Transfering Rites to Pursue Vocation as a Married Priest

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I agree; however, one shouldn’t have to consider leaving one Church for another to pursue a vocation. That is the real issue.

Ultimately I submit to Mother Church as a faithful son, but it still irks me to no end. I do, however, understand that in order to maintain unity among the Churches that this will just have to be one of those fuzzy areas we must all tolerate so that “they may be one.”

I hope I haven’t insulted my eastern family in any way by posting this here. If so, I humbly apologize. I’m just jealous

This I think is where we differ. I do not believe that God calls people to a place that they can not go. I also believe that God works through His Church.

So with these to thoughts in mind, I do not believe that God calls Latin Catholics who are married to the priesthood. Now some may feel a call but feeling a call and having an actual call are not the same thing.

Otherwise how do we explain all the women who say that they feel called to be priests?

 

[mlouise007]

Glory to Jesus Christ!
A-

I just wanted to thank everyone here for tolerating this irked Latin. Ever since my return to the Church two years ago I have been spending a lot of time discerning my place in the scheme of things on this side of heaven. The priesthood was a dream that I did look into in my youth. I went to a formation house right out of high school, but the dream ended and my faith life train-wrecked when I left the Church a semester after entering formation.

I’m glad others here have been helpful to you on this journey.

When you say you came home again two year ago, did you go through a process, such as a group for Catholics returning to the Church, or meet over time with a priest? (Like other groups in the Church these can be extremely helpful, somewhat helpful, pretty useless etc., but ideally are a place to begin to work through the many issues that led one out of the Church and what now calls one back.) Recovering from a “train-wrecked” faith life is like recovering from a train wreck-- best done with the help of professional healers.

The one thing different now is that I’m married…

The Church considers marriage a great Vocation, the foundation of the Domestic Church.

At this time I am not aware of an inclination to change rites. I love the Latin rite. I love the Latin (traditional) spirituality. I love Latin devotions. But can anyone understand my confusion?

Thanks be to God for how richly you are fed in your rite! It sounds like you need help in mining the riches for ministry in that tradition. I’m sorry for your frustration but consider it that old “grist for the mill”, as we are often consoled in such times of frustration, and look for a qualified person to guide you one-on-one in addition to support here. It sounds like you are in need of a good spiritual father/director to assist with the continued healing from the train wreck and also to explore issues of calling.

You might look with a spiritual director at something like third orders for the various religious orders which have these, or something like Opus Dei.

You didn’t say what you felt called to in the priesthood. The priesthood is a vast ministry. If you haven’t taken an inventory of gifts/charisms that is one place to begin to understand more fully your call. Such an inventory looks not just at what ministry you like to do but also of perhaps more importance where have your ministries in the Church and in the world been affirmed, and where have they not been. A qualified spiritual director should be familiar with these inventories and how to use them well.

Thanks for letting my say my peace. I will spend more time in prayer. Perhaps I will visit the Ruthenian parish here in Houston, too, and see if something clicks.

Definitely do go to St. John Chrysostom in Houston. I see they have links to some of my favorite video info. including “Word From the Wise: Who are Eastern Catholics? Part 1”. I love all the interviews on Word From the Wise. (Father Loya just had Fr. Abbot Nicholas on his radio program yesterday. Abbot Nicholas is one of those interviewed on WFtheW.)

You can of course satisfy your “Sunday obligation” at the St. John Ruthenian, but also because the ECCs celebrate more richly most feast days than we Roman rite folks tend to do, and celebrate them on the week day when they occur on one, you have that extra opportunity to more richly celebrate our liturgical year by participating in these wonderful feast days. You probably could have gotten your car or your bike blessed on Monday if you’d gone over for Divine Liturgy on the Feast of St.Elijah the Prophet. In any case the feast of the Transfiguration of Our Lord is coming up Aug. 6. If you decide to go I encourage you to let the deacon know you are coming. I’m sure they’ll make you feel very welcome.

Vatican II and John Paul II of blessed memory have called us Roman rite Catholics to “be fully acquainted with this treasure … which is preserved and grows in the life of the Churches of the East…” " and so you should be, not so you can switch rites and get ordained (it seems like you’ve been dissuaded here already of that notion) but to enrich you life in Christ.

