during Contemplative Prayer like CP, is from God working in us, not from the method of prayer itself.

Repeating the name of “Jesus” or some other sacred word while focusing on His presence within, is very much a tradition of the Catholic Church and the Eastern Church as well. In fact, the East has taught contemplative prayer among the laity far better than the Catholic Church has.

Repeating the “Jesus prayer,” while meditating on His presence has been part of the Eastern Church for centuries.

I’m happy that over 35 years ago, I was taught Contemplative Prayer, and it’s sad there is so much misunderstanding about it here in CA and the Catholic Church as well.

Jim​

 

[JW55]

I think anyone who pursues a spiritual path in meditation needs to be careful who is at the “center”. Contemplation should not be an emptying of the mind as taught in many eastern (Buddhist-type) practices, but about bringing God into your heart.

To address an earlier response, about being ecumenical, I have through the years pursued various forms of meditation, and consider myself fairly well-read and having a fair understanding of the core teaching of Buddhism. I have also read many of the books by Father Keating. I am familiar with John Mann. I have also read writings of John Cassian. I have read St. John of the Cross,and St. Therese of Avila. I have studied as much as I can about the Jesus Prayer and Lectio Divina. I say this only to clarify that I am not naive as to meditation and practices outside the Catholic Church. Prior to joining the Catholic Church many years ago I learned as much as I could about the teachings of other faiths.

In the Orthodox Church, the Jesus Prayer is a highly esteemed prayer and means of contemplation. Even though the Jesus Prayer is an accepted practice, the church encourages those who practice it to be under the guidance of a spiritual father. I find this to be be good advice. We should always be assured that we are within the sideboards of the teachings of our faith.

. Sometimes we learn by hearing and through the experience of others. Sometimes we have to experience things ourselves. Good luck to you whatever your chosen path. I would encourage to read the teachings Father Dubay on contemplation and there is also a lot of good information on many of the Eastern Orthodox sites about the Jesus Prayer. if you haven’t done so already I hope you will look into the Jesus Prayer and Lectio Divina. I have found them to be a rewarding alternative. In regard to other forms of meditation and contemplation, my advise would be to be careful. God bless.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

JW55

I don’t have any disagreement with what you posted, except that it seems that you have a misunderstanding of what CP actually is.

Without trying to oppose the ban on CP at this site, I must add this, in order to better inform people.

think anyone who pursues a spiritual path in meditation needs to be careful who is at the “center”. Contemplation should not be an emptying of the mind as taught in many eastern (Buddhist-type) practices, but about bringing God into your heart.

God is at the “center,” as St. John of the Cros says;

O living flame of love
that tenderly wounds my soul
in its deepest center! Since
now you are not oppressive,
now consummate! if it be your will:
tear through the veil of this sweet encounter!

1. When the soul asserts that the flame of love wounds it in its deepest center, it means that insofar as this flame reaches its substance, power, and strength, the Holy Spirit assails and wounds it. It does not make such an assertion to indicate that this wounding is as essential and integral as in the beatific vision of the next life. Even though a soul attains to as lofty a state of perfection in this mortal life as that which we are discussing, it neither can nor does reach the perfect state of glory, although perhaps in a passing way God might grant it some similar favor. Yet the soul says this in order to manifest the fullness and abundance of delight and glory it feels in this kind of communication from the Holy Spirit. This delight is so much more intense and tender the stronger and more substantially the soul is transformed and concentrated in God. Since this center is the furthest attainable in the present life - although not as perfectly attainable as in the next - the soul refers to it as the deepest center.

Even though the soul can perhaps possess in this life a habit of charity as perfect as in the next, yet the operation and fruition of charity in this life will not be so perfect, even though the operation and fruition of love increase to such a degree in this state that there is great resemblance to the beatific state. The similarity is such that the soul dares to affirm only what it would dare affirm about the next life, that is: in the deepest **center **of my soul.
karmel.at/ics/john/fl_3.html

You can read the entire Canticle and St John’s commentary at the link provided.

Do a search on the word, “Center,” and see how often John uses it.

In fact, this is where the term, “Centering” prayer came from. It was during a week-end retreat for religious, which Fr Keating gave on what was then called, “Quiet Prayer,” which focused on St. John of the Cross’s canticle, that the participants gave the name, “Centering Prayer.”

Anyway, it’s all I’ll say further on the subject, for it is banned at this web site.

PM me if you want more info.

God called me to this method of prayer over 35 years ago.

Centered In Christ Jesus
Jim

 

[maryh10000]

OK, several people have already noted that the kind of CP that Father Keating teaches deviates from Catholicism at the point where one attempts to empty the mind of all thoughts.

You keep saying we’re taking Father Keating out of context. So can you answer this question?

Does Centering Prayer, as taught by Father Keating, teach that you want to get to the point where you bypass all thoughts and feelings? In other words, the point where there are no thoughts at all?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Does Centering Prayer, as taught by Father Keating, teach that you want to get to the point where you bypass all thoughts and feelings? In other words, the point where there are no thoughts at all?

