Transferring Sins on to an Animal

[7777777Now]

I watched The Nativity Story movie that came out on DVD not too long ago recently.

There was a scene where Herod transfered his sins to a cow and then the cow was sacraficed. Was this a normal Jewish tradition?

Any comments about this subject will be helpful.

Thanks,
J

 

[Metaron]

I watched The Nativity Story movie that came out on DVD not too long ago recently.

Uh, I don’t know about the cow thing, but in ancient Israel on the Day of Atonement, the highpriest transfered the sins of all of Israel onto the scapegoat. It was then lead out to the wilderness, to Azazel.
Azazel is the name of the wilderness under which a demon, also named Azazel, was said to have been bound. He was the rebel angel who led 200 of the angelic Watchers in rebellion against God, and they mated with mortal women, and produced offspring, Giants called Nephilim. This is referenced in Genesis 6.

 

[paarsurrey]

Uh, I don’t know about the cow thing, but in ancient Israel on the Day of Atonement, the highpriest transfered the sins of all of Israel onto the scapegoat.

Hi

Please don’t mind if the Jews transferred their sins to a scapegoat and thought that they would be saved from the punishment of GodAllahYHWH, they were mistaken. Where are the animal lovers!
This is only a superstition.

Please don’t mind, I sometimes think my Christians brothers and friends also try to find a scapegoat in the form of the creed that Jesus died a cursed death on Cross for the atonement of their sins.
Where are Jesus’ lovers!
This is also only a superstition.

Quran/Islam/Muhammad deny both the above concepts.

[6:160] As for those who split up their religion and became divided into sects, thou hast no concern at all with them. Surely, their affair is with Allah, then shall He inform them of what they used to do.
[6:161] Whoso does a good deed shall have ten times as much; but he who does an evil deed, shall be requited only with the like of it; and they shall not be wronged.
[6:162] Say, 'My Lord has guided me unto a straight path - the right religion, the religion of Abraham, the upright. And he was not of those who associated gods with Allah.
[6:163] Say, ‘My Prayer and my sacrifice and my life and my death are all for Allah, the Lord of the worlds;
[6:164] He has no partner. And so I am commanded, and I am the first of those who submit.’
[6:165] Say, ‘Shall I seek a Lord, other than Allah while He is the Lord of all things?’ **And no soul earns evil but only against itself; nor does any bearer of burden bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord will be your return, and He will inform you of that wherein you used to differ. **
[6:166] And He it is who made you successors of others on the earth and has exalted some of you over others in degrees of rank, that He may try you by that which He has given you. Surely, thy Lord is Quick in punishment; and surely, He is Most Forgiving, Merciful.

Unquote

Thanks

 

[Mirdath]

That’d be a sin offering. Here is the Jewish Encyclopedia entry.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I watched The Nativity Story movie that came out on DVD not too long ago recently.

There was a scene where Herod transfered his sins to a cow and then the cow was sacraficed. Was this a normal Jewish tradition?

Any comments about this subject will be helpful.

Thanks,
J

Are Cows clean or unclean? I always thought they were unclean?

God states that cud-chewing animals with split hooves can be eaten (Leviticus 11:3; Deuteronomy 14:6). These specifically include the cattle, sheep, goat, deer and gazelle families (Deuteronomy 14:4-5). He also lists such animals as camels, rabbits and pigs as being unclean, or unfit to eat (Leviticus 11:4-8). He later lists such “creeping things” as moles, mice and lizards as unfit to eat (verses 29-31), as well as four-footed animals with paws (cats, dogs, bears, lions, tigers, etc.) as unclean (verse 27).

 

[7777777Now]

That’d be a sin offering. Here is the Jewish Encyclopedia entry.

Does the sin-offering using animals and Jesus dying on the cross atoneing for our sins have a relation?

 

[Valke2]

Are Cows clean or unclean? I always thought they were unclean?

God states that cud-chewing animals with split hooves can be eaten (Leviticus 11:3; Deuteronomy 14:6). These specifically include the cattle, sheep, goat, deer and gazelle families (Deuteronomy 14:4-5). He also lists such animals as camels, rabbits and pigs as being unclean, or unfit to eat (Leviticus 11:4-8). He later lists such “creeping things” as moles, mice and lizards as unfit to eat (verses 29-31), as well as four-footed animals with paws (cats, dogs, bears, lions, tigers, etc.) as unclean (verse 27).

Cows are kosher animals. Your post answered your own question.

 

[Valke2]

Does the sin-offering using animals and Jesus dying on the cross atoneing for our sins have a relation?

Not from a jewish perspective. But I’ve heard a lot of christians say otherwise.

 

[Chesster]

Does the sin-offering using animals and Jesus dying on the cross atoneing for our sins have a relation?

