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blaskoman
Guest
At what point during the Eucharistic prayers does Transsubstantiation actually occur? thx
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Deacon_Ed
Guest
In the Eastern tradition there is no “point” where this is defined to happen, it’s simply during the Anaphora or Eucharistic Prayer. In the current teachings of the Latin Church the “point” at which transubstantiation takes place is no longer as firmly defined as it once seemed to be. The Catechism of the Catholic Church tells us “The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist.” (1377) The “moment of consecration” is not defined. In the past it was taught that this moment was when the priest said “This is my body” and “This is my blood” but the Church does not hold to that restricted view today holding more closely to the Eastern view.
Deacon Ed
Deacon Ed
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uwwhitewater84
Guest
I believe it is when the priest says the words “this is my body…” and “this is my blood…”.
If I’m wrong, someone please correct my ignorance
If I’m wrong, someone please correct my ignorance
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bpbasilphx
Guest
To me this is like asking which clause of the Lord’s Prayer is the most important.
In the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, both the Words of Institution and Epiclesis must be said.
In at least three of the Latin anaphorae, the Epiclesis comes first.
In both liturgical tradtitions, they are parts of the same prayer.
In the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, both the Words of Institution and Epiclesis must be said.
In at least three of the Latin anaphorae, the Epiclesis comes first.
In both liturgical tradtitions, they are parts of the same prayer.
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Chaldean_Rite
Guest
In the Latin Rite, the Spirit comes down before the Words:
In various Eastern Rites, the Sprit comes down after the Words.
Certainly, it must be after both of these. There must be a point we can declare the host to be transsubstantiated, otherwise you may be adoring bread and wine, which is idolotry.
In various Eastern Rites, the Sprit comes down after the Words.
Certainly, it must be after both of these. There must be a point we can declare the host to be transsubstantiated, otherwise you may be adoring bread and wine, which is idolotry.
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tulsacubfan
Guest
This is what I have always thoughtI believe it is when the priest says the words “this is my body…” and “this is my blood…”.
If I’m wrong, someone please correct my ignorance
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DixitDominus
Guest
In the Mass of the ordinary form of the Roman Rite, at the words “ACCÍPITE ET MANDUCÁTE EX HOC OMNES: HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM, QUOD PRO VOBIS TRADÉTUR.” the bread is changed into the Body of Christ, and at the words “ACCÍPITE ET BÍBITE EX EO OMNES: HIC EST ENIM CALIX SÁNGUINIS MEI NOVI ET AETÉRNI TESTAMÉNTI, QUI PRO VOBIS ET PRO MULTIS EFFUNDÉTUR IN REMISSIÓNEM PECCATÓRUM. HOC FÁCITE IN MEAM COMMEMORATIÓNEM.” the wine is changed into His Blood.
In the Mass of the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite, at the words “HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM.” the bread is changed into Christ’s Body, and at the words “HIC EST ENIM CALIX SÁNGUINIS MEI, NOVI ET ÆTÉRNI TESTAMÉNTI: MYSTÉRIUM FIDEI: QUI PRO VOBIS ET PRO MULTIS EFFUNDÉTUR IN REMISSIÓNEM PECCATÓRUM.” the wine is changed into His Blood.
This doctrine was taught by the Council of Trent (D 876): "mmediately after the consecration the true body of our Lord and His true blood together with His soul and divinity exist under the species of bread and wine…"
In the Mass of the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite, at the words “HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM.” the bread is changed into Christ’s Body, and at the words “HIC EST ENIM CALIX SÁNGUINIS MEI, NOVI ET ÆTÉRNI TESTAMÉNTI: MYSTÉRIUM FIDEI: QUI PRO VOBIS ET PRO MULTIS EFFUNDÉTUR IN REMISSIÓNEM PECCATÓRUM.” the wine is changed into His Blood.
This doctrine was taught by the Council of Trent (D 876): "mmediately after the consecration the true body of our Lord and His true blood together with His soul and divinity exist under the species of bread and wine…"
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benedictgal
Guest
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peary
Guest
I was told it is completed when the whole congregation together with the priest intones "Christ has died; Christ is risen; Christ will come again."
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benedictgal
Guest
No. That is not true. What Dixit Dominus wrote is correct.That would make the consecratoin contingent on the congregation and that is not correct.
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Corki
Guest
Sorry, that made me laugh. That particular prayer isn’t even in the Mass universal. It was added to the English translation and is supposed to be dropped when the new translation is published and promulgated. If that’s where the Eucharist is completed, people all over the world wouldn’t ever have the Real Presence.
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peary
Guest
OK. I’ll concede that it is completed officially at the GREAT AMEN. Agreed?Sorry, that made me laugh. That particular prayer isn’t even in the Mass universal. It was added to the English translation and is supposed to be dropped when the new translation is published and promulgated. If that’s where the Eucharist is completed, people all over the world wouldn’t ever have the Real Presence.
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benedictgal
Guest
No. You need to re-read Dixit’s post. Furthermore, at the Great Amen, the priest is lifting up the Sacred Species and offering Our Lord to the Father. The transubstantiation has already taken place at the moment the priest utters the words: “This is my Body…This is my Blood.” He also genuflects after the consecration of each species. If transubstantiation hadn’t occured at that point, why, pray tell, would he be genuflecting? Think about it.
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DixitDominus
Guest
No. The rubrics of the 2002 Missal state that, after saying the Words, “ACCÍPITE ET MANDUCÁTE EX HOC OMNES: HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM, QUOD PRO VOBIS TRADÉTUR.” that is “TAKE AND EAT OF THIS, ALL, FOR THIS IS MY BODY, WHICH WILL FOR YOU WILL BE HANDED OVER.” (yes, I know, a hyperliteral translation) the priest “Hostiam consecratam ostendit populo, reponit super patenam, et genuflexus adorat.” that is “Shows the consecrated Host to the people, replaces It upon the paten, genulfecting adores It.”
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peary
Guest
It would be quite helpful to many of us if Dixit would be kind enough to translate the Latin into English.
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benedictgal
Guest
If you were to have carefully read Dixit’s post, you would have found that Dixit did, in fact, translate it:
Incidentally, the same also applies to the Precious Blood. The priest shows the chalice to the people, replaces it on the altar, and then, genuflecting, adores it. At this point, Jesus is present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. If he weren’t, peary, why would the priest adore the bread and wine, if we held to your line of thinking?
He’s not adoring bread and wine. He is adoring the living God.
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peary
Guest
**Would you please tell me why you are on my case all of a sudden? What gives with THAT?
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benedictgal
Guest
No one is getting on your case. You were the one who came up with incorrect notions. I was trying to correct you in fraternal charity. That is not getting on someone’s case.**Would you please tell me why you are on my case all of a sudden? What gives with THAT?
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peary
Guest
Well, your idea of fraternal charity is not the same as my idea of fraternal charity, although I can be somewhat harsh too. Granted.No one is getting on your case. You were the one who came up with incorrect notions. I was trying to correct you in fraternal charity. That is not getting on someone’s case.
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