P
Pax
Guest
Many great posts…I particularly liked this explanation of the dispensation from certain requirements of the OT law. This is a good analogy for shedding light on this important fact.
- Status
M
maryj
Guest
Excellent!!Also, the Gospel further brought out for me the fact that Jesus’ first temptation was to satisfy his hunger by turning rocks into bread. Jesus’ reply was also bringing me back to the topic of this thread - “One does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes forth from the mouth of God”. It isn’t “bread alone” that is presented at Mass - it is the Word made flesh.
J
JReducation
Guest
I believe it’s simpler than God changing his mind. The answer lies in religious anthropology. God reveals himself to all people. This is why we find traces of his law in Buddhism, Hinduism, Shinto and even prehistoric religious practices. These people did have a sense of right and wrong. They had a sense of the transcendent. However, of all the nations of the world Israel emerges as the first monotheistic society.
The term chosen has two nuances. They have been graced with the fullness of God’s self-disclosure as the ONE GOD. Also, as the first people to come into communion with the one God, they are also chosen to be the progenitors of God’s firstborn son. Primacy is the operative term here. They were the first to acknowledge the one true God. In justice, it is fair that God’s firstborn son be one of them. The covenant was made with Israel. But there is nothing in the covenant that says it cannot include others who worship the one true God. Obviously, those who adopted the faith of Israel become children by adoption. Paul speaks to this in several of his letters. He is speaking very literally. It’s like becoming a nationalized Jew, because you enter into the covenant. Thus the gentiles are welcome into the Christian community, because Paul realizes that the covenant is not a blood line, but an alliance. People can belong to the bloodline and be out of compliance with the alliance.
Be careful. This is a slippery slope. The Semitic metaphor of the tree of life represents good and evil. In the NT the elements for the Eucharist are wheat and wine. The only tree involved is the cross. We are not invited to eat of the cross. We are invited to consume the body and blood of the one who is hung on the tree. If you want to, you can look at it as irony. Sin enters into the world when man feeds off of the tree of good and evil. Sin is also conquered by the one who gives his life on the tree. But Jesus is not the fruit of the tree. Just as Adam climbed the tree to his own demise, the new Adam climbs the tree to restore order. But the food that is offered to us by the new Adam is not from the tree, it is himself.
The term “suffering” comes from the ancient word “suffrage.” To suffrage is to cast your vote. While Christ’s suffering and death is perfect, complete and nothing improve on it, there is one more thing that is necessary for salvation, free will. Christ can’t save us against our will. We must come voluntarily. This is why Christ sets up the sacraments, the Church, the beatitudes and sends the Apostles to preach. Man has to cast his vote with Christ. There has to be more than saying “amen.” We have to put our money where our mouth is.
Suffering then is not the wilful imposition of pain on others or the tolerance of abuse on the part of others. Christian suffering was best defined by St. Benedict, St. Francis, St. Teresa of Avila, Mother Teresa and John Paul II.
Benedict calls it the conversion of manners. We have to change and change can be painful, but necessary.
Francis calls it poverty. We have to give up that which is in the way of becoming more like the obedient and crucified Christ. Letting go of possessions, ideologies, and our preconceived notions of what the world is what it owes us is also painful.
Teresa of Avila calls it detachment. Everything that stands in the way between the union of the soul and Christ must be sacrificed. This kind of asceticism is not easy.
Mother Teresa calls it service. Serving Christ in the person of those whom society does not envy and whom society rejects is contrary to our image of Christ. We like to see Christ as beautiful and glorious. We forget that he was bloody and thirsty.
John Paul II calls it humility. We have a responsibility to deal with the curve balls that life throws at us, be they illness, economic difficulties, or other forms of suffering. We cannot take a pass, becasue Jesus did not take a pass. He asked for one in the garden, but was denied.
The great mystics understood this. They often inflicted severe penances on themselves, including physical harm, but they did not believe that they were adding anything to the cross. They were casting their lot with Christ crucified. Hence, suffrage.
C
Catholic_Author
Guest
JR, it seems to me that you and CFLJ are saying the same thing. (See where I emphasiezed both your points in your quotes above with bold.) I don’t see where the caution is warranted.
You explanation of suffrage as casting your lot with Christ makes perfect sense. Do you think the prayer that Tobit and Sarah worked at the three days prior to consummating their marriage qualifies as suffrage/casting your lot with Christ since Raphael present the record of it before the Glory of the Lord?
*"I will now tell you the whole truth; I will conceal nothing at all from you. I have already said to you, ‘A king’s secret it is prudent to keep, but the works of God are to be made known with due honor.’
I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented and read the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord; and I did the same thing when you used to bury the dead. ~Tobit 11:11,12 *
This is the concept I was making effort toward when I pointed out that our time, this Christian era with the Eucharist, is like the three days that Tobit and Sarah spent in prayer. What do you think?
J
JReducation
Guest
I believe it is. What is prayer? If you read the mystics, it’s a step toward union with God. The same meaning as suffrage.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Thanks for all your insight JR - its been a breath of fresh air - really.
I am currently in another forum debating against hard-core protestant doctrine concerning “salvation without works” (protestantism) vs. “salvation with works” (Catholicism). It is so so hard to get through the shroud of personal interpretation that is based on pure literal word constructs taken apart from the benefit of traditional insight and revelation. You might want to wander over and give some insight (What is works salvation). I attempt to make the case for the Catholic perspective of salvation being a responsive act of free will that requires us making the cooperative choice to walk daily with Christ just as the Jews did in making the choice to walk the long and hard walk to the Promised Land. I assert that the Jews did not simply declare themselves “free” and remain in the Kingdom of Egypt knowing they were “saved”. They elected to embrace their freedom by making the hard journey. They did the cooperative labor by voting with their feet to occupy and claim their freedom. The OT was salvation by suffrage and through faith in God together with being called out of Egypt by God as His People that set in motion The Kingdom on earth.
I am not blessed to be called to suffer too much in this world. Those that suffer much gain so much more in God’s Kingdom - hence why I call it a blessing. I thank God though for so far not testing me beyond what I can deliver or personally bear. The worst God has given me is the loss of my spouse to leave me widowed early in life. That hurts more than I could have imagined I’d have been able to bear (especially seeing how she suffered and how she selflessly and joyfully embraced what God has sent her as her salvific suffrage). But my personal suffering has been nothing more and often much less than what God has asked anyone else on the planet to suffer in this life.
I count myself very blessed that God opened my eyes to the fact that the world is not “fair” and we are not here to expect fairness but to accept in gratitude that we even have the gift of life and an opportunity to participate in eternal life by suffering a little now for God. That is more than fair - that is profound love. God does not need a single one of us.
