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redrosetea
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I don’t think you can change your gender, you can only self mutilate…
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MarieCB
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You can’t change your sex (or sexual orientation). Your gender is merely the physical appearance.
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hyflyer64
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Not despised, just talked to death.
An awful lot of posters have exercised an awful lot of patience engaging in discussions about this issue on CAF. However, clearly some people are not satisfied with the answers and wish to change minds, and/or to have the issue supersede other issues in importance & prominence.
*Elizabeth, In no way do I think we are attempting to supersede other issues in importance or prominence. However, I have to ask you, if that is how you feel, why are you here?? *
To oneself, one’s own problems and sufferings tend to be the most important things in the world. And if a lot of other people are experiencing similar problems, one can receive a lot of empathy and practical support. But if very few people share that situation, it is not realistic to expect that forum participants will want to open yet a fifth thread about the same topic that has already been rehashed and patiently discussed.
Same for my own specialty, rare, or unique problems. If I had such specialty situations (and I have – just different ones than this topic), I would seek a specific niche support group in which I could find common ground with others – rather than seeking a conservative or mainstream forum for an extreme or (relatively) rare problem, especially if my moral viewpoint did not coincide with the forum I had already approached unsuccessfully 4 or 5 times, minimum.
- To a large extent, that is very true. One of my pastors once said, “when you have stress in your life, all other issues pale, until you have resolved that stress issue”. That could mean being in love, having an illmess, having a bad home situation, etc. For those with unresolved TS issues, the level of stress can reach intolerable levels.*
*For some of us, the only reason we are still here, alive, is because of our faith. However when we turn to those in our faith community, hopping for support and understanding, we are condemned, for the most part.
So maybe you have a valid point re:“seeking a conservative or mainstream forum for an extreme or (relatively) rare problem”. Maybe we should just stop spinning our wheels and rethink what we are looking to accomplish here. Maybe we should not care when a “Senior Member” states that the Church should continue to “condemn” SRS when in fact the “Church” doesn’t, only members in most parishes because parish priests don’t have the facts from their own leaders.
I feel that in a lot of cases, it wouldn’t make much of a difference if they did have the facts, because when it comes to Catholics, and a lot of other so called “Christian faiths”, I think that a lot of them are not “real Christians”.( that will be the subject of another thread)*
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hyflyer64
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First off, most of us do not “self mutilate”
Came close but could not deal with the thought of all the blood.:nope: Decided to go to an expert and have to say that he did a really nice job. No mutilation there.
Marcie said, "You can’t change your sex (or sexual orientation). Your gender is merely the physical appearance. "
I would like to comment on that satement. For the most part I agree with the first sentence. However,don’t confuse physical appearance with “gender”. Gender is not your physical appearance it is in your brain. It is who you are. I am a woman. My physical appearance did not match that mental image, so I had it corrected. The physical that is.
Also, “sexual orientation” is a totaly different issue. My gender issue had absolutely nothing to do with my sexual preference. The majority of society views gender issues as something that someone claims in order to justify having sex with someone of the “same sex”. Way too much “Jerry Springer”.
My sister expected me to find myself a man as soon as I could. To be honest, I was curious about making it with a guy.
Hate to disapoint her. I’m a lesbian.
Go figure.
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MarieCB
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Hmmm … I was only going by the way it was explained to me, that sex is in your brain and gender is your physical body. Those two words seem to keep causing such a muddle, because we often interchange them. At any rate, I DO agree with you completely.
Marcie said, "You can’t change your sex (or sexual orientation). Your gender is merely the physical appearance. "
I would like to comment on that satement. For the most part I agree with the first sentence. However,don’t confuse physical appearance with “gender”. Gender is not your physical appearance it is in your brain. It is who you are. I am a woman. My physical appearance did not match that mental image, so I had it corrected. The physical that is.
Also, “sexual orientation” is a totaly different issue. My gender issue had absolutely nothing to do with my sexual preference. The majority of society views gender issues as something that someone claims in order to justify having sex with someone of the “same sex”. Way too much “Jerry Springer”.
My sister expected me to find myself a man as soon as I could. To be honest, I was curious about making it with a guy.
Go figure.
What I was trying to say was that it’s impossible to change the mental image OR sexual orientation, but it is possible to change the physical body.
Do people really think that about gender issues? LOL
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whatevergirl
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The Catholic view on transsexualism, is that it is a psychological issue. That being said, the Catholic Church views surgeries and hormone treatments to augmenting one’s body to appear more like that of the opposite sex, as a sin. That isn’t lacking compassion though. The Church has compassion for those who suffer, no matter what the suffering is…but, She teaches that it would be ‘best’ for a person who is struggling with such an affliction, to pray, to ask God for strength in dealing with the difficulties that they are feeling…etc…It’s in the changing of one’s body, that the Church finds sinful. Surgery and hormone treatments only fulfill half the story for a person struggling to make sense of their genetic gender. Having body parts removed/added, hormone therapy to bring about a beard, say for a woman, etc…will only provide an outward appearance of a different gender, but the struggle will still remain deeply rooted within a transexual’s opinions of self. The Church doesn’t cast out rules to hurt us, but rather, in Her infinite wisdom, wants to help us. I know that there are many Christians who have no tolerance for homosexuals, transsexuals, etc…but, that isn’t what the Catholic Church teaches, to have no tolerance. Rather, She teaches that we should have compassion and love for all human beings. But, if we think that the Church should tolerate mutilation of body, to achieve a ‘greater good,’ whatever that greater good might be to the person, that is where we might disagree.Hi
Thank you for your “Christian” attitude and for your prayers.