Father Loya did an excellent program June 11 about celibacy and the priesthood on his A Body of Truth program, where he teaches on Theology of the Body. The occasion of the teaching was the change of churches and marriage of Fr. Alberto Cutie. Fr. Loya is a celibate ECC priest, from a long line of married priests.

God’s will be done

Amen. The one prayer that we know will always be answered!

God be with you.
-Mary Louise

 

[GodIsGracious]

Definitely do go to St. John Chrysostom in Houston. I see they have links

[deletia]

You can of course satisfy your “Sunday obligation” at the St. John Ruthenian,

If the OP attends St. John Chrysostom, say hello, if you can, to Fr. Elias.

We have a small Byzantine Ruthenian Parish here that Fr. Elias has come up for Divine Liturgy. Infact, he blessed some crucifixes for us.

I attend this church here in Dallas on occasion and it is a beautiful church. Divine Liturgy is definitely a great way to have a Catholic worship that is different from Latin Rite Mass.

I strongly suggest the OP go to a Byznantine Church to decide if Eastern Rite is for him. Divine Liturgy is very different from Mass. (But very lovely!)

I also think that the OP should consider being a deacon. My beau’s great grand uncle has been a deacon in the Byzantine church for many years and is married. (To a Latin Rite girl. )

 

[kevstar31]

My :twocents: is that you consider the “Permanent” Diaconate in the Latin Church. (I put “permanent” in quotes because it’s not necessarily permanent: the discipline in the Latin Church could (at least in theory) change tomorrow, in which case “permanent” could become “transitional” and you’d be 3/4 of the way home already.) In any case, though, the Diaconate is a Major Order and imparts its indelible mark.

And BTW, if you are so inclined, insist on learning the EF. A deacon is a deacon, and there’s no reason that a “permanent” deacon who wants to do so cannot fulfill the assigned role in the EF.

EF?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

EF?

EF is shorthand for the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, the old Latin Mass.

 

[StillWondering]

EF is shorthand for the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, the old Latin Mass.

Is Divine Liturgy similar to Extraordinary Form? I am curious about Divine Liturgy and have some questions. Is DL the same in all EC communities in the same way as NO is meant to be the same in all RC communities?

 

[Aramis]

Is Divine Liturgy similar to Extraordinary Form? I am curious about Divine Liturgy and have some questions. Is DL the same in all EC communities in the same way as NO is meant to be the same in all RC communities?

No. Each church sui iuris has one or more forms of their own liturgy.

The Ruthenian Catholic Church has 2 forms: Divine Liturgy of St John and Divine Liturgy of St Basil.

The Ukrainian church also uses the DL of St John and the DL of St. Basil, but their use is different, slightly.

The Melkites use the DL of St John, the DL of St Basil, but also the DL of St. James. And for St John’s and St Basil’s, again there are differences from the other churches…

The Maronites have their “mass” (Quorbono), with several consecrations that may be fit in.
The Chaldeans have their “mass”, different from the Maronites, but similar, again, with several options for which consecration is used.

 

[StillWondering]

No. Each church sui iuris has one or more forms of their own liturgy.

The Ruthenian Catholic Church has 2 forms: Divine Liturgy of St John and Divine Liturgy of St Basil.

The Ukrainian church also uses the DL of St John and the DL of St. Basil, but their use is different, slightly.

The Melkites use the DL of St John, the DL of St Basil, but also the DL of St. James. And for St John’s and St Basil’s, again there are differences from the other churches…

The Maronites have their “mass” (Quorbono), with several consecrations that may be fit in.
The Chaldeans have their “mass”, different from the Maronites, but similar, again, with several options for which consecration is used.

Is there a place I can watch these liturgies that I can be sure are authentic besides at a church since I do not know of any nearby EC churches. I’m in SF, CA btw if you happen to know any.

 

[mlouise007]

StillWondering-

Is there a place I can watch these liturgies that I can be sure are authentic besides at a church since I do not know of any nearby EC churches. I’m in SF, CA btw if you happen to know any.

Immaculate Conception Ukrainian Catholic Church in SF.
Our Lady of Fatima Byzantine Catholic Church (Russian) in SF.
Syro Malabar Mission Of San Francisco in SF
Ge’ez Berkeley, Santa Rosa, Santa Clara.
Our Lady of Lebanon Maronite Catholic Church in Millbrae
St. Volodymyr Ukrainian Catholic Mission in Santa Clara.
St Elias Melkite-Greek Catholic Church in San Jose.
Saint Basil the Great Byzantine Catholic Church (Ruthenian) in Los Gatos.
St. Mary Assyrian Chaldean Catholic Church in Campbell.

