Translation of Romans 8: 28?

[Jim_Baur]

Romans 8: 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. (English Standard Version)

Romans 8: 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. (NKJV)

These are two different translations.

The first one is from The Holy Bible, English Standard Version @ 2001 Crossway Bibles.

The second if from New King James Version.

Why is there such a different structure?

Or, it seems to me to be different in structure.

If one could place a time sequence on this passage: Is the ***call ***before love?

In other words: Does He call us and then we love Him? This question is asking about this passage.

Thanks!

I know I will get plenty of help.

Again, thanks!

“Type slow because I read slow.”

 

[Old_Scholar]

Romans 8: 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. (English Standard Version)

Romans 8: 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. (NKJV)

These are two different translations.

The first one is from The Holy Bible, English Standard Version @ 2001 Crossway Bibles.

The second if from New King James Version.

Why is there such a different structure?

Or, it seems to me to be different in structure.

If one could place a time sequence on this passage: Is the ***call ***before love?

In other words: Does He call us and then we love Him? This question is asking about this passage.

Thanks!

I know I will get plenty of help.

Again, thanks!

“Type slow because I read slow.”

They both say the same thing but as you say, it is phrased a little differently.

The activity of the Spirit on our behalf points to the ultimate security in God of those whom He has chosen. The presence of the Spirit, the first-fruits, is a proof that the Age to Come has dawned, and that its consummation cannot be long delayed. We know that all things co-operate for good to those who love God. On the text of this passage we have to choose between two different ways of taking the sentence. Most authorities supply the subject of the verb ‘to co-operate’. Some omit it. God co-operates in all things and all things co-operate. With those who love Him, God co-operates in all things for good. Paul thought Christ had overcome and was overcoming the powers of evil. Paul knew the last period of world history was speeding to a close which would bring salvation to the elect.

Paul doesn’t often describe Christians as ‘those who love God’. For him, love generally describes the relation of God to men, while for the relation of men to God he reserves the term faith. In this verse, he displays an accurate use of words, for men can never love God (who is altogether worthy of our regard) in the sense which God loves us, his enemies. Paul cannot allow himself to leave the impression that men may exercise an initiative which properly belongs to God alone. Those who love God are more searchingly defined as those who are called in accordance with his purpose.

AS for the ‘calling’, ‘calling’ is the realization in history of God’s eternal purpose(Rom 9:11) also (Eph 1:11, 3:11). It is here, in God’s purpose, that the ultimate assurance of salvation rests. You will have to read the next two verses where the purpose and its realization is analyzed.

Hope this helps you…

 

[Ruthie]

From my study materials, I think the NKJV is closest to the original word order in Greek. The ESV may have moved the phrase “for those who love God” to make the sentence easier to read.

What I find more interesting is “to” versus “for.” The Greek word can mean both, as well as “into” and “towards.” I find reading the verse with “into” very interesting!

“And we know that all things work together into good into those who love God, into those who are the called according to His purpose.”
Hmm…

Ruthie

 

[NoelFitz]

Jim & OS

Thank you for your post.

I really think both of you are trying to read too much into this relatively simple verse.

Jim asks Does He call us and then we love Him?

The verse does not answer this question.

OS the verse does not discuss the age to come.

IMO, the ESV translation is not close to the original, while the NKJV is.

A possible translation is

and we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to (His) purpose.

Some other translations are

NAB Romans 8:28 ¶ 1 We know that all things work for good for those who love God, 2 who are called according to his purpose.

NRS Romans 8:28 ¶ We know that all things work together for good1 for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.

NAU Romans 8:28 ¶ And we know that 1God causes aall things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are bcalled according to His purpose.

ASV Romans 8:28 ¶ And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose.

BBE Romans 8:28 ¶ And we are conscious that all things are working together for good to those who have love for God, and have been marked out by his purpose.

PS:

OS has a picture of the Bible and wrote "On this solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand."

Are you a sola scriptura person?

 

[Old_Scholar]

Jim & OS

Thank you for your post.

I really think both of you are trying to read too much into this relatively simple verse.

Jim asks Does He call us and then we love Him?

The verse does not answer this question.

OS the verse does not discuss the age to come.

When Paul says: “those who are called in accordance with God’s purpose” I think of the AV that seems to attribute to Paul an evolutionary optimism, but that was foreign to Paul’s thought. It is a little less harsh as a rendering of the Greek however than the other versions. Although Paul was not an evolutionary opitmist he did believe that Christ had overcome and was overcoming the powers of evil as I said. Check out verses 35, 38-39; 1 Cor 24-28; and Col 2:15. Check Romans 8:11.

Reading of Romans 1:1 and 1:6 also will tell you much more of “calling.” ‘Calling’ is the realization in history of God’s eternal purpose. (Rom 9:11) and (Eph 1:11, 3:11) Romans 8:29-30 goes further into the context of verse 28.

Don’t take just one verse and try to fully understand it without putting it into the proper context.

Romans is the book of doctrine and must be studied completely in order to understand it.

IMO, the ESV translation is not close to the original, while the NKJV is.