As for “people often express anger with things they don’t understand.”, I agree with you. However, let’s not forget all the ignorant people that hate blacks, jews, gays, and just about any minority. Some of those people post on CAF, pretending to be conservative voices in support of the CC.
And “I believe that the Church does have a stance on this, and it’s a very compassionate one.” I very much disagree. As I state in a previous post, The Church released a “secret” document to the bishops. I would be glad to point you in the direction to get that info. Also resources to the person that heavily influenced the churches stance. There you will see the picture of a man that has no problem using self serving tactics to further his personal agenda, no matter who it hurts. Heck, we really are a very small minority.
Just because we can do something (take hormone treatments to change our appearance) doesn’t mean we should. I don’t pretend to ever know the difficulties someone with such an issue is going through, but I think that one might create MORE confusion in his/her life, by undergoing expensive surgeries, only to feel that all they have done is create an illusion of who they are to the outside world. (and possibly for themselves)
So, that perhaps is where you might think that the Church lacks compassion, because She sees a person’s attempts to change one’s self towards who they think they should have born as, as immoral.
In a nutshell, the affliction itself isn’t immoral, the struggle, the problems a transsexual person feels is not immoral, of course…but if they change their body to appear to be something other than how they were born, that is wrong, in the Church’s eyes.
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aspawloski4th
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For those here that think the ways transsexuals deal with themselves is wrong or a sin. In practical and tangible terms, what would you have us do? Be specific and leave nothing to the imagination. I’ve heard from the other side of the topic what I should not do, plenty up to here. I’m just curious as to what you think we should do. Make it tangible.
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pete_29
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Is God so incompetent that He puts “male minds” into female bodies and vice versa? I’m sorry, but I can’t accept that.
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aspawloski4th
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No he doesn’t nature made the mistake. It’s a birth defect, birthdefects do happen you know. I don’t think I have to go through the other possible birthdefects out there.
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pete_29
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Do you equate transsexualism with, say, spina bifida?
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aspawloski4th
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Now that you ask. On the surface yes. In total, to an extent. Have you read the question I posed?
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pete_29
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I find this premise insulting. As to your question, to loathe or despise anyone is a sin.
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hyflyer64
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Hun, (forgive me that familiarity, I feel that I’m old enough to use it
) where do you get what sounds like an official position on this subject, regarding Catholic Churches stance on hormones and surgery??? People are going to read your statements and say “SEE, I knew it, the church is against this”. Please do your homework before you state things like that.
I qoute what I think are the pertinent points of an article;
Vatican says ‘sex-change’ operation does not change person’s gender
By John Norton Catholic News Service
VATICAN CITY (CNS) – After years of study, the Vatican’s doctrinal congregation has sent church leaders a confidential document concluding that “sex-change” procedures do not change a person’s gender in the eyes of the church.
Consequently, the document instructs bishops never to alter the sex listed in parish baptismal records and says Catholics who have undergone “sex-change” procedures are not eligible to marry, be ordained to the priesthood or enter religious life, according to a
source familiar with the text.
The document was completed in 2000 and sent “sub secretum” (under secrecy) to the papal representatives in each country to provide guidance on a case-by-case basis to bishops. But when it became clear that many bishops were still unaware of its existence, in 2002 the congregation sent it to the presidents of bishops’ conferences as well.
The Vatican text defines transsexualism as a psychic disorder of those whose genetic makeup and physical characteristics are unambiguously of one sex but who feel that they belong to the opposite sex. In some cases, the urge is so strong that the person undergoes a “sex-change” operation to acquire the opposite sex’s external sexual organs. The new organs have no reproductive function.
The document’s conclusions close one area of controversial speculation that arose in Italy in the late 1980s when a priest publicly announced he had undergone a “sex-change” operation.
Given church teaching that only males can be validly ordained priests, the question posed in newspapers at the time was whether a priest who undergoes a “sex-change” operation remains a priest – the answer is “yes” – and whether a woman who undergoes the procedure can be ordained – “no.”
A Vatican source said the text was prepared largely by Jesuit Father Urbano Navarrete, now a retired canon law professor at Rome’s Gregorian University.
In 1997, Father Navarrete wrote an article on transsexualism in an authoritative canon law journal and has been consulted by the doctrinal congregation on specific cases involving transsexualism and hermaphroditism.