No, Fr Keating never teaches this and in fact says, that such a notion of having no thoughts at all is impossible.

Jim

 

[eddadonkey]

JW55

I don’t have any disagreement with what you posted, except that it seems that you have a misunderstanding of what CP actually is.

Without trying to oppose the ban on CP at this site, I must add this, in order to better inform people.

God is at the “center,” as St. John of the Cros says;

You can read the entire Canticle and St John’s commentary at the link provided.

Do a search on the word, “Center,” and see how often John uses it.

In fact, this is where the term, “Centering” prayer came from. It was during a week-end retreat for religious, which Fr Keating gave on what was then called, “Quiet Prayer,” which focused on St. John of the Cross’s canticle, that the participants gave the name, “Centering Prayer.”

Anyway, it’s all I’ll say further on the subject, for it is banned at this web site.

PM me if you want more info.

God called me to this method of prayer over 35 years ago.

Centered In Christ Jesus
Jim

I am, and again, I can see that “Centering Prayer” is NOT the contemplative prayer being described by St. John of the Cross.

First of all, in his commentaries, it is clear that St. John was describing a process of prayer. The first stanzas describe the end result of contemplative prayer, in which you arrive at the center of your soul, where the Kingdom of God resides (Luke 17:21, Douay-Rheims). However, before it reaches that, the soul undergoes a severe purgation of the senses and the flesh:

1. Before the divine fire is introduced into the substance of the soul and united with it through perfect and complete purgation and purity, its flame, which is the Holy Spirit, wounds the soul by destroying and consuming the imperfections of its bad habits.

(karmel.at/ics/john/fl_3.html, emphases mine)

All inclinations to sinning must be destroyed before true contemplative prayer can be given by God. And this purgation is very distressing, so much so that

1. Not many people undergo so strong a purgation, only those whom God wishes to elevate to the highest degree of union. For he prepares individuals by a purification more or less severe in accordance with the degree to which he wishes to raise them, and also according to their impurity and imperfection.

(karmel.at/ics/john/fl_3.html, emphasis mine)

Again, as the anonymous author of “The Cloud of Unknowing” said, St. John of the Cross asserts that true contemplative prayer is not for everyone; you must be chosen to be given it, and not all people are.

On the other hand, I have never heard centering prayer being preached to be distressing at first (even for years for some), nor is it prescribed along with a strict ascetical program, which is done for those following the Carmelite Way and for the Eastern Catholics who practice meditation on the Jesus Prayer, called Hesychasm (see here: Jesus Prayer vs. Centering Prayer). Nor is centering prayer only prescribed for some; indeed, centering prayer is being preached to be for all people.

SO, again, St. John of the Cross, like the author of “Cloud of Unknowing”, shows that centering prayer is not authentically Catholic.

Anything else to show us, Jim?

God love you.

 

[eddadonkey]

Besides, you do not need contemplative prayer to be a saint. As St. Therese of Avila said:

I know a very old woman, leading a most excellent life—I wish mine were like hers—a penitent and a great servant of God, who for many years has been spending hours and hours in vocal prayer, but from mental prayer can get no help at all; the most she can do is to dwell upon each of her vocal prayers as she says them. There are a great many other people just like this; if they are humble, they will not, I think, be any the worse off in the end, but very much in the same state as those who enjoy numerous consolations

St. Teresa of Avila, Way of Perfection, chap. 17, trans. and ed. E. Allison Peers (Garden City, N. Y.: Doubleday [Image Books], 1964), p. 125 (emphasis mine)

 

[JimR-OCDS]

eddadonkey

I am, and again, I can see that “Centering Prayer” is NOT the contemplative prayer being described by St. John of the Cross.

As a Discalced Carmenlite, I have experience with John of the Cross and CP. They are the same.

First of all, in his commentaries, it is clear that St. John was describing a process of prayer.

Prayer is a processs which opens us up to contemplation, if we are drawn to it by God.

The first stanzas describe the end result of contemplative prayer, in which you arrive at the center of your soul, where the Kingdom of God resides (Luke 17:21, Douay-Rheims). However, before it reaches that, the soul undergoes a severe purgation of the senses and the flesh:

You’re talking about infused contemplation, which one doesn’t reach on their own, but through the transforming grace of God.

CP, nor any form of prayer will bring you to infused contemplation. This is an act of God within the soul and it’s not the method, but God who causes the action to take place.

The method of contemplative prayer we use, is merely to open us up to God. CP merely quiets the senses in order to be more focused on the intention of our will, that being in the presence of God.

All inclinations to sinning must be destroyed before true contemplative prayer can be given by God. And this purgation is very distressing, so much so that

Again, you’re talking about infused contemplation, not contemplative prayer itself. St. Teresa taught contemplative prayer to all her sisters, but also taught that not everyone reaches perfect union in this life.

However, contemplative prayer opens us up to having a deeper relation ship with God. If your comfortable with dicursive prayer, stay there. However, St Teresa says that quiet mental prayer, which is contemplative prayer, is the deepest form of prayer a soul can do, for it is in the depth of our being that God speaks to us best.