Read the book of Hebrews chapters 9 & 10.

 

[Naztakuan]

I know in the old testament they used goats…hence the “scape-goat”

 

[paarsurrey]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7777777Now
Does the sin-offering using animals and Jesus dying on the cross atoneing for our sins have a relation?

Hi

The sins have no direct relationship with the sacrfice of animal or human sacrifice or Jesus’ getting killed on Cross or any otherway.

Thanks

 

[SolaFide]

Yes, the sins had to be covered by blood…just one of several passages:

Leviticus 1:3-13
Lev 1:3 'If his offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he shall offer it, a male without defect; he shall offer it at the doorway of the tent of meeting, that he may be accepted before the LORD.
Lev 1:4 **'He shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, that it may be accepted for him to make atonement on his behalf. **
Lev 1:5 **'He shall slay the young bull before the LORD; and Aaron’s sons the priests shall offer up the blood and sprinkle the blood around on the altar that is at the doorway of the tent of meeting. **
Lev 1:6 'He shall then **skin the burnt offering and cut it into its pieces. **
Lev 1:7 'The sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire on the altar and arrange wood on the fire.
Lev 1:8 'Then Aaron’s sons the priests shall arrange the pieces, the head and the suet over the wood which is on the fire that is on the altar.
Lev 1:9 **'Its entrails, however, and its legs he shall wash with water And the priest shall offer up in smoke all of it on the altar for a burnt offering, an offering by fire of a soothing aroma to the **LORD.
Lev 1:10 'But if his offering is from the flock, of the sheep or of the goats, for a burnt offering, he shall offer it a male without defect.
Lev 1:11 **'He shall slay it **on the side of the altar northward before the LORD, and Aaron’s sons the priests shall sprinkle its blood around on the altar.
Lev 1:12 'He shall then cut it into its pieces with its head and its suet, and the priest shall arrange them on the wood which is on the fire that is on the altar.
Lev 1:13 'The entrails, however, and the legs he shall wash with water. And the priest shall offer all of it, and offer it up in smoke on the altar; it is a burnt offering, an offering by fire of a soothing aroma to the LORD.

Those sacrifices pre-figured or were types/symbols of the sacrifice of Christ to come:

Hebrews 9:11-22

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
Heb 9:12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.
Heb 9:17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.
Heb 9:18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
Heb 9:20 saying, “THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU.”
Heb 9:21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood.
Heb 9:22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

 

[Valke2]

There is really no requirement that sins must be covered in blood in the Torah. An animal/blood sacrifice was simply one way to expiate the sin. THere was always the option of repentence and prayer which co-existed as a means to attone for sin. And was in fact preferable.

 

[SolaFide]

There is really no requirement that sins must be covered in blood in the Torah. An animal/blood sacrifice was simply one way to expiate the sin. THere was always the option of repentence and prayer which co-existed as a means to attone for sin. And was in fact preferable.

Obedience was preferable. But since man is rebellious by nature since the fall, there had to be payment for sin. Even in the Garden of Eden, God had to do the first sacrifice for Adam and Eve’s sin. They had tried to cover themselves with the work of their own hands: fig leaf aprons. But God had to shed blood and cover them with skins, a constant reminder that the shedding of blood is what covers sins, not our own works of repentance and prayer.

Sorry, but there IS a requirement for blood to atone for sins in the Torah. The idea of good works and prayer can take care of sin did not even come into use until the Babylonian exile when the Jews had no Temple to which they could take their sacrifices. This is when the synagogue system came into practice.

Practically every sacrifice included the sprinkling of the blood on the altar or within the tabernacle, thus teaching that atonement involves the substitution of the animal’s life in exchange for the life of the one offering the sacrifice. Life for life.

This was to point the way to the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world: Y’shua haMashiach

Once a year the High Priest had to enter the Most Holy Place and sprinkle blood on the Mercy Seat on the Ark of the Covenant to make atonement for the people’s sins. But even not without offering a sacrifice of blood for his own sins first otherwise the High Priest would die entering the Most Holy Place. The Ark contained the stone tablets of the law. The blood was to cover the sins the people committed through the year by breaking those laws.

Lev 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and** I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.**

Atonement is “kaphar” in Hebrew. It means: “to cover, to purge, to expiate, to make reconciliation and to pacify”

If God did not require blood to expiate the sins of the people, then He sure went into a lot of detail in Exodus and Leviticus giving the sacrificial system for nothing. I don’t think the Almighty, blessed be He, would give those detailed of instructions just for kicks, do you?

 

[Pete_1]

7777777Now;3040586:

I watched The Nativity Story movie that came out on DVD not too long ago recently.