The priest, citing confidentiality rules, declined to speak on the record to Catholic News Service for this story.
The Vatican document’s specific points include:
– An analysis of the moral licitness of “sex-change” operations. It concludes that the procedure could be morally acceptable in certain extreme cases if a medical probability exists that it will “cure” the patient’s internal turmoil.
– But a source familiar with the document said recent medical evidence suggested that in a majority of cases the procedure increases the likelihood of depression and psychic disturbance.
– A provision giving religious superiors administrative authority to expel a member of the community who has undergone the procedure. In most cases of expulsion from religious life, the superior must conduct a trial."
The rest of the article deals primarily with how to deal with people in religious orders.
The Church certainly does not want a woman to “become” a man and attempt to become a priest.
The paragraph stating that “recent medical evidence suggested that in a majority of cases the procedure increases the likelihood of depression and psychic disturbance.”, is total bull!! All evidence points to the total oposite.
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aspawloski4th
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Do you find it insulting because you think gender dysphoria not to be as as bad as the disorder you mentioned , and possibly not as important? If the answer is yes, I find that insulting. Lets make a comparison here. I have been diagnosed with gender dysphoria(transsexual) and I have had 34 kidneystones in my life. One removed by operation 33 of them passed, some of those 33 remained in me 4 months before being passed. So I do know physical pain. Many of my stones were larger than the average sand grain sized stone. Now which is more painful to me the kidneystones or the gender dysphoria? The gender dysphoria hands down. By the way I’m always there to comfort friends going through kidneystones. That being said. I find it insulting that someone would want to minimize my spiritual or mental suffering because it isn’t purely physical.
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whatevergirl
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to hyflyer;
You elaborated more, but where is what I posted, in disagreement? The only part you added that I didn’t, was the Church allowing for extreme cases for surgery to be permitted, if it might ‘cure’ someone’s turmoil. Other than that, everything I posted is not in disagreement with this…
The Church’s stance is for one to not seek out surgery or hormones, unless it’s extreme.I didn’t expound as much as you, but where are we in disagreement? You actually point more to the fact that Church teaching is against transgender surgery. The Vatican’s stance is that surgery and hormone therapy doesn’t change the person’s gender. I thought my post pretty much illustrates what you posted here, and perhaps I should have posted my source. Looks like our sources share the same evidence.
You elaborated more, but where is what I posted, in disagreement? The only part you added that I didn’t, was the Church allowing for extreme cases for surgery to be permitted, if it might ‘cure’ someone’s turmoil. Other than that, everything I posted is not in disagreement with this…
The Church’s stance is for one to not seek out surgery or hormones, unless it’s extreme.I didn’t expound as much as you, but where are we in disagreement? You actually point more to the fact that Church teaching is against transgender surgery. The Vatican’s stance is that surgery and hormone therapy doesn’t change the person’s gender. I thought my post pretty much illustrates what you posted here, and perhaps I should have posted my source. Looks like our sources share the same evidence.
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Elizabeth502
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Wow, for some reason the “quote” button failed to quote, probably because it was all contained within the quote box. I’ll respond to hyflyer’s questions and implications:
Why am I here? For the same reason you are, poster: To engage in discussion and answer a question that was asked. It’s odd that you would ask such a question. You might ask such a question of the OP, who keeps asking the same question over and over.
I think my previous post reaffirmed my own Christianity, and I would caution you not to judge the authenticity of other posters’ Christianity, as well.
My position is not that transsexuals should be condemned. It is only for God to condemn anyone. Nor is it my position that transsexuals should not be accepted and loved. Please reread my post, which states that acceptance is being sought in the wrong venue, because for many repliers, they have limited experience and understanding of such non-standard personal situations and are disinclined to think outside of what has already been stated by the RCC, whether those statements are comprehensive or minimal.
If I had any extremely unusual situation like transsexualism, and felt that “my faith is the only thing that’s keeping me alive,” I wouldn’t keep going back to an anonymous message board to search for maybe the 5-10% of posters who could arguably be called sympathetic. I would hopefully recognize that I was desperately lacking in a sense of self-validation, and I would seek out the services of a compassionate Catholic psychotherapist whom I would interview before committing any money or exposing myself to possible further hurt.
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whatevergirl
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Well stated.
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pete_29
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When you watch your child live her life out of a wheelchair and watch her go through 18 surgeries in 15 years, then you can talk to me about spiritual and mental suffering.
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aspawloski4th
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I’m watching a grandmother slowly loose her once awesomely sharp mind though altzheimers, I watched a baby sister die right after birth, because she was brain stem only(supposedly). I watched a friend slowly die of Lou Gerhig’s disease. While I don’t minimize what your child is going through ,don’t minimize my situation either.
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RedGecko
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Pete, I am very sorry to hear about your child. It must be absolutely awful to watch, every day, someone you love to suffer so much.
But if a cure was available, wouldn’t you want to take advantage of it? I think this is what transsexuals seek, when they ask for surgery to correct their birth defect.
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