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aspawloski4th
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Huh??!!?
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Zoe_Brain
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It’s already pretty distant.
In Connecticut, same-sex marriage is legal. But it’s legal to fire someone just for being transsexual there. Gays are protected though,
In Massachusetts, same-sex marriage is legal. But it’s legal to fire someone just for being transsexual there. Gays are protected though,
In New Hampshire, same-sex marriage is legal. But it’s legal to fire someone just for being transsexual there. Gays are protected though,
In Iowa, same-sex marriage is legal. And it’s not legal to fire someone just for being transsexual there. It hasn’t been for months now. Gays are protected though, and have been for over a decade.
As many Gays despise transgendered people as do straights, proportionately.,
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Theresa_Frances
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Nino, I posted on this thread responding to some contributors thoughts, even though I don’t totally feel that transsexuals are dispised. As Magdelaine mentioned, I’m sorry you experineced adverse situations at your school, but I’m also responding to a few of your observations. I don’t use gender specific bathrooms as a day to day whim. When I lived as a boy I used the men’s room. When I started living as a girl, I used the women’s room. I was doing so legally since I had a carry letter from my therapist, but even more than that I would not do something like that on whim and definitely would not intrude on someone else’s privacy or dream of every upsetting a young person by presenting myself ambigously under those circumstances. I am aware there are segments of any group that possibly would, but we are all different. Some of your troubles in school you attribute to gay individuals. I definitely don’t mean to demean any one group, but transsexuals are not necessarily gay. I consider myself a heterosexual woman who was transsexual, but has addressed her gender issues. We are sometimes lumped under a general classification of sexual minorities, but I feel it is wrong to generalize in that manner, Perhaps by means of a dialogue I can help to calrify some incorrect suppositions. You also spoke of a priest who was a sexual predator. Gay individuals are not by definition sexual preitors. Transsexuals are not by necessarily gay or by definition sexual predators either. You also mentioned the establishment left labelling individuals as haters. I think it may be better to avoid classifications and absolutes when describing a person. For instance, I am, or better still was, transsexual. However, I am also a Republican, and voted for John McCain. I am prolife, never miss Mass, don’t condone premarital sex, or artificial birth control. I did make a decision to allow medical professionals to treat a condition with which I was afflicted. I didn’t do so frivilously, but after years of therapy and considering the morality of my decision. I believe it was a moral decision, although I am sure many would not agree. I don’t pretend to think I am the only person who has has experienced mental anguish, and I know there is real physical and mental suffering in the world. I do know that since I have addressed my issues I am able to be a more concerned and charitable member of society than I was before. I know its impossible in a few words to say all I want to, but hopefelly this dialogue will engender some understanding.
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Benadam
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Zoe_Brain
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I think you’re right.
Having been a victim of this persecution, and verified that it’s very real, I can’t help but be against it. OK, I’m not Gay, but so what? I claim the right not to be persecuted as a Human Being. And although I’m somewhat homophobic myself, I’m not a hypocrite. I can’t claim rights for myself without being willing to grant the same rights to others.
OK, they’re sinners. Who isn’t though? Who has the right to cast the first stone? By all means disapprove, censure, attempt to straighten out (pardon the pun), but where exactly in the Bible does it say that Christ shunned sinners, and told His followers to have nothing to do with them?
If Jews were being persecuted, I couldn’t just say “I’m not a Jew” and stay silent as others suffer. If Christians were being persecuted, I couldn’t just say “I’m not a Christian” and stay silent as others suffer. If Left-handed patagonians with red hair were being persecuted,I couldn’t just say "I’m not a red-headed Left-handed Patagonian " and stay silent there either.
I try not to bring the issue up in the context of transgendered persecution, for fear of confusing people. I think it important now though to nail my colours to the mast. That if gays deserve persecution for their sins, then so do I (even though I’m not gay) for my own sins. The world can force me to be persecuted: it cannot force me to persecute in my turn, and I will not do so.
