Transsexualism, why is it so dispised

[aspawloski4th]

Mark,
First off, most of your questions/opinions are extreemly well covered by Zoe.
Secondly, if you do read Zoe’s posts, you will see overwelming evidence that points to the fact that we are in fact born this way. It is not just something that we say and it is NOT a psychological disorder.
“Pedophilia (or paedophilia) is defined as a psychological disorder in which an adult experiences a sexual preference for prepubescent children.”

Also to add to that The reason why we consider pedophelia immoral is it is violating the rights of the child being molested, cheating them out of childhood, robbing virginity, and it can be a quite violent act on the child. So therefore it is not comparable to transsexuaism. If I change my sex, the only one Im violating is my self if you want to call it a violation so bad. I vctimless crime so to say. As long as Im not directly hrting anyone it is my body. I decide whats good for me with the help of who I choose. The one who you are responding to says fix the brain which is impossible, instead fix the body which is highly possbile.

 

[hyflyer64]

I don’t think the issue is whether you chose it or are born with it–that has little bearing on whether something is right or wrong.

One other thing Mark, how could something that you are born with be “wrong”???
Transsexualism, or better, HBS ( Harry Benjamin Syndrome ) is a condition that has an excellent success rate when treated medically. I know, I no longer have the condition!!

Rachel

 

[Dale_M]

Yes, it is true that many people, like me, have a lot of misconceptions. But if you allow that to embitter you, then you will not be helping the situation.

IMHO you make a very important point. I am thinking of a couple cases where someone was falsely convicted of a crime and spent a couple decades (or more) in prison - from the time they were young men all the way into middle age. It would be very easy to be bitter about so much of one’s life being taken away, for what turned out to be an injustice. But bitterness is a bottomless pit which takes and takes and never is filled. It can easily suck all of the little happiness we are given. Hope, and trust in God, is what will deliver us.

It takes time. God sends us crosses to bear, each of us has them, and He also sends grace to help us with them. Use this time to get closer to Him and be more at peace. Thank Him that you are living now rather than a century ago.

Yes, modern medicine provides alternatives to alcohol and suicide. Gaining the resources to pay for surgery is often difficult, but at least the possibility exists. And even though some individuals are unaccepting of transsexuals, many are. Again, this probably wouldn’t have been true of 100 years ago. Sometimes we need to count our blessings, and thank God for them. Things always can be worse than they are.

 

[Dale_M]

Do any come to terms with who and what they are and decide to bear the suffering? Is that person not also “lucky”?

I think some transsexuals do end up not transitioning, due to poor finances, bad health or family considerations. I think they live a life of suffering. Why do you think they are lucky?

 

[aspawloski4th]

I think some transsexuals do end up not transitioning, due to poor finances, bad health or family considerations. I think they live a life of suffering. Why do you think they are lucky?

It’s the old survival for the pure sake of survival bit. To me I value how I live my life and what I do with it, I don’t value mere existance. Survival for the sake of survival is animalistic and beneith human beings! Along with faith good works are required to get into Heaven, being a bump on a log doesn’t cut it.

 

[melissa1980]

MarkInOregon merely perpetuates a line of speech based on “grin and bear it” philosophy. While the OP sought to understand why transsexualism is so despised, MarkInOregon underscores a belief medical responses to transsexualism are despised based upon the rationale that being born with a condition lends no legitimacy to medical approaches to its resolution. The MarkInOregon question becomes whether brain study might yield a means to “cure the brain,” effectively, discarding the person for societal comfort. I was one who was subjected to the round robin of archaic psychiatric/counseling/religious/medical means to “correct” my mindview of self all to no effect. Oh sure, the various therapies employed produced agony to my person and those among whom I moved remained comfortable unknowing quiescent while leaving unchanged my transsexual brain orientation; but after all, am I not “lucky?” I cannot “come to terms” with constantly being referred to by the wrong pronouns, left to the wrong gender, out of step with self and so “bear the suffering.” Fundamentally, I am. Were there to come into being some brain surgical technique hailed as the means to “cure” those who are transsexed, I have my great doubts whether the “I” making up my essence would remain after being subjected to such a “cure” and fear that “I” might in such a construct merely cease to exist, replaced by another more socially pleasing being. I cannot fathom the means to “cure” one’s being. The studies cited voluminously by Zoe in this thread speak to the very “medical study” question raised by MarkInOregon. Perhaps Mark should, if willing, take time to read.

