Transfiguration just a vision?

[Spencerian]

I don’t know how they knew it was Moses and Elijah, which causes me to fall back on the commentary I quoted earlier regarding the OT MVP’s handing off the baton to Christ. I’m not sure what you mean by the Revelation passages and they have a work around for 2 Cor 5:8. I know I could just throw tradition at them, but I’m just trying to work with this particular transfiguration scripture…I was browsing through my E-sword and for some reason I left out this horama passage in acts:

Act 12:9 And he went out and followed him; he did not know that what was done by the angel was real, but thought he was seeing a vision. (RSV)

This was an angel breaking Peter out of prison. My curiosity is the comparison between “real” and “vision”. What do you think?

A little simplicity may be helpful to remind yourself and your friend.

What our eyes see is the light reflected from or emitted by an object. What our brains “see” in a dream is not real but our brain still interprets this data into what constitutes vision. Whether that object is real or not doesn’t matter to the mind.

In the case of the many examples here, it is clear that the Apostles aren’t dreaming. They truly see what they saw. But how they reacted to what they saw is the key.

We’re talking God here in all his majesty, and in His most powerful heavenly creatures. Remind your friend that he cannot use mere human description and perception here. The Apostles and others that compiled the Scripture were direct or indirect witnesses to the supernatural. The supernatural, by its very nature, often defies any attempt by us mere humans to give it a classification. Scripture is the bona fide official descriptor of this sightings. For someone to reinterpret what is written as something other than what is said is highly un-scriptural–else you can reinterpret anything else you want in the Bible, which turns the book into meaningless babble.

This is where the JW arguments fail. Without a definitive teaching authority, a group of eyewitnesses (whose writings include the very people who compiled Scripture, who have definitely said, “This was what happened and what I saw”), the best that a JW can do is emit his own, human and fallible interpretation that’s not rooted in the Sacred Magisterium.

In short, for the JW argument to hold weight, they have to show the authority outside of Scripture that confirms their story. Since the visions are supernatural, they have to find a supernatural JW authority to confirm the nature of visions as illusory. They will not be able. They weren’t there. But our Magisterium *was *there, and remain here today, through the Spirit.

 

[thecone137]

A little simplicity may be helpful to remind yourself and your friend.

What our eyes see is the light reflected from or emitted by an object. What our brains “see” in a dream is not real but our brain still interprets this data into what constitutes vision. Whether that object is real or not doesn’t matter to the mind.

In the case of the many examples here, it is clear that the Apostles aren’t dreaming. They truly see what they saw. But how they reacted to what they saw is the key.

We’re talking God here in all his majesty, and in His most powerful heavenly creatures. Remind your friend that he cannot use mere human description and perception here. The Apostles and others that compiled the Scripture were direct or indirect witnesses to the supernatural. The supernatural, by its very nature, often defies any attempt by us mere humans to give it a classification. Scripture is the bona fide official descriptor of this sightings. For someone to reinterpret what is written as something other than what is said is highly un-scriptural–else you can reinterpret anything else you want in the Bible, which turns the book into meaningless babble.

This is where the JW arguments fail. Without a definitive teaching authority, a group of eyewitnesses (whose writings include the very people who compiled Scripture, who have definitely said, “This was what happened and what I saw”), the best that a JW can do is emit his own, human and fallible interpretation that’s not rooted in the Sacred Magisterium.

In short, for the JW argument to hold weight, they have to show the authority outside of Scripture that confirms their story. Since the visions are supernatural, they have to find a supernatural JW authority to confirm the nature of visions as illusory. They will not be able. They weren’t there. But our Magisterium *was *there, and remain here today, through the Spirit.

This helps tremendously. Thanks!