Transgendered individuals

[LaSainte]

Is it morally wrong to have a sex change if, after years of therapy, one is completely convinced that they are in the wrong body?

I ask this because to me, it seems to fall under the same category as reconstructive or plastic surgery. If someone is born with a third nipple or a cleft palate or even a nose they don’t like, we have no problem saying that those things are basically mistakes to be corrected, so why can’t a person whose BRAIN is actually telling them that a mistake was made be free to have what is essentially corrective surgery?

Additionally, if a brain surgery were made available to remove a tiny part of the brain that would solve a person’s gender identity issues, I assume the Church would have no problem with that, correct? Isn’t this a double standard?

 

[Corki]

Church teaching is that you cannot change your gender via surgery. In other words, if you are born male and have surgery to look female, you will still be male. To have surgery to attempt to be something you are not would be morally wrong.

The only exception that I know of is when there is a true disconnect between a persons genetic makeup and physical appearance. If a person is genetically female but appears male, surgery to reconcile the person’s genetic and physical genders would be truly reconstructive.

From a practical standpoint, when a person’s brain tells them something different than the body, isn’t it just as likely that the brain is wrong?

 

[LaSainte]

Church teaching is that you cannot change your gender via surgery. In other words, if you are born male and have surgery to look female, you will still be male. To have surgery to attempt to be something you are not would be morally wrong.

The only exception that I know of is when there is a true disconnect between a persons genetic makeup and physical appearance. If a person is genetically female but appears male, surgery to reconcile the person’s genetic and physical genders would be truly reconstructive.

From a practical standpoint, when a person’s brain tells them something different than the body, isn’t it just as likely that the brain is wrong?

Well, I think we all know that who a person “is” is all in the brain, in the mind. But, even if it were the case that the brain is “wrong” in these cases, we can’t really know for sure. The Church’s position would most likely be that it would still be moral to correct the brain with surgery if that were an option, yes?

I think we know the answer to that. So the question is, why so much emphasis on the sex organ? I could have brain surgery to correct the problem, but not surgery on my genetalia (if I had this condition)? Why?

 

[Corki]

Well, I think we all know that who a person “is” is all in the brain, in the mind. But, even if it were the case that the brain is “wrong” in these cases, we can’t really know for sure. The Church’s position would most likely be that it would still be moral to correct the brain with surgery if that were an option, yes?

No, brain surgery would be the same as genital surgery. When something is wrong with the brain in terms of self-identification, it is unlikely to be due to a defect in the physical structure of the brain but rather to a psychological one.

I think we know the answer to that. So the question is, why so much emphasis on the sex organ? I could have brain surgery to correct the problem, but not surgery on my genetalia (if I had this condition)? Why?

Actually, it’s the opposite. It’s not so much emphasis on the sex organ but rather emphasis on the whole person rather than a collection of parts that need to be fitted together.

 

[LaSainte]

So you are saying that if it were attributable to a Physical “switch” in the brain that could be turned on or off, then brain surgery would be just as immoral as genital surgery to correct the problem?

 

[Corki]

So you are saying that if it were attributable to a Physical “switch” in the brain that could be turned on or off, then brain surgery would be just as immoral as genital surgery to correct the problem?

No. If there was something miswired in the brain, where the brain and the DNA do not match, it would be just as moral as to have surgery to align outward physical attributes to DNA. What is immoral is to attribute gender to mental perception in spite of physical AND genetic proof to the contrary and to try to change the body to fit the feelings.

 

[babylonsfalling]

Is it morally wrong to have a sex change if, after years of therapy, one is completely convinced that they are in the wrong body?

I ask this because to me, it seems to fall under the same category as reconstructive or plastic surgery. If someone is born with a third nipple or a cleft palate or even a nose they don’t like, we have no problem saying that those things are basically mistakes to be corrected, <—Actual deformities are different than “a nose they don’t like” so why can’t a person whose BRAIN is actually telling them <—The brain doesn’t actually trump what’s right and wrong or make something correct or okay to do. A crack-baby’s brain tells him to use crack. The brain of a deranged person hallucinates…etc etc etc that a mistake was made be free to have what is essentially corrective surgery?

Additionally, if a brain surgery were made available to remove a tiny part of the brain that would solve a person’s gender identity issues, I assume the Church would have no problem with that, correct? <—I assume they WOULD have a problem with that. Isn’t this a double standard?