I get a sense of humility in recollecting how a lot of our early saints were tortured in the most hideous ways by God’s enemies as a joyful suffrage for God. God’s Kingdom on earth is built from more than the straw-clay of Pharaoh’s Kingdom. It is built on the living blood and faith of The Church’s Saints. That’s a mortar and moral fiber that will never fail. I can’t ever hope to be as strong as the saints or to be able to suffer that level of pain for God. So I elect to pray every day as much as I can to add what mites of prayer as I can as small acts of private suffrage. Still I wonder if rather than seeking our own quiet salvation we should instead be seeking to perform heroic acts to add scenes of glory to God’s family tapestry that I am certain hangs proudly in His banquet hall.
God Bless,
James
C
Catholic_Author
Guest
Here it is… the overview I have been promising. It’s not the map I wanted it to be but I think perhaps a grand overview like a map is outside the scope of a forum and my expertise. Nevertheless, I hope this comparison will suffice:
The Setting
The setting for both Ex 16 and Jn 6 is the Passover and the crossing of a body of water en mass after the working of miracles and in connection with the healing power of God. In Ex14 the whole of Israel had been delivered out of Egypt after the Passover by the mighty hand of God through the Red Sea. In Ex 15:26 God promises that through their obedience He will heal them saying, “If you really listen to the voice of the LORD, your God and do what is right in his eyes: if you heed his commandments and keep all his precepts, I will not afflict you with any of the diseases with which I afflicted the Egyptians; for I, the LORD, am your healer.” In Jn6:1&2 Jesus crosses the Sea of Galilee and “A large crowd followed him, because they saw the signs he was performing on the sick.” Passover is approaching. In Exodus the people are fed in the dessert but in John the people are fed on the mountain. In both cases the Lord is present to the people, in Exodus He is shrouded or veiled, and in John He is revealed. In Ex16:10 the entire community presented themselves to the Lord, “they turned toward the desert, and lo, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud!” In John 6:10 the people reclined before Jesus.
Sidebar:
There are clear indications of the liturgy where the people turn to face the Glory of the Lord in Exodus and in John are reclined facing Him.
The Hungry Masses and the Test
In both instances there is not enough food for the hungry masses. In Ex 15:2&3 the Israelites grumble against Mosses and Aaron saying that it would have been preferable to die in Egypt, “as we sat by our fleshpots and ate our fill of bread! But you had to lead us into this desert to make the whole community die of famine!” In Jn 6 :5-7 Jesus challenges the disciples to feed the crowd .
Sidebar:
It is interesting to note that the Israelites grumbled against both Moses and Aaron because Jesus will later compare himself to Moses, which by analogy makes the disciples like Aaron. Aaron was Moses’ brother and the disciples are Jesus’ brothers in at least two ways. First, some of the disciples are His kin, His cousins. Second, Jesus shares our humanity making Himself one of us, one with us.
The Lord tested the Israelites and also the disciples such that a true follower of the Lord is discerned by their obedience to the word of God. In Ex16:4 The Lord tests the people in the desert saying, “I will now rain down bread from heaven for you. Each day the people are to go out and gather their daily portion; thus will I test them, to see whether they follow my instructions or not.” In Jn 6:5&6 Jesus asks Philip, “Where can we buy enough food for them to eat?" and He asks this “because he himself knew what he was going to do.” In both sections of scripture following the word of the Lord is the central purpose of the text and the Lord’s test.
Instructions for the Test
In Exodus 16:16-29
Each man is to daily gather enough manna for his tent (household)
Keep none of it till the next day (consume it all)
On the sixth day gather twice as much for the Sabbath
In Jn 6:12&13
The disciples are to distribute to the people as much as the people wanted.
The disciples are to gather the fragments that remain so that nothing is wasted.
There are certain elements of the instructions that are in Exodus 16 which are not in John 6 but which can be found elsewhere in scripture. For instance, in Ex it is a daily event to gather manna for your household. In the Our Father prayer the bread we are instructed to ask for is commonly translated as “daily bread” but may also be translated “super-substantial” bread at the same time. Also in Corinthians 11, Jesus instructs the disciples to celebrate the Eucharist often in remembrance of Him.
On the other hand there are also direct parallels. Where as in Ex the men of each household are to collect for their tent, in Jn the disciples are to distribute to those reclining. There were twelve houses of Israel and equivalently twelve Apostles. Accordingly when the fragments are collected by the disciples there are twelve baskets collected, one for each of the Apostles who represent each of the houses of Israel.
… to be continued.
The Setting
The setting for both Ex 16 and Jn 6 is the Passover and the crossing of a body of water en mass after the working of miracles and in connection with the healing power of God. In Ex14 the whole of Israel had been delivered out of Egypt after the Passover by the mighty hand of God through the Red Sea. In Ex 15:26 God promises that through their obedience He will heal them saying, “If you really listen to the voice of the LORD, your God and do what is right in his eyes: if you heed his commandments and keep all his precepts, I will not afflict you with any of the diseases with which I afflicted the Egyptians; for I, the LORD, am your healer.” In Jn6:1&2 Jesus crosses the Sea of Galilee and “A large crowd followed him, because they saw the signs he was performing on the sick.” Passover is approaching. In Exodus the people are fed in the dessert but in John the people are fed on the mountain. In both cases the Lord is present to the people, in Exodus He is shrouded or veiled, and in John He is revealed. In Ex16:10 the entire community presented themselves to the Lord, “they turned toward the desert, and lo, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud!” In John 6:10 the people reclined before Jesus.
Sidebar:
There are clear indications of the liturgy where the people turn to face the Glory of the Lord in Exodus and in John are reclined facing Him.
The Hungry Masses and the Test
In both instances there is not enough food for the hungry masses. In Ex 15:2&3 the Israelites grumble against Mosses and Aaron saying that it would have been preferable to die in Egypt, “as we sat by our fleshpots and ate our fill of bread! But you had to lead us into this desert to make the whole community die of famine!” In Jn 6 :5-7 Jesus challenges the disciples to feed the crowd .
Sidebar:
It is interesting to note that the Israelites grumbled against both Moses and Aaron because Jesus will later compare himself to Moses, which by analogy makes the disciples like Aaron. Aaron was Moses’ brother and the disciples are Jesus’ brothers in at least two ways. First, some of the disciples are His kin, His cousins. Second, Jesus shares our humanity making Himself one of us, one with us.