I prefer to feel blessed rather than think in terms of luck. I feel blessed to be able to participate in a forum such as this, blessed to be surrounded by caring family and friends, and blessed to exist in a moment of history when medicine and therapeutic helps are both ferreting out the why of our rare predicament while presenting a means to effect at long last congruence of mind and body. I feel we who are diagnosed transsexed or intersexed keep good company as people of sorrows despised among men.

 

[St_Francis]

I don’t think the issue is whether you chose it or are born with it–that has little bearing on whether something is right or wrong. Exampleand this example in no way is meant to speak to the issue of TS or to equate it with the example–the example simply illustrates that being born with something doesn’t make it right or give it moral ligitamacy) Many Pedophiles will tell you they don’t chose to be attracted to children–they can’t help it–they were born that way. Now even if they were born that way–that would not make pedophilia right. (though I am sure someday as our society “progresses” someone will try to advance that argument)

There is a difference between being “born with” (if one is indeed born with it) pedophilia and being “born with” what Zoe is describing. Acting on one’s pedophilic tendencies is very sinful! But acting on one’s disconnect between brain and body is not sinful if the condition truly exists, because it involves medical procedures which would be different from bodily mutilation, which the Church does condemn.

It would seem it would be more fruitful to study the nature of TS - is this a brain problem–where we should seek to cure the brain or is it a body defect (like being born with a cleft palate) that we should try to repair? I have no idea. A follow-up question would be – if it turns out to be a brain problem–one that cannot yet be corrected (say like autism) is it o.k to attempt to mitigate the problems caused by the brain problem by altering the body? Again I don’t know.

We are constantly trying to fix “brain problems” with physical means; hence medication for all sorts of “brain problems” problems such as ADD, depression, schizophrenia, etc. The brain is part of our body and is physical.

The difference I think you are searching for is the difference between physical and psychological problems, and we have already seen that some problems which used to be considered primarily psychological are actually physical, altho they all manifest in the brain.

 

[aspawloski4th]

There is a difference between being “born with” (if one is indeed born with it) pedophilia and being “born with” what Zoe is describing. Acting on one’s pedophilic tendencies is very sinful! But acting on one’s disconnect between brain and body is not sinful if the condition truly exists, because it involves medical procedures which would be different from bodily mutilation, which the Church does condemn.

We are constantly trying to fix “brain problems” with physical means; hence medication for all sorts of “brain problems” problems such as ADD, depression, schizophrenia, etc. The brain is part of our body and is physical.

The difference I think you are searching for is the difference between physical and psychological problems, and we have already seen that some problems which used to be considered primarily psychological are actually physical, altho they all manifest in the brain.

I think the reason why the brain is treated differently in speach from the rest of the body, is it’s the most important part of a hum’s body in relation to being a human being. The way our brain works and functions is what separates us from other animals. The brain actlike another demension in the humanbeing. All that humans do better and in a different way from other animals is only made possible by the brain.

 

[MarkInOregon]

