Transitive belief

[Roguish]

Here’s yet another way of rewording my original inquiry: if you mentally accept Christ as your savior, but have no experience of communing with Him, are you still saved?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Yes, but you’re missing out on having a relationship with Him.

Faith and belief are two different things, yet connected to each other.

Belief is a choice to believe in Jesus Christ.

Faith, is the experience of Jesus Christ revealing Himself, however that may happen.

Pray for faith, for it’s the way communicates with us best.

Jim

 

[Benadam]

Lets see, if you know about someone does that change the reality you’ve constructed. What is believed to be real is what alters our perception of reality… Belief constructs reality and you will respond to that reality accordingly… If beliefs have the power to be real they alter the construct of one’s reality. A person’s friends might say , Hey you’ve changed, the person might say back, it’s not me that’s changed it’s the world that’s changed.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Belief doesn’t transform the person, only the transforming grace given by Jesus Christ and this requires faith.

Religion that doesn’t help lead a person to faith in order to be transformed, is bad religion.

Jim

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I agree.
Belief, no matter how intellectual or pedantic it is, is a start. It’s better than unbelief.

The danger is that if you don’t love Jesus and accept Him as your personal savior and reason for getting up in the morning, you might end up lukewarm.

Still, most of us who are not born as little childhood saints tend to not experience this big love of God until we get knocked around by life in some way and become open to receiving God’s transforming grace, often when we are at a low ebb.

It can be hard for folks who are not open to the mystical aspects of God to understand and accept God’s grace. They may prefer to just think in logical terms for fear of feeling superstitious, ignorant, or overemotional. We should pray that the Holy Spirit works in them to give them a powerfull experience of grace so they love Jesus more.

 

[fhansen]

Tis_Bearself:

What’s a “transitive” belief vs. an “intimate, intransitive” belief?

I use these terms roughly the way they’re used in grammar. In the transitive case, the act of believing has a “target” at which the act of belief is directed (an “object”, in grammar terminology). The object is Christ in this case. In the intransitive case, the act of believing is not aimed at an object, but affects the “I” who does the believing (the “subject”, grammatically speaking).

So a transitive belief is a belief in which Christ is an “other”, who is known conceptually. With regard to the nature of the mental action involved, a transitive belief in Christ is not different from a belief in the existence of, say, molecules – though it is obviously different with regard to significance. Neither Christ nor molecules are visible. Either can be accepted as “truthful” concepts through an act of reason, an act of faith, or an act of hope.

An intransitive belief is a belief in which Christ is not an “other” but in which His Living Presence is experienced directly, without the mediation of thought. He is known to be “Here”. In this case “I believe in Christ” really becomes “I believe while I remain (or abide) in Christ.” (cf. John 15:4) Christ is then not the “target”, but the Living Presence in which the belief occurs.

Btw, I’m not saying that it would be healthy to have only intransitive belief. I’m rather wondering about the opposite: would it be healthy (or rather: sufficiently salvific) to have only transitive belief.

Are you saying people need more to be saved than just accepting Christ as their savior?

I’m saying it seems to me that the very “accepting” is for many people only a mental act, and I’m wondering if that alone would work the believer’s salvation. But I could be wrong, for either of the two reasons I mentioned. Either there could be more people with intransitive belief than I think – and those people might not even be able to articulate that; or, it could be that transitive belief alone is sufficient. But about the latter, I don’t see how that could be possible, which is the reason for my concern.

It’s a process, a work of God that we’re to cooperate in achieving, not truly consummated until we love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. That’s where our full justice lies, that’s what faith is intended to lead to because faith is the initial establishment for man of relationship, or communion, with God, ‘apart from Whom we can do nothing’. But faith (intellectual assent) alone doesn’t make the cut even as it’s a theological virtue, a supernatural gift along with hope and love. I love a related concept stated by Basil of Cesarea:

"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."

 

[Benadam]

Belief doesn’t transform the person, only the transforming grace given by Jesus Christ and this requires faith.

Believing Jesus is faith.
Matthew 9
“Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They said to him, “Yes, Lord.” 29 Then he touched their eyes and said, “According to your faith let it be done to you.” 30 And their eyes were opened.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

No, belief is not faith, but is connected to faith.

Faith is a gift and comes from Jesus revelation of Himself, however that may happen.

A person can believe but not have faith. However, a person who has faith is transformed.