The Lord tested the Israelites and also the disciples such that a true follower of the Lord is discerned by their obedience to the word of God. In Ex16:4 The Lord tests the people in the desert saying, “I will now rain down bread from heaven for you. Each day the people are to go out and gather their daily portion; thus will I test them, to see whether they follow my instructions or not.” In Jn 6:5&6 Jesus asks Philip, “Where can we buy enough food for them to eat?" and He asks this “because he himself knew what he was going to do.” In both sections of scripture following the word of the Lord is the central purpose of the text and the Lord’s test.
Instructions for the Test
In Exodus 16:16-29
Each man is to daily gather enough manna for his tent (household)
Keep none of it till the next day (consume it all)
On the sixth day gather twice as much for the Sabbath
In Jn 6:12&13
The disciples are to distribute to the people as much as the people wanted.
The disciples are to gather the fragments that remain so that nothing is wasted.
There are certain elements of the instructions that are in Exodus 16 which are not in John 6 but which can be found elsewhere in scripture. For instance, in Ex it is a daily event to gather manna for your household. In the Our Father prayer the bread we are instructed to ask for is commonly translated as “daily bread” but may also be translated “super-substantial” bread at the same time. Also in Corinthians 11, Jesus instructs the disciples to celebrate the Eucharist often in remembrance of Him.
On the other hand there are also direct parallels. Where as in Ex the men of each household are to collect for their tent, in Jn the disciples are to distribute to those reclining. There were twelve houses of Israel and equivalently twelve Apostles. Accordingly when the fragments are collected by the disciples there are twelve baskets collected, one for each of the Apostles who represent each of the houses of Israel.
… to be continued.
C
Catholic_Author
Guest
continued…
Bread from Heaven and Flesh to Know He is God
First, the food that is given in both cases of scripture is both bread and flesh. In Ex it is quail at night and manna at morning. In Jn it is loaves and fishes. Jesus will explain that He is the bread from heaven and that this bread is actually His flesh. This is the real test that the Lord is making. The point in both cases is that in receiving food from heaven we are to recognize and acknowledge that the Lord is God. To eat the food from heaven without acknowledging this is to fail the test.
The Lord gives this food in both cases explicitly so that the people will know He is the Lord. In Ex 16:12 the Lord God says, “In the evening twilight you shall eat flesh, and in the morning you shall have your fill of bread, so that you may know that I, the LORD, am your God.” In Jn 6:14 the people hail Jesus as the “the one who is to come into the world." They use the word Prophet but it is supplemented by the phrase “the one who is to come into the world," which expresses that this Prophet is more than earthly. Jn 16:16-25 describes that the people are amazed at how Jesus came to Capernaum since they did not see Him get into any boat. This happens the next day after the people credit Jesus as the one who comes into the world. It seems that it is the intent of the author to compare the mysterious and even miraculous arrival of Jesus in Capernaum with the crowd’s previous praise. A few verses later (16:38) Jesus explicitly tells them, “…I came down from heaven…” and the Jews ask incredulously, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph? Do we not know his father and mother? Then how can he say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” At this point Jesus makes a direct comparison of Himself with the manna of Exodus and focuses on the important difference between the two. This difference advances or progresses the concept of the bread from heaven from a figurative analogy of God’s providence to a literal presence. In the desert, God provided bread, on the mountain God provides Himself. This is the essential difference between Judaism and Christianity. What did Jesus have to offer the Jews that Moses and the prophets did not already offer them? He offers Himself. He offers God Himself.
Amen.
Bread from Heaven and Flesh to Know He is God
First, the food that is given in both cases of scripture is both bread and flesh. In Ex it is quail at night and manna at morning. In Jn it is loaves and fishes. Jesus will explain that He is the bread from heaven and that this bread is actually His flesh. This is the real test that the Lord is making. The point in both cases is that in receiving food from heaven we are to recognize and acknowledge that the Lord is God. To eat the food from heaven without acknowledging this is to fail the test.
The Lord gives this food in both cases explicitly so that the people will know He is the Lord. In Ex 16:12 the Lord God says, “In the evening twilight you shall eat flesh, and in the morning you shall have your fill of bread, so that you may know that I, the LORD, am your God.” In Jn 6:14 the people hail Jesus as the “the one who is to come into the world." They use the word Prophet but it is supplemented by the phrase “the one who is to come into the world," which expresses that this Prophet is more than earthly. Jn 16:16-25 describes that the people are amazed at how Jesus came to Capernaum since they did not see Him get into any boat. This happens the next day after the people credit Jesus as the one who comes into the world. It seems that it is the intent of the author to compare the mysterious and even miraculous arrival of Jesus in Capernaum with the crowd’s previous praise. A few verses later (16:38) Jesus explicitly tells them, “…I came down from heaven…” and the Jews ask incredulously, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph? Do we not know his father and mother? Then how can he say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” At this point Jesus makes a direct comparison of Himself with the manna of Exodus and focuses on the important difference between the two. This difference advances or progresses the concept of the bread from heaven from a figurative analogy of God’s providence to a literal presence. In the desert, God provided bread, on the mountain God provides Himself. This is the essential difference between Judaism and Christianity. What did Jesus have to offer the Jews that Moses and the prophets did not already offer them? He offers Himself. He offers God Himself.
Amen.
J
JReducation
Guest
Tim:
I took the liberty of editing what you have put together. It’s very good work and shows a great deal of effort. I would suggest that you synthesize it so that it leads to where you want to go faster.
The Setting
The setting for both Ex 16 and Jn 6 is the Passover
In Ex14 the whole of Israel had been delivered out of Egypt after the Passover by the mighty hand of God
In Exodus He is shrouded or veiled, and in John He is revealed.
Instructions for the Sign (I changed the term because in context the idea was that this was to be a sign, not a test of their faith.
In Exodus 16:16-29
Each man is to daily gather enough manna for his tent (household)
Keep none of it till the next day (consume it all)
On the sixth day gather twice as much for the Sabbath
In Jn 6:12&13
The disciples are to distribute to the people as much as the people wanted.
The disciples are to gather the fragments that remain so that nothing is wasted.
I took out a complete section, because I found it distracting from the next piece which is essential.
Bread from Heaven and Flesh to Know He is God
First, the food that is given in both cases of scripture is both bread and flesh. In Ex it is quail at night and manna at morning. In Jn it is loaves and fishes. Jesus will explain that He is the bread from heaven and that this bread is actually His flesh.
I eliminated this peace, because it was not meant as a test. It was meant as a sign of Christ’s divinity.
The Lord gives this food in both cases explicitly so that the people will know He is the Lord. In Ex 16:12 the Lord God says, “In the evening twilight you shall eat flesh, and in the morning you shall have your fill of bread, so that you may know that I, the LORD, am your God.”
In Jn 6:14 the people hail Jesus as the “the one who is to come into the world."
This piece is inserted by the author of John to make a connection between Jesus and Moses. It is also a reference to Mal 3;1-23.