PM me. I’m in the East Bay.

-Mary Louise

 

[mlouise007]

StillWondering-

Immaculate Conception Ukrainian Catholic Church in SF.
Our Lady of Fatima Byzantine Catholic Church (Russian) in SF.
Syro Malabar Mission Of San Francisco in SF
Ge’ez Berkeley, Santa Rosa, Santa Clara.
Our Lady of Lebanon Maronite Catholic Church in Millbrae
St. Volodymyr Ukrainian Catholic Mission in Santa Clara.
St Elias Melkite-Greek Catholic Church in San Jose.
Saint Basil the Great Byzantine Catholic Church (Ruthenian) in Los Gatos.
St. Mary Assyrian Chaldean Catholic Church in Campbell.

PM me. I’m in the East Bay.
-Mary Louise

P.S. Transfiguration of Our Lord, Venerable Herman of Alaska, Dormition of the Most-Holy Theotokos, and Beheading of St. John the Baptist are coming up which are great times to come participate in the Festal Vigil, Vespers, and Divine Liturgy.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Is there a place I can watch these liturgies that I can be sure are authentic besides at a church since I do not know of any nearby EC churches. I’m in SF, CA btw if you happen to know any.

If this would interest you, there are lots of Orthodox churches in SF. In fact, two Orthodox Saints have once been bishops of San Francisco: Patriarch St. Tikhon of Moscow and St. John the Wonderworker of San Francisco (whose holy relic is in the Cathedral of the Joy of All Who Sorrow on Geary).

You also asked this:

Is Divine Liturgy similar to Extraordinary Form?

Beware of something:

Don’t attend an Eastern Catholic Liturgy of any sui juris church or liturgical family expecting to find there the last remnants of pre-V2 1950’s style American Latin Catholicism. If you do, you’ll be VERY disappointed.

 

[StillWondering]

Don’t attend an Eastern Catholic Liturgy of any sui juris church or liturgical family expecting to find there the last remnants of pre-V2 1950’s style American Latin Catholicism. If you do, you’ll be VERY disappointed.

Wait wait, what do you mean? I know what a sui juris church is now, but what is a liturgical family? And wouldn’t they not be Latin masses automatically since they are Eastern Catholic? And when you mentioned Othrodox, do you mean Eastern Orthodox, the group that is similar to the Eastern Catholic but is somehow in schism with the Roman Catholic Church. (Serious, I’m still so confused how things are different. I’m reading but there is a lot of catching up to do.)

 

[StillWondering]

StillWondering-

Immaculate Conception Ukrainian Catholic Church in SF.
Our Lady of Fatima Byzantine Catholic Church (Russian) in SF.
Syro Malabar Mission Of San Francisco in SF
Ge’ez Berkeley, Santa Rosa, Santa Clara.
Our Lady of Lebanon Maronite Catholic Church in Millbrae
St. Volodymyr Ukrainian Catholic Mission in Santa Clara.
St Elias Melkite-Greek Catholic Church in San Jose.
Saint Basil the Great Byzantine Catholic Church (Ruthenian) in Los Gatos.
St. Mary Assyrian Chaldean Catholic Church in Campbell.

PM me. I’m in the East Bay.

-Mary Louise

Thank you very much mlouise. I thought I would have to visit one on a random road trip, but there are so many! I’m honestly surprised. And you have another list after this list as well, hehe.

While I’m here, I also want to tank bpbasilphx, and definitely Aramis for answering my questions.

 

[malphono]

The Maronites have their “mass” (Quorbono), with several consecrations that may be fit in.
The Chaldeans have their “mass”, different from the Maronites, but similar, again, with several options for which consecration is used.

I’m not sure that’s quite correct, but before commenting further, let me ask a question: by “consecrations” do you mean anaphorae or the Institution Narrative itself?

 

[bpbasilphx]

Wait wait, what do you mean? I know what a sui juris church is now, but what is a liturgical family? And wouldn’t they not be Latin masses automatically since they are Eastern Catholic? And when you mentioned Othrodox, do you mean Eastern Orthodox, the group that is similar to the Eastern Catholic but is somehow in schism with the Roman Catholic Church. (Serious, I’m still so confused how things are different. I’m reading but there is a lot of catching up to do.)