MarkInOregon merely perpetuates a line of speech based on “grin and bear it” philosophy. I don’t think I did that. I think you’re reading into what I wrote. I don’t think I suggested anyone that people should just grin and bear it. While the OP sought to understand why transsexualism is so despised, MarkInOregon underscores a belief medical responses to transsexualism are despised based upon the rationale that being born with a condition lends no legitimacy to medical approaches to its resolution. Again I really don’t think thats what I said or did. I simply said being born a particular way has little bearing on making something correct–thats a far cry from saying anything about medical treatment. I have no problem with medical responses to treating conditions we are born with. I have no idea from reading what I wrote how you could think that. I asked what kind of problem it was–as that would determine the type of treatment. Certainly thats not suggesting medical treatment has no legitimacy is it? And I made no judgment and offered no opinion on which type of problem it was–brain or body–I am not qualified to do that.
The MarkInOregon question becomes whether brain study might yield a means to “cure the brain,” effectively, discarding the person for societal comfort. I am not really concerned with “societal comfort” I am concerned with whats right and whats wrong–and not by yours, mine or societies ideas–but by Gods. I would be concerned with discovering the true nature of the problem and fixing that–whatever it might be. If it is a “brain/mental” problem I see no reason why anyone should object to an attempt to fix that. However, if it is not a brain/mental problem–and instead the brain in a perfectly normal brain-- say a “female” brain that was put into a male body–then I see no problem correcting the body.
To address your “disgarding the person” crack–I am not really interested in papering over a problem–to make someone feel good about themselves nor to make society comfortable. If the truth makes either the person or society uncomfortable thats fine with me. I would say that if we paper over a problem–and don’t get to the true nature of the problem and try to fix that–then thats disgarding the person.
I was one who was subjected to the round robin of archaic psychiatric/counseling/religious/medical means to “correct” my mindview of self all to no effect. Oh sure, the various therapies employed produced agony to my person and those among whom I moved remained comfortable unknowing quiescent while leaving unchanged my transsexual brain orientation; but after all, am I not “lucky?” I cannot “come to terms” with constantly being referred to by the wrong pronouns, left to the wrong gender, out of step with self and so “bear the suffering.” Fundamentally, I am. Were there to come into being some brain surgical technique hailed as the means to “cure” those who are transsexed, I have my great doubts whether the “I” making up my essence would remain after being subjected to such a “cure” and fear that “I” might in such a construct merely cease to exist, replaced by another more socially pleasing being. I cannot fathom the means to “cure” one’s being. The studies cited voluminously by Zoe in this thread speak to the very “medical study” question raised by MarkInOregon. Perhaps Mark should, if willing, take time to read.I have read most of the posts–and it seems that a case has been made by posters such as Zoe for your position. I have not read nor reviewed all the medical literature. I don’t know the full scope and depth of the literature (nor do I know if the posters have provided that)–and consequently I have no opinion on what the root cause is. For all I know–it could vary from person to person. Is the science here settled? or is it still being studied?
I would ask this–if there really was an identifiable brain problem–then is what you are experiencing really “your being” or something else? I think you envision that people want you to have some kind of lobotomy type procedure to “cure” you and make you “acceptable” for society–that however would be morally reprehensible and not a treatment or cure at all but rather a mutilation.
I would hope that what people on this forum want for you – is whatever will get you into heaven - whether or not that brings you happiness in this life. If they desire anything else for you then they do not have your best interest at heart.
You have made up your mind where the problem lies–I pray you are correct–and that your suffering and the suffering of others, in similar situations, may be alieviated with the surety that nothing gravely sinful has been done.

I prefer to feel blessed rather than think in terms of luck. I feel blessed to be able to participate in a forum such as this, blessed to be surrounded by caring family and friends, and blessed to exist in a moment of history when medicine and therapeutic helps are both ferreting out the why of our rare predicament while presenting a means to effect at long last congruence of mind and body. I feel we who are diagnosed transsexed or intersexed keep good company as people of sorrows despised among men.

I am happy you feel blessed. Lucky was the word used by the poster I was responding to-- I simply asked if anyone–in the same situation–who comes to a different conclusion and decision–is not also lucky. A peace can come from a decision that we feel is correct.
You seemed to read a lot into my post–most of what you saw–I don’t think was there.

Peace

 

[aspawloski4th]

I am happy you feel blessed. Lucky was the word used by the poster I was responding to-- I simply asked if anyone–in the same situation–who comes to a different conclusion and decision–is not also lucky. A peace can come from a decision that we feel is correct.
You seemed to read a lot into my post–most of what you saw–I don’t think was there.

Peace

Ok if you didn’t say grin and bear it! Tell us in very specific terms that leave nothing to the imagination what to do then! Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[melissa1980]

I am happy you feel blessed. Lucky was the word used by the poster I was responding to-- I simply asked if anyone–in the same situation–who comes to a different conclusion and decision–is not also lucky. A peace can come from a decision that we feel is correct.
You seemed to read a lot into my post–most of what you saw–I don’t think was there.

Peace

Thank you, MarkInOregon, your post was written as a charitable response to mine. For your grace in writing I am grateful. Perhaps we will each continue to learn in time. You do make a point with which I truly agree; namely, that gaining eternity with the Father is of utmost importance.

Peace be unto you as well,
Melissa

 

[aspawloski4th]

Thank you, MarkInOregon, your post was written as a charitable response to mine. For your grace in writing I am grateful. Perhaps we will each continue to learn in time. You do make a point with which I truly agree; namely, that gaining eternity with the Father is of utmost importance.