Cosmetic surgery is generally based on vanity so I would say no, it’s not okay in the first place. But either way, sex change surgery is still NOT comparable to cosmetic surgery because it’s based on much more than appearance and vanity.

And surgery to correct actual deformities is also not the same as surgery because you don’t like your nose, OR sex change surgery.

You’re trying to liken three things that are NOT alike.

 

[Nate13]

@LaSainte
The “norm” has to be based on something. You can’t say someone is sick until you establish what the norm is. The norm is that a genetic male has the genitals of a male and a genetic female has the genitals of a female. If the brain is saying something different then the brain is where the problem is assuming genetics match the body. Whether that is a physical problem with the brain or a psychological problem is hard to know but that is where the problem is. Reality is not based upon what we think. You don’t assume the schizophrenic person who thinks the government has a conspiracy to kill him is right and then change reality to match what he thinks.

The only reason transgendered surgery is occurring is because its easy to do and takes advantage of people looking for anyway out of the predicament they are in. It is similar to how we treat depression today. We hand out drugs to fix “chemical problems” in the brain and look past trying to fix the problems within peoples lives that are making them depressed. A kids parents get divorced and the kid starts acting depressed. Obviously something is screwed up with his brain, and his depression has nothing to do with the divorce… Do some people really have physical problems that account for their depression? yes, but I bet a vast majority do not. Another example would be the number of kids who are diagnosed with ADHD. Kids don’t perform in school and parents look for anything that might explain it. Its easier to throw them on ADHD then to try and fix the real problem. Transgendered surgeries are just another example of poor medical practices that treat symptoms not the real problem.

Also, don’t all of these sex changes result in a person becoming infertile?

 

[1ke]

Is it morally wrong to have a sex change if, after years of therapy, one is completely convinced that they are in the wrong body?

Yes.

I ask this because to me, it seems to fall under the same category as reconstructive or plastic surgery. If someone is born with a third nipple or a cleft palate or even a nose they don’t like, we have no problem saying that those things are basically mistakes to be corrected, so why can’t a person whose BRAIN is actually telling them that a mistake was made be free to have what is essentially corrective surgery?

It is not corrective surgery. The person is a male or female. They may have disordered desires or confused feelings, or a mental disorder for which they need therapy, but they do not need corrective surgery.

There is nothing to *correct *as in the case of an actual physical defect.

Additionally, if a brain surgery were made available to remove a tiny part of the brain that would solve a person’s gender identity issues, I assume the Church would have no problem with that, correct?

The same principles would apply as with any other type of surgery or intervention. I think your hypothetical is highly over-simplified and therefore it does not really do anyone any good to try to even talk about such a hypothetical situation.

Isn’t this a double standard?

No.

 

[1ke]

BTW, the Church teaches that a person **cannot **change their sex.

So called “sex change” operations are invalid as well as immoral. They do not change the person’s sex.

In 2000 the Vatican issued directives including that a person’s sex is not to be changed on baptismal or other records. Also, such persons [those who have had such a surgery in defiance of Church teaching] cannot marry or enter religious life.

The Church considers the condition a mental disorder.

 

[EasterJoy]

What if the person is convinced she is really a Romanov? What if he thinks he is in fact a rooster? Where do you draw the line? After all, isn’t the solution whereby a Nick tries to become a Nicole a quasi-suicide? What is moral about that?

Maybe the issue is not that people are being denied a surgery, but that they are being told that surgery, some medications, a name change and a new wardrobe can turn their unhealthy psychologically-based fantasy into a healthy reality. Maybe what they need to be taught is to expand their definition of their own gender to include them learning to be themselves and living their own true gender, rather than telling them to change their names, their wardrobes, and their bodies in order to live as someone they are not.

 

[Mudgely]

BTW, the Church teaches that a person **cannot **change their sex.

So called “sex change” operations are invalid as well as immoral. They do not change the person’s sex.

In 2000 the Vatican issued directives including that a person’s sex is not to be changed on baptismal or other records. Also, such persons [those who have had such a surgery in defiance of Church teaching] cannot marry or enter religious life.

The Church considers the condition a mental disorder.

It is a very complex core identity issue. Many sex change centers (the ones which were not doing it for profit) have stopped doing sex change operations because they found that the underlying problems were not resolved. Stanford University Medical Center is one of those. It was once pre-eminent in the field, but decided to stop doing the operation.

This lends support from practical experience to the CC position on the matter.

 

[white_sheep]

If someone’s chromosomes are XX they are female and if they are XY they are male, regardless of what they think.