Uh, I don’t know about the cow thing, but in ancient Israel on the Day of Atonement, the highpriest transfered the sins of all of Israel onto the scapegoat. It was then lead out to the wilderness, to Azazel.
Azazel is the name of the wilderness under which a demon, also named Azazel, was said to have been bound. He was the rebel angel who led 200 of the angelic Watchers in rebellion against God, and they mated with mortal women, and produced offspring, Giants called Nephilim. This is referenced in Genesis 6.

I think your interpretation about the Nephilim is incorrect, please see this:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=69993&highlight=nephilim

 

[Metaron]

Metaron;3040615:

I think your interpretation about the Nephilim is incorrect, please see this:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=69993&highlight=nephilim

I don’t think so; I think the priest is mistaken. Angels can either ‘manifest’ bodies or incarnate, as many Bible passages seem to suggest. They intervene physically, and Jewish legend (I’m sure the Jews understand their own book of Genesis!) says that Azazel and the other angels descended on Mt. Hermon and did rebel against God by impregnating women and teaching them warfare, abortion, prostitute’s cosmetics, and divination by various means. Besides, why would Seth’s line produce Nephilim? That wouldn’t sense. But we can’t get into this here; it’s off-topic.

 

[Valke2]

Obedience was preferable. But since man is rebellious by nature since the fall, there had to be payment for sin. Even in the Garden of Eden, God had to do the first sacrifice for Adam and Eve’s sin. They had tried to cover themselves with the work of their own hands: fig leaf aprons. But God had to shed blood and cover them with skins, a constant reminder that the shedding of blood is what covers sins, not our own works of repentance and prayer.

Sorry, but there IS a requirement for blood to atone for sins in the Torah. The idea of good works and prayer can take care of sin did not even come into use until the Babylonian exile when the Jews had no Temple to which they could take their sacrifices. This is when the synagogue system came into practice.

Practically every sacrifice included the sprinkling of the blood on the altar or within the tabernacle, thus teaching that atonement involves the substitution of the animal’s life in exchange for the life of the one offering the sacrifice. Life for life.

This was to point the way to the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world: Y’shua haMashiach

Once a year the High Priest had to enter the Most Holy Place and sprinkle blood on the Mercy Seat on the Ark of the Covenant to make atonement for the people’s sins. But even not without offering a sacrifice of blood for his own sins first otherwise the High Priest would die entering the Most Holy Place. The Ark contained the stone tablets of the law. The blood was to cover the sins the people committed through the year by breaking those laws.

Lev 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and** I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.**

Atonement is “kaphar” in Hebrew. It means: “to cover, to purge, to expiate, to make reconciliation and to pacify”

If God did not require blood to expiate the sins of the people, then He sure went into a lot of detail in Exodus and Leviticus giving the sacrificial system for nothing. I don’t think the Almighty, blessed be He, would give those detailed of instructions just for kicks, do you?

As I said, that was one method of attoning for sins. Sacrifice.
Sincere repentant prayer is the **primary ** method for obtaining atonement when animal sacrifices cannot be offered concurrently. Animal sacrifices are only prescribed for unwitting or unintentional sin, with one exception for someone who swore falsely to acquit himself of the accusation of having committed theft (Leviticus 5:24-26). **Intentional sin can only be atoned for through repentance, unaccompanied by a blood sacrifice- Psalms 32:5, 51:16-19. **

“If My people, upon whom My name is called, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their evil ways; then will I hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin, and I will heal their land” (2 Chronicles 7:14)."

Besides, if you read Macabees, you see that there was a period of at least 3 years when no sacrifices could be offered, and this is prior to Jesus dying. So did God leave the Jews with their sins and no way to attone during this period?? No. We attoned through the traditional methods of repentence and prayer. And how do I know this?

“And you shall call upon Me, and go, and pray to Me, and I will hearken to you. And you shall seek Me, and find Me, when you shall search for Me with all your heart” (Jeremiah 29:13)

There’s no theological dilema for Jews springing from the fact that we can no longer offer sacrifices. It is merely a shift in emphasis as to how we repent. Biblically, prayer satisfies the requirements of attonement. It is at the core of attonement. Had something happened that made it impossible to repent through prayer, but allowed animal sacrifices, we Jews would be in much worse shape.

 

[paarsurrey]

As I said, that was one method of attoning for sins. Sacrifice.
Sincere repentant prayer is the **primary ** method for obtaining atonement when animal sacrifices cannot be offered concurrently. Animal sacrifices are only prescribed for unwitting or unintentional sin, with one exception for someone who swore falsely to acquit himself of the accusation of having committed theft (Leviticus 5:24-26). **Intentional sin can only be atoned for through repentance, unaccompanied by a blood sacrifice- Psalms 32:5, 51:16-19. **.

Hi

I agree with you.

Thanks