Peace be unto you as well,
Melissa

In light of that If I went over it in my mind , If I stay living as a male for the lrest of my life, I can come up with a chain of events and decisions for a scenario that even George Carlin can behold that would cause me to go to H-ll. Where as if I transition that chain of stuff wouldn’t happen and I’d have a better chance at Heaven. It isn’t as simple as many would like it to be.

 

[St_Francis]

In light of that If I went over it in my mind , If I stay living as a male for the lrest of my life, I can come up with a chain of events and decisions for a scenario that even George Carlin can behold that would cause me to go to H-ll. Where as if I transition that chain of stuff wouldn’t happen and I’d have a better chance at Heaven. It isn’t as simple as many would like it to be.

You seem to be saying that if you are not able to transition that you will be forced to sin. No one is forced to sin! We are tempted, it is true…

For some reason, I think about that actor who played Superman from time to time. Remember him? He had a horseback accident which left him paralyzed from the neck down? And he probably did not like that. He probably felt that it wasn’t really him, that his thoughts about himself didn’t match his body… It probably wasn’t easy for him to accept that he needed *every single thing *done for him.

Your situation is not at all easy, but God sends us crosses for a reason. He sends them to us to draw us closer to Him. He wants us to show forth His glory to the world, to be the lanterns for His light. If you stick close to Him, you will still be tempted, but He will send you the grace that you need to resist that temptation. He does not require perfection (He did after all give us the sacrament of Confession) but He does want us to keep on trying, to keep on picking ourselves back up after we fall, and we can only do that if we keep leaning on Him, asking HIm for the help we need.

 

[melissa1980]

You seem to be saying that if you are not able to transition that you will be forced to sin. No one is forced to sin! We are tempted, it is true…

For some reason, I think about that actor who played Superman from time to time. Remember him? He had a horseback accident which left him paralyzed from the neck down? And he probably did not like that. He probably felt that it wasn’t really him, that his thoughts about himself didn’t match his body… It probably wasn’t easy for him to accept that he needed *every single thing *done for him.

Your situation is not at all easy, but God sends us crosses for a reason. He sends them to us to draw us closer to Him. He wants us to show forth His glory to the world, to be the lanterns for His light. If you stick close to Him, you will still be tempted, but He will send you the grace that you need to resist that temptation. He does not require perfection (He did after all give us the sacrament of Confession) but He does want us to keep on trying, to keep on picking ourselves back up after we fall, and we can only do that if we keep leaning on Him, asking HIm for the help we need.

A foundational truth is that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, a watchword by which I found myself engaging in self deprecation during earlier times when I was engaged in the religious/psycotherapeutic/psychiatric approaches to being transsexed; namely, that my brain view was itself sin. The more I have read, the more medicine has advanced in its understanding, the less I have found this self view as being sin based and more in appreciation that perhaps among the miraculous is a dawning appreciation we are fashioned this way and that current standards based helps are not really among the sinful, but a means to aid those who come into corporeal existence divided between brain and the balance of the body. True, it is not recorded that Jesus knelt and brought healing to one such as us, and yet inquiring minds continue to bring advances of understanding to the medical sciences. I find that my existence is a continual leaning on Him and asking Him for the help I need to finish each day well depending on Him to help pick me up at each falter.

Melissa

 

[MarkInOregon]

Ok if you didn’t say grin and bear it! Tell us in very specific terms that leave nothing to the imagination what to do then! Inquiring minds want to know.

I am sorry - its not for me to tell you what to do. Its not even possible for me to tell you that anything you do is right or wrong. I don’t think there is a clear answer in this area yet. And ultimately that will be between you and God. Many that have posted–I think–believe the answer is clear. And its not for me to tell them it is or is not - that would be for scientists and researchers who specialize in this area.

And really – I don’t see anything in the post that resembled telling anyone to grin and bear it. I don’t think I told anyone to do anything or presumed to have any answers.

Peace

 

[MarkInOregon]

I think some transsexuals do end up not transitioning, due to poor finances, bad health or family considerations. I think they live a life of suffering. Why do you think they are lucky?