 

[thistle]

Is it morally wrong to have a sex change if, after years of therapy, one is completely convinced that they are in the wrong body?

I ask this because to me, it seems to fall under the same category as reconstructive or plastic surgery. If someone is born with a third nipple or a cleft palate or even a nose they don’t like, we have no problem saying that those things are basically mistakes to be corrected, so why can’t a person whose BRAIN is actually telling them that a mistake was made be free to have what is essentially corrective surgery?

Additionally, if a brain surgery were made available to remove a tiny part of the brain that would solve a person’s gender identity issues, I assume the Church would have no problem with that, correct? Isn’t this a double standard?

Yes it is morally wrong. I posted this in another thread.

2001: Response by Fr. William P. Saunders:
A reader of the Catholic Herald from Roseville, CA asked Father Saunders – a columnist from the magazine:

"I know a man who had a ‘sex change’ operation and is now a ‘woman.’ What moral teaching does the Church give on this subject?" 1,2

Father Saunders quoted a Vatican II document titled: “Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World.” It stated that:

“Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day.”

When applied to transsexuality, the document implies that a person with GID must accept their body as it is. Surgically modifying one’s body would be a serious sin.

He also quotes Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:19:

“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”

The implication is that one’s body is not one’s own to be changed at will.

Finally, he quotes the **Catholic Catechism, item 2297:

“Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reason, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.” **

The process of sexual reassignment involves major changes to the persons body. For a male-to-female (MTF) transsexual, this involves removal of the penis, testicles, and scrotum. It involves hormone treatment and perhaps surgery to enlarge the breasts, removing part of the Adam’s apple, and/or changing the shape of her face. For a female-to-male (FTM) transsexual it involves the surgical removal of the breasts, uterus, ovaries, and hormone treatment, Fr. Sanders refers to this as:

“… a radical and grotesque mutilation of the body…To destroy organs purposefully that are healthy and functioning, and to try to create imitation organs which will never have the genuineness and functioning of authentic organs is gross and lacks charity.** Such surgery which purposefully destroys the bodily integrity of the person must be condemned.” **

 

[Dale_M]

Church teaching is that you cannot change your gender via surgery. In other words, if you are born male and have surgery to look female, you will still be male. To have surgery to attempt to be something you are not would be morally wrong.

I would like to add just a little nuance:

There is no public Church teaching about transsexualism. However, several priests and ethicists have applied their understanding of Church teaching to reach the points you make. Their guidance can safely be assumed to be morally acceptable, but we shouldn’t conflate their interpretations as being Church teaching itself.

The only exception that I know of is when there is a true disconnect between a persons genetic makeup and physical appearance. If a person is genetically female but appears male, surgery to reconcile the person’s genetic and physical genders would be truly reconstructive.

Again, there is no Church teaching which says this. Certainly it is a popular view here at CAF, however the question of genetics and development is far more complicated than XX or XY.

The only reason transgendered surgery is occurring is because its easy to do and takes advantage of people looking for anyway out of the predicament they are in.

No, the reason such surgery occurs is because for a very small percentage of persons with gender identity concerns it is the only effective treatment. However, the vast majority of persons who seek counseling for gender identity concerns do not progress to such surgery.

It is a very complex core identity issue. Many sex change centers (the ones which were not doing it for profit) have stopped doing sex change operations because they found that the underlying problems were not resolved.

Actually, universities got out of the sex-change business for the exact opposite reason. The field was well enough established and understood, with international standards of care developed for the therapy of transsexualism. Hence, there was no longer a need for universities to commit large resources to treatment and therapy, and such treatment moved to the private sector.

In 2000 the Vatican issued directives including that a person’s sex is not to be changed on baptismal or other records. Also, such persons [those who have had such a surgery in defiance of Church teaching] cannot marry or enter religious life.

The Church considers the condition a mental disorder.

What you posted is our best guess as to the Vatican’s position. However, the document you mention was issued under secrecy and is still not publicly available. A news leak about the document was published in 2003, and that seems to be the only public knowledge we have to work with.

Here is a link to that 2003 news story.
ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/CatholicTSDecision.html

NB: the article is hosted on a pro-transsexual website. The news agency which issued the article (which I remember reading way back when) is no longer hosted on the Catholic News Service website.

 

[manualman]

If someone’s chromosomes are XX they are female and if they are XY they are male, regardless of what they think.

When it is that simple, it really is that simple. But there ARE some transgendered people with chromosomal anomalies. IIRC they may have a mutated form that is actually something like XXY. What’s that? Not so simple.