Again, as the anonymous author of “The Cloud of Unknowing” said, St. John of the Cross asserts that true contemplative prayer is not for everyone; you must be chosen to be given it, and not all people are.

That’s right, but it seems that those of use who are chosen, get lots a flack about it.

On the other hand, I have never heard centering prayer being preached to be distressing at first (even for years for some), nor is it prescribed along with a strict ascetical program, which is done for those following the Carmelite Way and for the Eastern Catholics who practice meditation on the Jesus Prayer, called Hesychasm (see here: Jesus Prayer vs. Centering Prayer). Nor is centering prayer only prescribed for some; indeed, centering prayer is being preached to be for all people.

Prayer does not need to be distressing as your describing. I believe you’re confusing the Dark Night of the Soul, with prayer. There are different.

Also, CP being contemplative prayer, is taught to people who are open to it. Not everyone finds CP to be a good form of prayer for them and at the same time, not many find the writings of St. Teresa or St John of the Cross to make much sense either.

SO, again, St. John of the Cross, like the author of “Cloud of Unknowing”, shows that centering prayer is not authentically Catholic.

Actually they do, the problem you’re having is that you have a distorted understanding of just what Centering Prayer actually is.

Here, you can read about the origins of CP and what it’s actually about here;
kyrie.com/cp/index.htm

Jim

 

[the_phoenix]

Has the CAF ban on discussing Centering Prayer been lifted?

Please see the following thread, “NOTE: NO Private revelation, NO Centering prayer,” posted by moderator Klara Collins for reference:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=434589

To quote from the above link:

"The topic of centering prayer has become a disruption in the forums and is no longer permitted.

Any questions about centering prayer should be directed to our apologists. Before contacting them, please review these answers, articles, and programs from Catholic Answers about centering prayer:

What does the Pope think about centering prayer?
Is seeking contemplative prayer wrong?
Is Lectio Divina considered Centering Prayer?
Can Catholics engage in Centering Prayer?
Is Centering Prayer an authentic spirituality?
Is Centering Prayer Catholic meditation?

The Danger of Centering Prayer (This Rock: November 1997)
Letters in response (This Rock: February 1998)

What’s Wrong with Centering Prayer? by Clare Merkle
(Catholic Answers Live: Nov 6, 2006)
Learn to Discern: Christian or New Age? by Susan Brinkmann
(Catholic Answers Live: Oct 29, 2007)

Thanks for your cooperation!
Klara "

 

[eddadonkey]

Has the CAF ban on discussing Centering Prayer been lifted?

Please see the following thread, “NOTE: NO Private revelation, NO Centering prayer,” posted by moderator Klara Collins for reference:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=434589

To quote from the above link:

"The topic of centering prayer has become a disruption in the forums and is no longer permitted.

Any questions about centering prayer should be directed to our apologists. Before contacting them, please review these answers, articles, and programs from Catholic Answers about centering prayer:

What does the Pope think about centering prayer?
Is seeking contemplative prayer wrong?
Is Lectio Divina considered Centering Prayer?
Can Catholics engage in Centering Prayer?
Is Centering Prayer an authentic spirituality?
Is Centering Prayer Catholic meditation?

The Danger of Centering Prayer (This Rock: November 1997)
Letters in response (This Rock: February 1998)

What’s Wrong with Centering Prayer? by Clare Merkle
(Catholic Answers Live: Nov 6, 2006)
Learn to Discern: Christian or New Age? by Susan Brinkmann
(Catholic Answers Live: Oct 29, 2007)

Thanks for your cooperation!
Klara "

Both of us do know of the ban However, both Jim and I have been trying to keep the discussion civil and limited, and I would say both of us are quite mature (more or less, I think mine is the less ) in our faith, of which the lack of both is the problem with the old discussions. I think that is the reason we are still able to discuss for this long, while other threads like this one recently was closed.

But anyways, Jim, I think I will have to drop from the discussion until I read the last link you have given me, and until I read more about contemplative prayer from sources that do not lump centering prayer with it (which is the problem more and more today, I find).

God love you.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Both of us do know of the ban However, both Jim and I have been trying to keep the discussion civil and limited, and I would say both of us are quite mature (more or less, I think mine is the less ) in our faith, of which the lack of both is the problem with the old discussions. I think that is the reason we are still able to discuss for this long, while other threads like this one recently was closed.

But anyways, Jim, I think I will have to drop from the discussion until I read the last link you have given me, and until I read more about contemplative prayer from sources that do not lump centering prayer with it (which is the problem more and more today, I find).

God love you.

Ditto for me too

One last FYI, St. John’s Living Flame of Love, wasn’t written for those who have reached the level of infused contemplation.

It was actually written to a lay women who had corresponded with St John, and had asked him to teach her how to pray.

As usual, St. John used poetry to accomplish the task.

In other words, the teaching in the poem, is for anyone who wants to learn how to pray interiorly.

Centered In Christ Jesus
Jim