I was asking if the person who comes to a different conclusion, than the poster I was responding to, could not also be considered lucky (the poster I was responding to’s word). It was a question–not a statement of opinion that someone afflicted with suffering was lucky.
That said–someone coming to a decision, a decision they believe to be the true and correct course–will find a type of peace even in their suffering–and that is “lucky” if you want to call it that. It is far better than living in the state of indecision, of not knowing what is the right or wrong thing to do–which adds another layer to the suffering.

Of course one could always look to suffering here = less time in purgatory. So while I prefer not to suffer here – it may well be that if I am lucky enough to get to purgatory --I will wish I had suffered more here on earth.

Peace

 

[melissa1980]

In light of that If I went over it in my mind , If I stay living as a male for the lrest of my life, I can come up with a chain of events and decisions for a scenario that even George Carlin can behold that would cause me to go to H-ll. Where as if I transition that chain of stuff wouldn’t happen and I’d have a better chance at Heaven. It isn’t as simple as many would like it to be.

Aspawloski4th I feel a bit confused by your post. My response to MarkInOregon was an expression of thankfulness for what I perceived a charitable rebuttal. You have learned from my post that I hold gaining eternity with the Father as a higher importance than my personal approach to resolution of my brain/balance of body conflict. Such is my faith issue, not yours. It bears not one whit upon your personal walk through transition, a walk I understand presently on hold due to circumstances beyond your control, and I hope for you that you can regain your footing so you may renew your solution. My hope is that through posts in threads such as this one started by you on CAF people might eventually approach the intersexed and transsexed charitably and that we will not be despised or marginalized merely because of what or who we are. Further, I understand none of this is simple.

Melissa

 

[aspawloski4th]

Aspawloski4th I feel a bit confused by your post. My response to MarkInOregon was an expression of thankfulness for what I perceived a charitable rebuttal. You have learned from my post that I hold gaining eternity with the Father as a higher importance than my personal approach to resolution of my brain/balance of body conflict. Such is my faith issue, not yours. It bears not one whit upon your personal walk through transition, a walk I understand presently on hold due to circumstances beyond your control, and I hope for you that you can regain your footing so you may renew your solution. My hope is that through posts in threads such as this one started by you on CAF people might eventually approach the intersexed and transsexed charitably and that we will not be despised or marginalized merely because of what or who we are. Further, I understand none of this is simple.

Melissa

In otherowrds if not allowed to transseition I’d be a less well adjusted person more llliable to to bad things. Where if I am allowed to transition I’m mre likely to do good things. Please don’t stop your selff from reading between the lines also.

 

[aspawloski4th]

I am sorry - its not for me to tell you what to do. Its not even possible for me to tell you that anything you do is right or wrong. I don’t think there is a clear answer in this area yet. And ultimately that will be between you and God. Many that have posted–I think–believe the answer is clear. And its not for me to tell them it is or is not - that would be for scientists and researchers who specialize in this area.

And really – I don’t see anything in the post that resembled telling anyone to grin and bear it. I don’t think I told anyone to do anything or presumed to have any answers.

Peace

Whoa! when you tell people what NOT to do(which is what you are doing) you have to come up with something in it’s place. So to be intellectually honest and ethical you either have to recant all the bad things you said about us or, come up with a specific leave nothing to the imaginatio sugestion on what we should do. You can’t have it both ways.

 

[A_R_Smith]

Hun, (forgive me that familiarity, I feel that I’m old enough to use it ) where do you get what sounds like an official position on this subject, regarding Catholic Churches stance on hormones and surgery??? People are going to read your statements and say “SEE, I knew it, the church is against this”. Please do your homework before you state things like that.

I qoute what I think are the pertinent points of an article;

Vatican says ‘sex-change’ operation does not change person’s gender
By John Norton Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) – After years of study, the Vatican’s doctrinal congregation has sent church leaders a confidential document concluding that “sex-change” procedures do not change a person’s gender in the eyes of the church.

Consequently, the document instructs bishops never to alter the sex listed in parish baptismal records and says Catholics who have undergone “sex-change” procedures are not eligible to marry, be ordained to the priesthood or enter religious life, according to a
source familiar with the text.:.

So, I guess this means I’ll never get to marry in the Church, even though I’m firmly intending to keep my female reproductive organs so I can have kids when I marry the man God intends to be my spouse one day… :confused

Well this is upsetting to say the least. I am not a mistake or a freak…I love the Church and all I want is to be a good Catholic.