Even the devil believes in Jesus.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church;

176 Faith is a personal adherence of the whole man to God who reveals himself. It involves an assent of the intellect and will to the self-revelation God has made through his deeds and words.

179 Faith is a supernatural gift from God. In order to believe, man needs the interior helps of the Holy Spirit.

We can chose to believe, but until we receive the gift of faith from God, our belief is merely the beginning of turning to Him.

Some only have belief and I believe it’s because they are unwilling to turn to Christ, out of fear of having to change.

Jim

 

[Benadam]

Even the devil believes in Jesus.

He knows fully but he is a liar and there is no truth in him. So the devil can’t believe like these.
John 14:12 Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father.

Romans 9:33 as it is written, “See, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make people stumble, a rock that will make them fall, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Belief requires receiving the gift of faith to go with it, otherwise it’s just an intellectual decision to believe and we have plenty of Catholics who follow the religion because of a decision to believe, but have yet to receive faith.

Most who only chose to believe, will become frustrated with religion and leave it.

Those who have faith, practice religion out of love for God, who gives them the grace of faith,

Jim

 

[Benadam]

I believe that.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Faith - the beginning of eternal life

163 Faith makes us taste in advance the light of the beatific vision, the goal of our journey here below. Then we shall see God “face to face”, “as he is”.47 So faith is already the beginning of eternal life:

When we contemplate the blessings of faith even now, as if gazing at a reflection in a mirror, it is as if we already possessed the wonderful things which our faith assures us we shall one day enjoy.

Jim

 

[Benadam]

amen! I believe that too! Do I believe in eternal life because I know eternal life or because I believe God gave me the grace to believe in eternal life?

 

[Dovekin]

Even the devil believes in Jesus.

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that —and shudder. james 2:19

“The desire to thank you is itself your gift…”

Long before we conceive of any relationship with God, God is wotking to develop a relationship with us. Learning about God is one step on the path to knowing “transitively” but more important is relating it to our “intransitive” knowledge of God, knowledge gained over many years and predating our “learning about.”

 

[JimR-OCDS]

When God gives you grace, you get a taste of eternal life here on earth.

“Divine Union,” which is often called the “Holy Marriage of the soul to the Beloved, Jesus Christ,” is a gift some receive here on earth. It is the highest level of faith we receive while still being on earth.

Jim

 

[Benadam]

I agree. Union with God and the experience of being lifted up to Him in contemplative prayer transforms the soul. It isn’t something we can make happen by believing it will happen. But what it does is make me believe there is more than I already believe. Belief in God that leads to love for God is faith then. If I say my faith is Catholic. What does it mean but the gift of Christ the Church offers is what I believe because of the grace I receive and experience in this life?

 

[fhansen]

In the end God’s the judge of what we’ve done with any and all gifts given: faith, hope, love-grace, revelation, time, opportunity, experience.

 

[stpurl]

When I Google those phrases I get some real STRANGE stuff, Jim. But I’m sure there are reputable Catholic sites where you are seeing these. Would you mind letting us know where so that we aren’t wading through pages and pages of "Isis and Osiris to Christianity’ etc?

 

[ratio1]

it seems more likely that knowing Christ would allows one to know about him also, than the other way around.

I’m not sure whether I agree with this. Someone who knows about God a lot naturally would want to know him more I think.

But ultimately the real question is never “what?” But rather “how?” And “why?” (I think that’s what Bishop Barron said in the Catholicism series)

People are different and some people may Be more tuned in with the intellectual side of things and some may be more tuned in with the spiritual or experience side of things. Both are good and required in my opinion. If someone who knows a lot of knowledge but refuses to connect with God in a personal level, that’s quite different to someone who tries to connect but find it difficult.
The converse is true. If a spiritual person connects with God but refuses to learn about the the Catholic Church teaching, that’s quite different to someone who tries to study but does not have the intellectual capacity.

Throughout the Gospels Jesus teaches us it’s always about the heart. Hence how and why you’re doing it rather than what we do. Hence it is not up to us to judge others. We may see other people who don’t seem very spiritual yet knows a lot. Or we may see someone who seems to have a deep faith but does not seem to subscribe to every single church teaching. Perhaps they have already tried their best (like the poor woman in the gospel who donated a few coins) we just don’t know. Only God knows.

And this is what I love about the Catholic Church because it is truly “Catholic” ie universal as it caters for everyone. People can be a spiritual monk or they can be an apologist/theologian. Everyone can be saved.