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bullfrog654
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it reminds me of PASSION of the christ and mankind feeding on the bread and wine basically pruduced by it. still sounds like canabalistic.
second sorry to hear of you being judged before my time i guess sounds more so like mats if you ask me.
if your right hand does wrong cut it off. cave man days laws, excape those days you escape the judgement unless your fear is so great that a new judgement developes.
about your last statement oh your in for a surprise probabbly in your time years to come. feeding is naturally in space not planetary and its heading that way
revelation tells US to prepare
second sorry to hear of you being judged before my time i guess sounds more so like mats if you ask me.
if your right hand does wrong cut it off. cave man days laws, excape those days you escape the judgement unless your fear is so great that a new judgement developes.
about your last statement oh your in for a surprise probabbly in your time years to come. feeding is naturally in space not planetary and its heading that way
revelation tells US to prepare
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magdelaine
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Zoe,
I think that there is a huge gulf between “persecution” and “moral objection”. I wholeheartedly agree with you that gays should not suffer persecution. Yet I don’t think that the current form of *protection *for gays is good for liberty or the cause of justice for anyone, either. For instance, who is being persecuted in this story?
This conflation of transsex/intersex and gay can be a very volatile mix for the rest of us. As Bendamen said “because of a false collective view, transexuals suffer the publics projected supressed judgement of homosexuals.” Like I shared before, I’m pretty sensitive to these issues because of the gay “marriage” debate in my state (CA). Whereas before, if I saw a homosexual couple at the grocery I wouldn’t have batted an eye and actually would have appreciated the local color. Now, I see a couple like this as deliberately trying to tear down our society; in other words, as potential enemies. But what if these folks *weren’t *in favor of gay “marriage”? Or what if it was a couple like you and your wife, whose situation is beyond my understanding at first glance? My charity has been lacking, to say the least. I have realized that in part from the conversation we’ve had in this forum.
I think you have done an amazing job explaining your case and the plight of the intersexed and the transexed. You have won in me a convert. I’m not sure what I will do from here on out, but I know that I can not, at this point, stay silent either.
I think that there is a huge gulf between “persecution” and “moral objection”. I wholeheartedly agree with you that gays should not suffer persecution. Yet I don’t think that the current form of *protection *for gays is good for liberty or the cause of justice for anyone, either. For instance, who is being persecuted in this story?
This conflation of transsex/intersex and gay can be a very volatile mix for the rest of us. As Bendamen said “because of a false collective view, transexuals suffer the publics projected supressed judgement of homosexuals.” Like I shared before, I’m pretty sensitive to these issues because of the gay “marriage” debate in my state (CA). Whereas before, if I saw a homosexual couple at the grocery I wouldn’t have batted an eye and actually would have appreciated the local color. Now, I see a couple like this as deliberately trying to tear down our society; in other words, as potential enemies. But what if these folks *weren’t *in favor of gay “marriage”? Or what if it was a couple like you and your wife, whose situation is beyond my understanding at first glance? My charity has been lacking, to say the least. I have realized that in part from the conversation we’ve had in this forum.
I think you have done an amazing job explaining your case and the plight of the intersexed and the transexed. You have won in me a convert. I’m not sure what I will do from here on out, but I know that I can not, at this point, stay silent either.
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Benadam
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Benadam
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Benadam
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Zoe_Brain
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I had to go to the original source - the transcript (PDF)
Here we have a person who enters into a profession knowing that she cannot abide by the ethical standards of that profession. In that respect, EMU is right to say that she is unsuitable, and to offer her an alternate masters course.
If I can make an analogy, a devout Muslim man who would be unable due to his religious belief to counsel females, or Jews. would be in a similar situation.
However… the student has said that she would merely pass a client that she could not follow the ethical rules on to another counsellor. So while the student is in violation of the ethical code, in my opinion the violation is not of a sufficient severity to warrant her exclusion from the program.
Reading the transcript though, she also advocates reparative therapy, so there is some doubt as to her future commitment to her stated intent. I’m with Dr Warren Throckmorton on this one, who offers choices to people with Same Sex Attraction, while eschewing reparative therapy as not merely useless but actually harmful. Had she done the degree of research I would expect from a competent master’s student, she would have known about the theological and medical implications.
Would a Jehovah’s Witness, whose religious beliefs preclude blood transfusions, be an acceptable candidate for qualifications as a surgeon? Especially if the professional code of surgical ethics stated clearly that no surgeon should ever let their religious beliefs interfere with the scientifically determined highest standard of care?
If it were me, I would allow her to continue her studies, but endorse her qualifications to show that she is not professionally competent in a number of areas, should not be allowed to practice in those areas, and should only work under close supervision for a period of ten years. Had I been convinced that she really would rule herself out of dealing with issues where medical best practice conflicts with her religious belief, then no such endorsements would be necessary.