Keep this.
A few verses later (16:38) Jesus explicitly tells them, “…I came down from heaven…” and the Jews ask incredulously, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph? Do we not know his father and mother? Then how can he say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” At this point Jesus makes a direct comparison of Himself with the manna of Exodus and focuses on the important difference between the two. This difference advances or progresses the concept of the bread from heaven from a figurative analogy of God’s providence to a literal presence. In the desert, God provided bread, on the mountain God provides Himself. This is the essential difference between Judaism and Christianity. What did Jesus have to offer the Jews that Moses and the prophets did not already offer them? He offers Himself. He offers God Himself.
I don’t mean to offend by my editing.
JR
I took the liberty of editing what you have put together. It’s very good work and shows a great deal of effort. I would suggest that you synthesize it so that it leads to where you want to go faster.
The Setting
The setting for both Ex 16 and Jn 6 is the Passover
In Ex14 the whole of Israel had been delivered out of Egypt after the Passover by the mighty hand of God
In Exodus He is shrouded or veiled, and in John He is revealed.
Instructions for the Sign (I changed the term because in context the idea was that this was to be a sign, not a test of their faith.
In Exodus 16:16-29
Each man is to daily gather enough manna for his tent (household)
Keep none of it till the next day (consume it all)
On the sixth day gather twice as much for the Sabbath
In Jn 6:12&13
The disciples are to distribute to the people as much as the people wanted.
The disciples are to gather the fragments that remain so that nothing is wasted.
I took out a complete section, because I found it distracting from the next piece which is essential.
Bread from Heaven and Flesh to Know He is God
First, the food that is given in both cases of scripture is both bread and flesh. In Ex it is quail at night and manna at morning. In Jn it is loaves and fishes. Jesus will explain that He is the bread from heaven and that this bread is actually His flesh.
I eliminated this peace, because it was not meant as a test. It was meant as a sign of Christ’s divinity.
The Lord gives this food in both cases explicitly so that the people will know He is the Lord. In Ex 16:12 the Lord God says, “In the evening twilight you shall eat flesh, and in the morning you shall have your fill of bread, so that you may know that I, the LORD, am your God.”
In Jn 6:14 the people hail Jesus as the “the one who is to come into the world."
This piece is inserted by the author of John to make a connection between Jesus and Moses. It is also a reference to Mal 3;1-23.
Keep this.
A few verses later (16:38) Jesus explicitly tells them, “…I came down from heaven…” and the Jews ask incredulously, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph? Do we not know his father and mother? Then how can he say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” At this point Jesus makes a direct comparison of Himself with the manna of Exodus and focuses on the important difference between the two. This difference advances or progresses the concept of the bread from heaven from a figurative analogy of God’s providence to a literal presence. In the desert, God provided bread, on the mountain God provides Himself. This is the essential difference between Judaism and Christianity. What did Jesus have to offer the Jews that Moses and the prophets did not already offer them? He offers Himself. He offers God Himself.
I don’t mean to offend by my editing.
JR
P
Pax
Guest
I especially like the tie in of Moses as a type of Christ. The best of all of your outline is the following:
"Bread from Heaven and Flesh to Know He is God
First, the food that is given in both cases of scripture is both bread and flesh. In Ex it is quail at night and manna at morning. In Jn it is loaves and fishes. Jesus will explain that He is the bread from heaven and that this bread is actually His flesh. This is the real test that the Lord is making. The point in both cases is that in receiving food from heaven we are to recognize and acknowledge that the Lord is God. To eat the food from heaven without acknowledging this is to fail the test."
Keep up the good work.
"Bread from Heaven and Flesh to Know He is God
First, the food that is given in both cases of scripture is both bread and flesh. In Ex it is quail at night and manna at morning. In Jn it is loaves and fishes. Jesus will explain that He is the bread from heaven and that this bread is actually His flesh. This is the real test that the Lord is making. The point in both cases is that in receiving food from heaven we are to recognize and acknowledge that the Lord is God. To eat the food from heaven without acknowledging this is to fail the test."
Keep up the good work.
P
Pax
Guest
I think that the opposite is going on with the shroud or veil vs. Jesus revealed in John. Or perhaps it’s both.Tim:
I took the liberty of editing what you have put together. It’s very good work and shows a great deal of effort. I would suggest that you synthesize it so that it leads to where you want to go faster.
The Setting
The setting for both Ex 16 and Jn 6 is the Passover
In Ex14 the whole of Israel had been delivered out of Egypt after the Passover by the mighty hand of God
In Exodus He is shrouded or veiled, and in John He is revealed.
…
…
JR
Moses climbed Sinai and God gave him the covenant and the stone tablets. When Moses returned to the people his face shone and he covered it with a veil. Moses was not allowed to look upon the face of God because to do so would have caused his death. In John Jesus offers us his body and blood as true food and true drink hidden under the appearances of bread and wine. This is the body and blood of the new covenant. Like Moses we cannot look upon the face and glory of God. Moses face was veiled because it shone with the glory of God. Likewise, Jesus is veiled in the Eucharist.
What do you think?
J
JReducation
Guest
This is consistent with Catholic faith.
There is also the practical side of this. Jesus offers himself as food and drink for all people. What are the two elements that you will find in any society? Bread and wine.
The bread and wine go beyond God hiding his glory. It speaks to the universality of salvation. Christ is for all people.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Great insight CA.
It’s a minor thought but I could not help but see a connection between the flesh imagery you highlight in the quail in the dessert and in the fish in the account of the feeding of the crowd. Is it coincidence that both of these fleshy things are mobile within a fluid either? One moves through the viscous medium of air the other moves through the viscous medium of water. Both use “wings” (fins are just specialized wings suitable for water). This hints mildly of spirit flight or delivery.
Also I wonder if we can tie the OT veil imagery into the account of the temple curtain/veil being torn from top to bottom at the moment Jesus dies in the NT?
Matthew 27: 51
And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split
Luke 23:44
It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 because the sun was obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two. 46 And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.”
There is a LOT going on in the connectivity between OT and NT in the areas of the covenants, the prefiguring, the symbolism, and the prophetic events that center on the climatic events of the Last Supper, The Crucifixion and Death of Jesus and the Resurrection. It appears to me anyway that there are many concurrent and multi-dimensional things being implied in the progression.
Noteworthy to is the observation of how OT scripture is cast in new light after the resurrection. What seemed as pure historical account in the OT prior to the resurrection (Jews being delivered out of Egypt to the promised land and all the progressive history from that) suddenly looks more like revelation and prefiguring confirmation in the wake of The Crucifixion and Resurrection. God seems to be saying to us that “everything I have done and now do has been a lesson layered upon a lesson”.