A possible translation is

and we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to (His) purpose.

Some other translations are
PS:

OS has a picture of the Bible and wrote "On this solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand."

Are you a sola scriptura person?

Yes I am…

 

[NoelFitz]

OS
I think I misunderstood the OP. I thought this thread was about the translation of Romans 8:28

If one is asked to translate a verse, I do not think your advice is inappropriate.

Don’t take just one verse and try to fully understand it without putting it into the proper context.

Rom 8 28 in NA27 is

Οἴδαμεν δὲ ὅτι τοῖς ἀγαπῶσιν τὸν θεὸν πάντα συνεργεῖ εἰς ἀγαθόν, τοῖς κατὰ πρόθεσιν κλητοῖς οὖσιν.

I consider my translation OK

and we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to (His) purpose.

If you are a sola scriptura person, why the pictuire of St Antony? Do you not see a role for tradition and the magisterium?

(How do I get Greek font into CA posts?)

 

[Old_Scholar]

OS
I think I misunderstood the OP. I thought this thread was about the translation of Romans 8:28

If one is asked to translate a verse, I do not think your advice is inappropriate.

Rom 8 28 in NA27 is

Οἴδαμεν δὲ ὅτι τοῖς ἀγαπῶσιν τὸν θεὸν πάντα συνεργεῖ εἰς ἀγαθόν, τοῖς κατὰ πρόθεσιν κλητοῖς οὖσιν.

I consider my translation OK

and we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to (His) purpose.

If you are a sola scriptura person, why the pictuire of St Antony? Do you not see a role for tradition and the magisterium?

(How do I get Greek font into CA posts?)

Perhaps I over did it a little. I always study very deeply and I guess I think everyone does. That comes from my scholarly and theological background I guess.

Do I see a role for tradition? Yes I do. Every church and every denomination has their tradition. I do not believe in the term Sacred Tradition however when that tradition speaks of something different than Scripture.

The Magesterium may have a role but not when it has total authority of translation of Scripture. When used as a training organization, yes I believe in it. However it seems that in the RCC it has total control of all things pertaining to faith and morals even to the exclusion of Scripture. In the early church, the first 3 centuries, the church believed that any tradition that could not be substantiated by Scripture was false and since that time one can see what has happened. Scripture is not believed anymore—it is added to and explained differently than it was written and intended. I don’t believe that was the intent of the authors…

 

[NoelFitz]

OS

Thank you for your very friendly post.

You wrote

I always study very deeply

My point is one should only get from a text what is in the actual text. There is a difference betwenn exegesis and eisegesis.

You also wrote:

Scripture is not believed anymore—it is added to and explained differently than it was written and intended. I don’t believe that was the intent of the authors…

I really do think you were adding to what was in Rom 8:28.

In the RCC there is academic freedom. There are very few parts of Scripture where freedom of opinion is limited.

The freedom of opinion/thought within the RCC is shown by the many different views expressed in CA.

I think my signature motto summarized the ideal.

 

[Old_Scholar]

OS

Thank you for your very friendly post.

You wrote

My point is one should only get from a text what is in the actual text. There is a difference betwenn exegesis and eisegesis.

You also wrote:

I really do think you were adding to what was in Rom 8:28.

In the RCC there is academic freedom. There are very few parts of Scripture where freedom of opinion is limited.

The freedom of opinion/thought within the RCC is shown by the many different views expressed in CA.

I think my signature motto summarized the ideal.

Perhaps the most important is charity…

 

[Jim_Baur]

Galatians 5: 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh (“energeo”) by love.

While I have your attention: Is it at all possible for this to be translated another way?

First consideration: worketh or work. Could there be a clearer word for 2008?

Second and more importantly: love that gives energy to faith.

Is this improper? Is this even possible?

Is this passages saying that love gives energy or life to faith?

Could this life or energy come from God’s love of Roman chapter 5: 5? God’s love poured into our hearts.

THANKS! Thanks! Thank you! Thank you! Thanks!

THANK YOU!!!

 

[NoelFitz]

Jim

many thanks for your post.

Galatians 5: 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh (“energeo”) by love.

What Gal 5:6 has is not relevant to the issue here, which is Rom 8:28.

While I have your attention: Is it at all possible for this to be translated another way?

Yes, many different ways, some more accurate than others.

First consideration: worketh or work. Could there be a clearer word for 2008?

My translation is:
and we know that all things **work together **for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to (His) purpose.

This seems OK to me.

SUNERGEW is defined as:

συνεργέω work with, work together with, cooperate with, help

Barclay Moon Newman, Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament., 173 (Stuttgart, Germany: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft; United Bible Societies, 1993).

Second and more importantly: love that gives energy to faith.

Is this improper? Is this even possible?

Is this passages saying that love gives energy or life to faith?

Could this life or energy come from God’s love of Roman chapter 5: 5? God’s love poured into our hearts.

These questions are interesting. They involve interpretation. My concern is to find out as closely as possible what the Bible says. Interpretation, with various views and opinions, comes later.

THANKS! Thanks! Thank you! Thank you! Thanks!

THANK YOU!!!