It’s a tough one. I do not feel the EMU handled this with sensitivity nor justice. As an academic institution that is supposed to be about counselling in such knotty issues, they failed badly in their duty towards the student. I also think it likely that prejudice played a part in their decision, and that they should have recognised that.
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magdelaine
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Oh my goodness, this problem is deeper than I thought. Thank you for finding that transcript. The idea that, according to the American Counseling Association, some semblance of a moral code on the part of the counselor is an “imposition of personal values” and is therefore unacceptable is abhorrent and ridiculous.
For instance, to take your analogy further, let’s say that a counselor has a Muslim couple as clients, and that the husband beats his wife regularly according to Sharia law. Neither the husband nor the wife see any problem with these beatings, as it is part of their culture and religious beliefs. As a counselor, you see these beatings as being a major factor in the wife’s depression. You also see that the husband is unwilling to change his behavior. If you then decide that you cannot, in good conscience, counsel this couple, you would be in violation of this code of “ethics”, which states
Christians, who understand that by their very nature that homosexual relationships are inherently disordered cannot then refuse to counsel homosexual couples who are committed to that lifestyle without violating this “code”. This is a violation of the freedom of conscience, is it not? How is this any different than forcing doctors who are ethically opposed to abortion to perform them or lose their license? Do we really want to live in a relativistic, morally “neutral” world where the only opinions tolerated are the ones that fit into the world view of those in power?
This is what happens when behavior that is morally problematical gets special legal status. This is an important distinction to make: SSA is a condition. No one should be discriminated against because of a condition! The homosexual lifestyle, on the other hand, is a behavior. It is a violation of our conscience to not be able to say “what you are doing is hurting you”. Likewise, TS/IS is a condition. There are a number of specific areas in law and civil society where TS/IS individuals need protection based on that condition, not on their behavior.
This is an extremely important distinction to make! As long as it is not made in the eyes of the public in general, TS/IS folks will be subject to the rational if misplaced reaction of religious/conservatives who see society and civil law disintegrating before their eyes because of “protected” behaviors as well as discrimination from those causing the above. You are truly caught between a rock and a hard place.
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hyflyer64
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It’s not that this person is not suitable for the counseling profession, only that she was not suitable for the program at that school. There are many christian counselors out there. Where did they get their training?? It’s obvious that she did not do her “due diligence” and picked the wrong school.
SSA is a condition which leads to homosexual behaviour. There is no “fix” for this. Are we to relegate them to a life without loving relationships?? I know many that have had long term manogamous relationships. Do we punish them for the antics of the few?? As much as I dislike it, I come under the “L” part of the “LGB” umbrela. Which, by the way, would be OK with the church’s view of us. “Truly caught between a rock and a hard place”.
Yes, and what really bothers me is something that I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. People like Zoe, myself and the thousands that mange to “pass” at least sufficiently well, can just fade into the background, if we wish, and live relatively “normal” lives. However, those that don’t are the ones that are at the greatest risk. Loosing jobs, housing, and even lives.!!
It’s all well and good that we are discussing these issues here and enlightning some people, but what are we accomplishing?? Is there anything that we can do beyond this forumn??
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Zoe_Brain
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As I’ve said before, “while a single person is drowning, how can one leave the pool?”
I just can’t abandon those whose appearance embarrasses me. There but for the Grace of God go I.
I also can’t countenance the persecution of Gays, regardless of the very real damage my views cause in my own personal situation. Morality is an absolute in that sense, not to be discarded just because it’s personally inconvenient. I’m not even tempted to, so can’t claim any great moral virtue there.
OK, Rock and a Hard Place. But worse things happen at sea, and compared to living with being TS for even 1 minute of the 47 years I endured, it’s… trivial, really. No great drama.
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aspawloski4th
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What is easy for one can be tough for another. Being transsexual has been tough on me. Being contantly trying to pretend to be male when I’m not.
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Zoe_Brain
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I’ve escaped though. Others have not. I can’t leave them behind. People like you, for example, who have not yet been freed.