The over 20 sui juris churches (depending on how you count them) are divided among some half-dozen liturgical families or rites:

1. Latin
2. Byzantine
3. West Syrian
4. East Syrian
5. Armenian
6. Alexandrian

Most of the sui juris churches follow some form of the Byzantine liturgy.

By their very nature of being Eastern they wouldnot and could not be “Latin masses.” “Latin” or “Roman” are not synonyms for “Catholic.”

Somehow, I’ve always thought of Eastern Catholic as being similar to Eastern Orthodox, not the other way around.

 

[mlouise007]

Wait wait, what do you mean? I know what a sui juris church is now, but what is a liturgical family? And wouldn’t they not be Latin masses automatically since they are Eastern Catholic? And when you mentioned Othrodox, do you mean Eastern Orthodox, the group that is similar to the Eastern Catholic but is somehow in schism with the Roman Catholic Church. (Serious, I’m still so confused how things are different. I’m reading but there is a lot of catching up to do.)

All the churches I gave you are ECC “in communion with Rome”. There are additionally many wonderful Orthodox parishes in SF and the surrounding communities. If you go to a DL/Vespers/Vigil at, for example, a Russian Orthodox church, you will see the same liturgy you’d see at the sui juris Byzantine CC. Does that make sense? (In addition to what bpbasilphx wrote about “liturgical families”.)

In that P.S. I mentioned the upcoming feast days as a time you might like to visit one of those Orthodox, or ECC, churches. I often go to an Orthodox parish on the feast days and or evening service the night before, on the occasions when my Byz parish is not having liturgy. In the Orthodox parish you wouldn’t take Eucharist, tho on services like Vespers there isn’t Eucharist anyway. For you interest in observing the DL you could observe it equally at an Orthodox or ECC and not know the difference, other than when prayers are offered to the Patriarch and the Bishop in which case obviously the names are different.

The Holy Virgin Russian Orthodox Cathedral Joy of All Who Sorrow which bpbasilphx mentioned on outer Geary is very beautiful and has an excellent bookstore with a very large inventory of icons mainly from St. Isaac’s Skete. I’ve gone to the Bookstore in the early afternoon on Sundays, maybe 12:30 or so, and found it open. There is a phone in the bookstore to call to check (415) 668-5218.

 

[mlouise007]

… but there are so many! I’m honestly surprised. And you have another list after this list as well, hehe.

That was a list of upcoming feast days we will be celebrating, thus additional opportunities to take part in the sacramental/liturgical life of these communities, not a list of additional parishes. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Aramis]

I’m not sure that’s quite correct, but before commenting further, let me ask a question: by “consecrations” do you mean anaphorae or the Institution Narrative itself?

Anaphorae.

 

[Aramis]

All the churches I gave you are ECC “in communion with Rome”. There are additionally many wonderful Orthodox parishes in SF and the surrounding communities. If you go to a DL/Vespers/Vigil at, for example, a Russian Orthodox church, you will see the same liturgy you’d see at the sui juris Byzantine CC. Does that make sense? (In addition to what bpbasilphx wrote about “liturgical families”.)

More correctly, they will be very close. The Russian Catholic and the OCA will be nigh identical, but the Ruthenian vs the OCA will have several notable but minor differences.

 

[mlouise007]

More correctly, they will be very close. The Russian Catholic and the OCA will be nigh identical, but the Ruthenian vs the OCA will have several notable but minor differences.

Thanks for mentioning that. I’ve been wanting to get down to Saint Basil the Great which is Ruthenian. When they post their Aug calendar I’ll see if there are some options for doing so. It will be interesting to me to see what, if any, differences I’m able to notice, as a Roman rite Catholic who hasn’t grown up in any DL. I know that I haven’t been able to tell when (if, but I think when) I’ve been in a DL of Saint Basil the Great, as compared to the usual DL of St. John Chrysostom at the parishes I attend. I don’t know enough, and I’m just absorbed in the Liturgy. I do want to get over to Saint Basil the Great Ruthenian Catholic Church so this is just another push to do so. I’ve read about, watched video clips of, various DLs, Qurbana, but it’s only in attending and participating that I really get any grasp of these liturgies.