So this discussion really does need to differentiate between those whose ‘transgender’ is entirely in the mind (no physical deformities) and those in which the problem is rooted in a genuine ambiguity that manifests itself physically. I’m not sure there are easy answers for the latter category.

 

[Nate13]

When it is that simple, it really is that simple. But there ARE some transgendered people with chromosomal anomalies. IIRC they may have a mutated form that is actually something like XXY. What’s that? Not so simple.

So this discussion really does need to differentiate between those whose ‘transgender’ is entirely in the mind (no physical deformities) and those in which the problem is rooted in a genuine ambiguity that manifests itself physically. I’m not sure there are easy answers for the latter category.

Correct, good point. I still stand by my original statement that the mind is by no means the determining factor in whether you are male or female. If anything it should be the least trustworthy factor. Does this way of thinking fix the problem that these people have? No, but neither does going to extreme measures to change their body to conform to their mental image of themselves. Even if they achieve this they have made themselves incapable of having children, which will probably cause more mental issues.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

When it is that simple, it really is that simple. But there ARE some transgendered people with chromosomal anomalies. IIRC they may have a mutated form that is actually something like XXY. What’s that? Not so simple.

So this discussion really does need to differentiate between those whose ‘transgender’ is entirely in the mind (no physical deformities) and those in which the problem is rooted in a genuine ambiguity that manifests itself physically. I’m not sure there are easy answers for the latter category.

The hormones that cause the brain to become male or female is done at a different time then the hormones that cause the physical change, so it is entirely possible that the brain can become female in uterus while the body becomes male. Likewise with a male brain and female body, indeed after death they can find out the sex of the brain due to the brain being a sexually dimorphic thing. Is it all in their mind?

Of course they are also receiving hormones from their body post birth which muddles the mind further since they have a soul of one gender, but their mind is pretty much the other.

PS I do not agree with sex change operations and find them morally repugnant

 

[EasterJoy]

The hormones that cause the brain to become male or female is done at a different time then the hormones that cause the physical change, so it is entirely possible that the brain can become female in uterus while the body becomes male. Likewise with a male brain and female body, indeed after death they can find out the sex of the brain due to the brain being a sexually dimorphic thing. Is it all in their mind?

Of course they are also receiving hormones from their body post birth which muddles the mind further since they have a soul of one gender, but their mind is pretty much the other.

PS I do not agree with sex change operations and find them morally repugnant

The “sexual dimorphic thing” is a trend in the relative sizes of certain features of the brain, not an anatomical feature.

I get your point, however: This (and perhaps all) disturbances of the mind can fairly be assumed to have a physical or organic component in many if not the vast majority of cases. It would be extremely unusual for someone to choose gender confusion in order to show off or be eccentric! It’s a very hard issue to deal with. Not as much of a spiritual difficulty as being born a sociopath, but still a very great difficulty to contend with.

Even if this were something not of a physical origin, such as being convinced you are in fact Irish when you are actually Samoan, it deserves compassion, all the same. There is perhaps no physical torment as unremitting as a mental or emotional torment.

If a person is in extreme pain and asks us to shoot them to put them out of their misery, of course we can’t do that. Still, we would do everything we could do in order to help ease their suffering, and we would not blame them for being willing to take extreme measures to ease their pain. I think many mental disorders and even typical emotional trials are more like that than people realize.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

The “sexual dimorphic thing” is a trend in the relative sizes of certain features of the brain, not an anatomical feature.

I get your point, however: This (and perhaps all) disturbances of the mind can fairly be assumed to have a physical or organic component in many if not the vast majority of cases. It would be extremely unusual for someone to choose gender confusion in order to show off or be eccentric! It’s a very hard issue to deal with. Not as much of a spiritual difficulty as being born a sociopath, but still a very great difficulty to contend with.

Even if this were something not of a physical origin, such as being convinced you are in fact Irish when you are actually Samoan, it deserves compassion, all the same. There is perhaps no physical torment as unremitting as a mental or emotional torment.

If a person is in extreme pain and asks us to shoot them to put them out of their misery, of course we can’t do that. Still, we would do everything we could do in order to help ease their suffering, and we would not blame them for being willing to take extreme measures to ease their pain. I think many mental disorders and even typical emotional trials are more like that than people realize.

Sexual dimorphism is based on phenotype which is observable characteristics including behaviour. The function of the brain is sexual dimorphic.

Yes, we absolutely must love them and help them with their cross however we can.