One thing I can give - Hope. That bad as it is for you now, you don’t realise how bad. You only realise that when it goes away. It’s not going to be as good as you think it will be, it’s immeasurably better. And the best thing is, while other people take it for granted, we don’t. We’ve been given a gift.to appreciate just how wonderful having body and mind match is.
May your escape and transition be complete soon. Until then, hang on, it’s worth it! You’re not alone, and people care about you.
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hyflyer64
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I’m not sure where I found this but it obviously caught my attention and I had to write it down.
"GOD’s purpose for you is simply perfect. HE wants to show you things that only you can understand by living what you are living and by being in the place you are now."
All I can say is that I hope that is true and that there is a pupose to all of this because what I’m presently living and in the place I am now, is leaving quite a bit to be desired.
This is directed at those that may be lurking on the fringes of this forumn. Those who are still suffering from HBS and have families. Especially the older ones. Some of you are stronger than I am, others not so. I pray for us all!!
When I realized what had been haunting me all my life, it was like a huge weight being lifted off my back. I finally had an excuse for all the stupid things I had been doing.
But then a new problem.
Here I was, married for 38 yrs. I had a loving wife, a really nice home, a dog, two wonderful daughters ( on their own), a good job, and some friends. We went to church at a very small parish and were on the parish council. Living the American dream!!
As I looked down the road I was contemplating to travel, I realized that I stood a very good chance of loosing it all. My spouse had always been the center of our family and social life. Our lives revolved around her. Well, at least mine did. I started to realize that every single relationship I had, was going to change, one way or the other.
I kept telling myself that I could stop at any time. (NOT!) I also believed that love would hold my marriage together. Every step I took was weighed and I cried because I could see it taking me further and further away from her. Tearing apart all we had built over the years.
Four years later, I was alone when I confirmed my surgical appointment. I was ecstatic. :extrahappy:
Then the enormity of what I was doing struck me and I realized that this could be the the “last nail in the coffin”. I cried for hours…
As much as I hoped and prayed, I think, deep down, I knew how it was going to turn out and I thought I was going to be strong enough. I wasn’t!!
At age 63, I found myself alone. No home, no one to share my life with, trying to build a whole new life.
I had no idea how much I had depended on her. She was my rock, my reason for being.
We had talked of growing old together and taking care of each other…
Thanks to HIM, some friends and prozac(
), I’m still here.
I’ve heard that 9 out of 10 marriages do not survive the ravages of HBS. I think the odds may be even higher. The only ones that I personnaly know, that are still together, have children.
I would not wish this on any one. For some of us, the cost is hideous. The pain we cause, the loss involved …
Am I sorry that I undertook this journey??
I’m sorry that I HAD to!! However, there is no denying that I am Rachel. I am who and what I was meant to be. I only wish that I had come to that realization at a much younger age!!
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RedGecko
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Wow, Rachel, that is both beautiful and profoundly encouraging. I really needed that encouragement. Thank you for sharing it with us.
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Nino
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You use the term…‘straight’ men just what does that mean…that since I am only turned on by women…( I dont see my mommy’s image in them) I am straight…and those who are otherwise…are what…'crooked" I suppose…mmmmmm…frankly who cares where this or not organ goes…as in a bus driver who shoots it up all weekend and then drives my child to school on monday morning still stoned…gee maybe I had better care about his/her lifestyle…and of disease, I pity anyone who gets a serious deadly painful disease…so many of us either get them ourselves or lose luved ones to them…still the immense expense of Aids and Hiv is kinda out of control…I do not believe in taxpayer monies to pay the expenses for some jerk who went ot a prositute and caught syph or Vd.either.a behavorial disease should not be glamorized in any way …oh oh…a knock on the door,thought police again?..lets hide behind this statue of the crucified One and see…
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hyflyer64
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Nino,
I’m wondering if maybe you could just reference a post “number”. That way it would make it easier to understand your comments. At least for me. I’m a little dense at times.
As for “straight” vs “crooked” … well I think that most folks would identify “crooked” with someone that is dishonest. So that wont work well.
I’m in total agreement with you in that a “behavioral desease” should not be glamorized and in reference to HIV, I don’t see where it has been.
Unfortunately, it is something that extends beyond the gay community and a new born child should not be made to pay for the stupidity of it’s parents. If left unchecked, one can only imagine the consequences for all of mankind.On this day especially, we have to ask ourselves this question; " What Would Jesus Do?".
God bless and Happy Easter
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