On a personal note I marvel how we find ourselves 2000+ years post resurrection and we are still unraveling new dimensions of truth in going from old to new testaments. It’s really profound and I personally can not see how any non-believer or skeptic who has read the Bible (OT and NT) cover to cover and studied it at even a rudimentary level could ever “not believe” that God is real and Jesus is His Son. There is just too much happening and such a profound cross correlation of events over thousands of years. No human being could have in any way orchestrated a grand multi-generational conspiracy to fabricate any of it.
James
It’s a minor thought but I could not help but see a connection between the flesh imagery you highlight in the quail in the dessert and in the fish in the account of the feeding of the crowd. Is it coincidence that both of these fleshy things are mobile within a fluid either? One moves through the viscous medium of air the other moves through the viscous medium of water. Both use “wings” (fins are just specialized wings suitable for water). This hints mildly of spirit flight or delivery.
Also I wonder if we can tie the OT veil imagery into the account of the temple curtain/veil being torn from top to bottom at the moment Jesus dies in the NT?
Matthew 27: 51
And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split
Luke 23:44
It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 because the sun was obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two. 46 And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.”
There is a LOT going on in the connectivity between OT and NT in the areas of the covenants, the prefiguring, the symbolism, and the prophetic events that center on the climatic events of the Last Supper, The Crucifixion and Death of Jesus and the Resurrection. It appears to me anyway that there are many concurrent and multi-dimensional things being implied in the progression.
Noteworthy to is the observation of how OT scripture is cast in new light after the resurrection. What seemed as pure historical account in the OT prior to the resurrection (Jews being delivered out of Egypt to the promised land and all the progressive history from that) suddenly looks more like revelation and prefiguring confirmation in the wake of The Crucifixion and Resurrection. God seems to be saying to us that “everything I have done and now do has been a lesson layered upon a lesson”.
On a personal note I marvel how we find ourselves 2000+ years post resurrection and we are still unraveling new dimensions of truth in going from old to new testaments. It’s really profound and I personally can not see how any non-believer or skeptic who has read the Bible (OT and NT) cover to cover and studied it at even a rudimentary level could ever “not believe” that God is real and Jesus is His Son. There is just too much happening and such a profound cross correlation of events over thousands of years. No human being could have in any way orchestrated a grand multi-generational conspiracy to fabricate any of it.
James
C
Catholic_Author
Guest
No offense taken. I would rather explore all these elements thoroughly than remove any of them. True it will be tedious but it will be worth it. I do not want it to lead me where I want to go but I want it to lead me where it already goes and it can take its time getting there. It’s about the process and the journey.
OK, it’s a sign. I used the word “test” because that is how it is written in the NAB. I do prefer the RSV which says, “prove” as does the Douay-Rheims. But I would like to leave in the part about the Glory of the Lord. It is integral to understanding the food that God gives. What happens is this. First God appears to the Israelites in the morning in a cloud. Then at night He gives them quail. Then the next morning He gives them manna. This is very important for at least two reasons. One, it is about knowing who God is, it is about recognizing, acknowledging the presence of God as evidenced in the cloud of glory. Two, the people are fed both night and day, which shows a perpetual offering (or gift if you prefer) and relates to and foreshadows the perfect offering that is to be made from east to west. East to west is from the rising of the sun to the setting of the sun. It encompasses the whole world at all times. I might also add that in the morning the manna appears when and where the glory of the Lord had been. This is opposite but in no way contradictory to what we believe about the Eucharist, that the Lord becomes substantive where the bread was. But in the desert, the glory of the Lord, the quail/flesh and the manna/bread are all separate things. In John 6 Jesus says that all these things are one, He says that they are Him… “I am the bread that came down form heaven… the bread that I will give is my flesh…”
This is concise and poignant but I have considered the Passover and the passing through the waters some more and have something else to share. I think I mistakenly compared Jesus’ crossing the Sea of Galilee at the beginning of John 6 with the crossing of the Red Sea. The timing is too far off to be a fair parallel. Yet there is a correlation. John mentions that the feast of Passover was approaching when Jesus performed this miracle of the loaves and fishes. In parallel this would be prior to the crossing of the Red Sea. The crossing of the Read Sea was also a miraculous event. I now think that this better correlates to Jesus walking on the sea in Jn 6:19 simply because it is miraculous. The problem is that the Israelites didn’t receive the manna till after they crossed the sea and came into the desert. That’s ok in one respect; Jesus does not make the reference to the manna till after He crosses Galilee. But the feeding of the five thousand occurs before crossing the waters of Galilee and the gift of manna occurs after crossing the waters of the Red Sea. If Jesus’ the feeding of the masses is more akin to the Passover then why does Jesus refer to the manna? It is as if his actions relate to the Passover but His words relate to the manna… He is saying that His food is both the meal that commemorates the exodus from slavery and the meal that commemorates the presence of God in His Glory. By both His words and His actions Jesus says that both the Passover and the manna have their culmination in Him. I think this is what is prefigured by setting manna in the context of Passover; it ties the blood of the lamb with the manna.
P
Pax
Guest
I would say that you are definitely onto something in what you have been proposing. The sequence of the Passover, the crossing the Red Sea, and then the manna are neatly paralleled with Jesus initiating at the time of the Passover, a walk across the Sea of Galilee, and then the promise of giving us His body and blood as true food and true drink relative to the manna. Jesus is the true food/bread come down from heaven. All of this speaks of the food for the journey and the signs and trials that the Jews went through before reaching the promised land, just as we will see trials and have food for our journey as Jesus leads us to the New Jerusalem promised in the book of Revelation.
I’m not sure that the feeding of multitudes has to fit into the OT parallel in any direct way. The miracle at Cana and the multiplication of the loaves and fish may be unneccessary for direct parallel and only necessary for amplifying the miraculous aspects of Jesus promise in John 6. The walking on the water also helps prepare the Jews and us for seeing the miraculous promise in John 6, but it may also play a part in the parallel while the others do not. You have wisely pointed out earlier that parallels and types have both similarities and differences. As long as none of the parts serve as contra-indicators it would seem like the rest of the chain is a go.
Keep up the good work.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
I wanted to capture here some thoughts I just posted on the original transubstantiation discussion that show a motivation for at least real-presence and transubstantiation (both concepts assume each other) that logically plays holistically into the entire salvation message of the bible.
Given a motivation God should have left us compelling signs of Eucharist in the OT. Basically I am coming at this from the perspective that we often have through the pragmatic aspects of life’s lesson - namely, we often already know the answer as a consequence of being. Going on that assumption of truth we just now need to prove it to ourselves how we got there. God should have left us plenty of hints and signs to ratify it for us.
From the time of the fall in Genesis 3:17 we note that we humans must sustain ourselves with food taken from a lower food-chain that derives from the soil of the earth and the ground (a soil cursed by God as a consequence of Adam’s fall). This implies that our very human need to nourish ourselves with food from the earth requires us to eat food that is tainted by the curse of sin. Thus the very food we eat in a manner of speaking is quite like a slow poison that while giving the illusion of growth (for a while) eventually brings us to physical death - just as the poison of sin if left to its logical conclusion progressively corrupts to bring us to spiritual death (full separation from God - Hell).
In the NT the entire food chain is inverted if one accepts the Catholic revelation and teaching that Eucharist is divine food. In the Eucharist we have a divine food that comes from the purest of the purest of places - Heaven sent manna - the Bread of Life (Psalm 81:16 ‘But I would feed you with the finest of the wheat, And with honey from the rock I would satisfy you’ [ed. the mead of Christ’s church headed by Peter - “the rock”?).
If Eucharist is accept as we Catholics do then humanity can now for the first time in its history partake of a divine food that comes from a place above itself infinitely HIGHER UP in the food chain where no curse is deserving - heaven ( Rev 22:3). Thus in The Eucharist we have a new higher order food that can nourish us in ways that are promised to sustain us in eternal life. What a terrific motivation and what an amazingly integrative way for a loving God to save us! Eucharist exploits our own human hunger and depravity (spiritual) as a means to save us and grow us toward Him. Its like the perfect medicine - it victimizes (spiritual) hunger and makes it the thing that compels us to eat and be healed.
From the context of the risen Christ the entire biblical story (OT + NT ) becomes profoundly simple and very logical with Eucharist. But without the Eucharist scripture would be missing something huge (ironically, non-Catholics are missing the most important dimension of scripture [the living word of God] and should be absolutely pining with hunger for something that does not quite satisfy or “feel quite right” in the inky print on the pulp pages of the bible).
The living Word (made flesh) is the only thing that provides literal and spiritual linkage between Old and New testaments. It embodies all scripture and all promise and all hope. The same Word that becomes flesh through the cooperation with humanity (Mary [NT] and Abraham [OT]) in the Incarnation is the same Word that transforms us to Eternal Life by making Eve’s fallen and banished children [OT] into Children of Light [NT] with the Bread of Life [OT/NT bridge]; the Divine Bread that rains down from heaven over the whole field of God. It is the same Word that promised to not leave us orphans and which dwells among us as Emanuel [OT/NT Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23 ]; the very same who frees us from the bondage of sin to lead us home to the eternal freedom of the promised land [OT]- God’s Kingdom [NT]. Everything seamlessly flows through the Eucharist from Old to New if we accept the prefiguring evidence in the OT with the real presence implied and stated in NT.
Without Eucharist the bible becomes nothing but a history intermixed with fairy tale and wishful thinking. Without Eucharist the man that died on the cross was just some deluded “nice Jewish guy” who loved his mother but was the illegitimate son of a betrothed woman who knew scripture very well and may have role played it all out of Jewish guilt and shame for his mother. Perhaps this man’s real father becomes some roman military officer who took his privilege to have sexual relations with a subjected Jewish woman before she was permitted to marry. Or perhaps this man’s real father was born from an illicit union of a lustful temple priest with a beautiful temple virgin; and Mary had to be quickly betrothed to some desperate and homely man ( a widower named Joseph) who would take her in out of loneliness and remain quiet to prevent a scandal to the temple. I THINK NOT!
[continued]
James
.
Given a motivation God should have left us compelling signs of Eucharist in the OT. Basically I am coming at this from the perspective that we often have through the pragmatic aspects of life’s lesson - namely, we often already know the answer as a consequence of being. Going on that assumption of truth we just now need to prove it to ourselves how we got there. God should have left us plenty of hints and signs to ratify it for us.
From the time of the fall in Genesis 3:17 we note that we humans must sustain ourselves with food taken from a lower food-chain that derives from the soil of the earth and the ground (a soil cursed by God as a consequence of Adam’s fall). This implies that our very human need to nourish ourselves with food from the earth requires us to eat food that is tainted by the curse of sin. Thus the very food we eat in a manner of speaking is quite like a slow poison that while giving the illusion of growth (for a while) eventually brings us to physical death - just as the poison of sin if left to its logical conclusion progressively corrupts to bring us to spiritual death (full separation from God - Hell).
In the NT the entire food chain is inverted if one accepts the Catholic revelation and teaching that Eucharist is divine food. In the Eucharist we have a divine food that comes from the purest of the purest of places - Heaven sent manna - the Bread of Life (Psalm 81:16 ‘But I would feed you with the finest of the wheat, And with honey from the rock I would satisfy you’ [ed. the mead of Christ’s church headed by Peter - “the rock”?).
If Eucharist is accept as we Catholics do then humanity can now for the first time in its history partake of a divine food that comes from a place above itself infinitely HIGHER UP in the food chain where no curse is deserving - heaven ( Rev 22:3). Thus in The Eucharist we have a new higher order food that can nourish us in ways that are promised to sustain us in eternal life. What a terrific motivation and what an amazingly integrative way for a loving God to save us! Eucharist exploits our own human hunger and depravity (spiritual) as a means to save us and grow us toward Him. Its like the perfect medicine - it victimizes (spiritual) hunger and makes it the thing that compels us to eat and be healed.
From the context of the risen Christ the entire biblical story (OT + NT ) becomes profoundly simple and very logical with Eucharist. But without the Eucharist scripture would be missing something huge (ironically, non-Catholics are missing the most important dimension of scripture [the living word of God] and should be absolutely pining with hunger for something that does not quite satisfy or “feel quite right” in the inky print on the pulp pages of the bible).
The living Word (made flesh) is the only thing that provides literal and spiritual linkage between Old and New testaments. It embodies all scripture and all promise and all hope. The same Word that becomes flesh through the cooperation with humanity (Mary [NT] and Abraham [OT]) in the Incarnation is the same Word that transforms us to Eternal Life by making Eve’s fallen and banished children [OT] into Children of Light [NT] with the Bread of Life [OT/NT bridge]; the Divine Bread that rains down from heaven over the whole field of God. It is the same Word that promised to not leave us orphans and which dwells among us as Emanuel [OT/NT Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23 ]; the very same who frees us from the bondage of sin to lead us home to the eternal freedom of the promised land [OT]- God’s Kingdom [NT]. Everything seamlessly flows through the Eucharist from Old to New if we accept the prefiguring evidence in the OT with the real presence implied and stated in NT.
Without Eucharist the bible becomes nothing but a history intermixed with fairy tale and wishful thinking. Without Eucharist the man that died on the cross was just some deluded “nice Jewish guy” who loved his mother but was the illegitimate son of a betrothed woman who knew scripture very well and may have role played it all out of Jewish guilt and shame for his mother. Perhaps this man’s real father becomes some roman military officer who took his privilege to have sexual relations with a subjected Jewish woman before she was permitted to marry. Or perhaps this man’s real father was born from an illicit union of a lustful temple priest with a beautiful temple virgin; and Mary had to be quickly betrothed to some desperate and homely man ( a widower named Joseph) who would take her in out of loneliness and remain quiet to prevent a scandal to the temple. I THINK NOT!
[continued]
James
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
[continued from above]
Scripture becomes much too ordered, profound, integrative and “God like” with the greater dimension that Eucharist “brings to the table”. Without Eucharist we have much less integrative dimension in scripture and if not true it should be true.
We have the Eucharistic hints in Psalm 34:8:
O taste and see that the LORD is good; How blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him!
The human discernable motive for God providing us Eucharist is I think also found in how it logically and easily fits into the entire literal text of the salvation story. If we did not have the Eucharist teaching in NT something huge would be missing. There would be a “gap” in the Old Testament imagery seen in Eden (in partaking of forbidden fruit) and the manna from heaven and in the Jewish exodus and in the NT message from Jesus to eat His body and drink His blood and enter into The Kingdom (the true Promised Land). The OT analogy seen in God’s people being delivered from sin and bondage to the promised land is about REAL life and sustaining oneself physically and spiritually against massive and tearful REAL suffering. The Jews of the Old Testament were not about to buy into symbolic anything - their life was on the line daily. We should expect in NT to find something REAL that sustains us in our personal journey to The Kingdom just as the Jews had REAL presence in the Arc of the Covenant and in the sustaining nutrition of manna in the dessert.
Eucharist just “fits” too easily with the Genesis story of Eden. We see in the NT How merciful and good God is to explain through the consequence of disobedience (in the suffering and pain it brought both God [in Jesus’ suffering] and Man) that ‘equality with God is not something to be grasped at’ (as in Eden). Assuming the Eucharist to be real presence the message that comes out of a holistic view of the Bible becomes integrative and just makes sense - unless one wants to go out of their way not to believe. The message is simply: “Stretch forth your hand as in Eden but this time receive (rather than take) the salvific fruit of Eucharist that I give to you as My free gift”. Eucharist corrects an ancient wrong by giving humanity a second chance in a manner that does not conflict Divine Justice with Divine Mercy. If humanity thought to mistrust God and steal divinity through taking the forbidden fruit how perfectly Just and Merciful it becomes for God to give each individual person of a fallen humanity a second personal chance to see if they would do any different than their parents (Adam & Eve) did. Through the Eucharist each person in a fallen humanity is given the opportunity to individually trust God and receive the very thing that their fore-parents wanted as a free gift - to be like God! That is more than fair - that is profound generosity and Divine Mercy. So it becomes not only foolish to not accept the free gift it becomes a supreme act of pride reminiscent of Satan’s very own to refuse it. Actively rejecting Eucharist as a free gift then becomes a thing that separates those who trust in God from those who do not (I won’t state the obvious conclusion explicitly). Apathy is not an option and is just as a supreme insult to God as is the deliberate rejection of His Gift. Eucharist compels a choice and it must be an active choice - not a passive choice. Accepting the Eucharist also becomes an active sign that one is living in the New Covenant of friendship with God. Nothing else in scripture substitutes for Eucharist in this manner. Baptism alone does not cut it - there is no concept of nourishment nor in actively receiving The Gift - daily.
So given the establishment of the motive for Eucharist (deconflicted Justice and Mercy and wilful acceptance of gift as medicine) and the way it all fits logically and interactively with scripture there should be no reason to doubt that The Eucharist is not prefigured in the OT. We should expect to find it in OT. We have here mentioned numerous things that prefigure Eucharist that I think are quite compelling. We should be able to “know” even in our deprived fallen condition that the Eucharist should be in scripture even if we had we not seen it before the Last Supper and the resurrection. It was present not only in the promises and messages of God’s prophets. It was also present in the very suffering lives of the people who lived, ate and breathed scripture all their lives and delivered the Living Word through the obedience of Mary and the Davidic lineage at the Incarnation.
I am kind of surprised that there is no Star of David imprinted in the Eucharist.
God Bless,
James
Scripture becomes much too ordered, profound, integrative and “God like” with the greater dimension that Eucharist “brings to the table”. Without Eucharist we have much less integrative dimension in scripture and if not true it should be true.
We have the Eucharistic hints in Psalm 34:8:
O taste and see that the LORD is good; How blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him!
The human discernable motive for God providing us Eucharist is I think also found in how it logically and easily fits into the entire literal text of the salvation story. If we did not have the Eucharist teaching in NT something huge would be missing. There would be a “gap” in the Old Testament imagery seen in Eden (in partaking of forbidden fruit) and the manna from heaven and in the Jewish exodus and in the NT message from Jesus to eat His body and drink His blood and enter into The Kingdom (the true Promised Land). The OT analogy seen in God’s people being delivered from sin and bondage to the promised land is about REAL life and sustaining oneself physically and spiritually against massive and tearful REAL suffering. The Jews of the Old Testament were not about to buy into symbolic anything - their life was on the line daily. We should expect in NT to find something REAL that sustains us in our personal journey to The Kingdom just as the Jews had REAL presence in the Arc of the Covenant and in the sustaining nutrition of manna in the dessert.
Eucharist just “fits” too easily with the Genesis story of Eden. We see in the NT How merciful and good God is to explain through the consequence of disobedience (in the suffering and pain it brought both God [in Jesus’ suffering] and Man) that ‘equality with God is not something to be grasped at’ (as in Eden). Assuming the Eucharist to be real presence the message that comes out of a holistic view of the Bible becomes integrative and just makes sense - unless one wants to go out of their way not to believe. The message is simply: “Stretch forth your hand as in Eden but this time receive (rather than take) the salvific fruit of Eucharist that I give to you as My free gift”. Eucharist corrects an ancient wrong by giving humanity a second chance in a manner that does not conflict Divine Justice with Divine Mercy. If humanity thought to mistrust God and steal divinity through taking the forbidden fruit how perfectly Just and Merciful it becomes for God to give each individual person of a fallen humanity a second personal chance to see if they would do any different than their parents (Adam & Eve) did. Through the Eucharist each person in a fallen humanity is given the opportunity to individually trust God and receive the very thing that their fore-parents wanted as a free gift - to be like God! That is more than fair - that is profound generosity and Divine Mercy. So it becomes not only foolish to not accept the free gift it becomes a supreme act of pride reminiscent of Satan’s very own to refuse it. Actively rejecting Eucharist as a free gift then becomes a thing that separates those who trust in God from those who do not (I won’t state the obvious conclusion explicitly). Apathy is not an option and is just as a supreme insult to God as is the deliberate rejection of His Gift. Eucharist compels a choice and it must be an active choice - not a passive choice. Accepting the Eucharist also becomes an active sign that one is living in the New Covenant of friendship with God. Nothing else in scripture substitutes for Eucharist in this manner. Baptism alone does not cut it - there is no concept of nourishment nor in actively receiving The Gift - daily.
So given the establishment of the motive for Eucharist (deconflicted Justice and Mercy and wilful acceptance of gift as medicine) and the way it all fits logically and interactively with scripture there should be no reason to doubt that The Eucharist is not prefigured in the OT. We should expect to find it in OT. We have here mentioned numerous things that prefigure Eucharist that I think are quite compelling. We should be able to “know” even in our deprived fallen condition that the Eucharist should be in scripture even if we had we not seen it before the Last Supper and the resurrection. It was present not only in the promises and messages of God’s prophets. It was also present in the very suffering lives of the people who lived, ate and breathed scripture all their lives and delivered the Living Word through the obedience of Mary and the Davidic lineage at the Incarnation.
I am kind of surprised that there is no Star of David imprinted in the Eucharist.
God Bless,
James
P
Pax
Guest
Nice posts James.
I think what you said below is extremely important in reading scripture. Anyone that fails to look for the holiest and most God like understanding of the inspired word will fail to grasp the full meaning and beauty that is available to us. We are blessed to have the Church. The teachings of the Church spring forth from scripture and are the most sublime, holy and God like understandings of the inspired word. That is why we are so blessed to be in the Church that presents us with the Eucharist. That having been said, we still see through a glass dimly, and the experience of heaven will shine a light on scripture in ways that we cannot now imagine.
I think what you said below is extremely important in reading scripture. Anyone that fails to look for the holiest and most God like understanding of the inspired word will fail to grasp the full meaning and beauty that is available to us. We are blessed to have the Church. The teachings of the Church spring forth from scripture and are the most sublime, holy and God like understandings of the inspired word. That is why we are so blessed to be in the Church that presents us with the Eucharist. That having been said, we still see through a glass dimly, and the experience of heaven will shine a light on scripture in ways that we cannot now imagine.
J
JReducation
Guest
If I’m following this correctly what we’re saying is that the scriptures are about Christ, from begining to end. This is a view that has been held by the apostolic Churches for centuries.
Being that Christ is the Word of God, then the scriptures as word of God are really Christ dispelling the darkness and slowly revealing himself to mankind through the ages. Each story, whether fact or metaphor points to the entrance of Christ into human history at the Incarnation.
Once Christ enters human history at the incarnation he never leaves it. His ascention into Heaven is not a departure from humanity or from our world. As John carefully explains in his Prologue, Christ prefigures time and space. Therefore, it is possible for him to ascend and remain.
That being the case, that Christ can exist within time and outside of time, it is logical to accept that he can literally exist unde the appearance of bread and wine. Why bread and wine? First, these are common foods found around the world. Christ is for all men.
More important, he remains in our time and space through elements that can be perceived in our time and space. His glorified body cannot be perceived in our time and space. Our time and space cannot properly represent it, hence bread and wine.
Everything that you have laid out from the OT to the NT are the groundwork that God does leading to this moment when Christ will die and rise for the salvation of man and once he has redeemed man, he does not leave his redeemed creation on its own. For what sense would it make for God to redeem man and the abandon him? None at all.
What we have is a continuum of signs and word that point to the climax, redemption. The concept of signs and word are important. Because Christ is both sign and word. Therefore, the signs and words of the OT are not independent of Christ. In fact, they are hints of Christ. In the OT Christ cannot be perceived in the flesh, because he has not become incarnate, but he can be perceived metaphysically as his identity “sign and word” of the Father is already making its presence felt.
The final unveiling is at the Resurrection. The eucharist is the embodiment of the entire work of Christ where sign and word become fless, dies, rises and remains with us through the power of the Holy Spirit. Remember the words of consecration, “Send down your Spirit oh Lord that these may become for us the body and blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.” This is why the coming of the Holy Spirit is essential. The Spirit of the Lord makes all of this possible, the incarnation, the resurrection and the eucharist.
In Eucharist we see all of salvation history pulled together through the work of the Holy Spirit.
Being that Christ is the Word of God, then the scriptures as word of God are really Christ dispelling the darkness and slowly revealing himself to mankind through the ages. Each story, whether fact or metaphor points to the entrance of Christ into human history at the Incarnation.
Once Christ enters human history at the incarnation he never leaves it. His ascention into Heaven is not a departure from humanity or from our world. As John carefully explains in his Prologue, Christ prefigures time and space. Therefore, it is possible for him to ascend and remain.
That being the case, that Christ can exist within time and outside of time, it is logical to accept that he can literally exist unde the appearance of bread and wine. Why bread and wine? First, these are common foods found around the world. Christ is for all men.
More important, he remains in our time and space through elements that can be perceived in our time and space. His glorified body cannot be perceived in our time and space. Our time and space cannot properly represent it, hence bread and wine.
Everything that you have laid out from the OT to the NT are the groundwork that God does leading to this moment when Christ will die and rise for the salvation of man and once he has redeemed man, he does not leave his redeemed creation on its own. For what sense would it make for God to redeem man and the abandon him? None at all.
What we have is a continuum of signs and word that point to the climax, redemption. The concept of signs and word are important. Because Christ is both sign and word. Therefore, the signs and words of the OT are not independent of Christ. In fact, they are hints of Christ. In the OT Christ cannot be perceived in the flesh, because he has not become incarnate, but he can be perceived metaphysically as his identity “sign and word” of the Father is already making its presence felt.
The final unveiling is at the Resurrection. The eucharist is the embodiment of the entire work of Christ where sign and word become fless, dies, rises and remains with us through the power of the Holy Spirit. Remember the words of consecration, “Send down your Spirit oh Lord that these may become for us the body and blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.” This is why the coming of the Holy Spirit is essential. The Spirit of the Lord makes all of this possible, the incarnation, the resurrection and the eucharist.
In Eucharist we see all of salvation history pulled together through the work of the Holy Spirit.
P
Pax
Guest
All very well stated JR. The following brought something else to mind in addition to the Eucharist.
Jesus mystical body is the Church. The Church continues to dispell the darkness.
- Status