Transubstantiation Analogy form OT to NT

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JR,

I think you misunderstand…I am happy to follow along. This thread is a new experience for me. Go for it…you guys are great.

You are not excluding anyone…you guys have a real strength in this area and it is very enlightening.
 
Pax said:
This thread is a stretch for me because it involves so much more creative thinking and speculating on how all these things come together. This thread is on a theological exploration that I am only able to track and follow.
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Pax,
Thanks for the compliments.

For all those who are following and would like to contribute but don’t know in what way… may I suggest asking questions. You might ask for clarifications or post a what if scenario. For instance, what if we focus on the precious blood species since we seem to be exhausting our exploration on the relationship of manna to Christ’s body? This would take us to various OT and NT passages on wine. Or we could ask, how early on can we find the Liturgy foreshadowed in scripture?.. For instance, is the liturgy referring to obedience to the just chastisement of Adam/Man to till the ground by the sweat of his brow when it says that the gifts are the work of human hands?

I for one would like to take a look at the way scripture and tradition deal with blood and how Christ’s is different.

Did we already cover Joseph (the son of Jacob) to whom all the world came to get grain for bread during the famine?
 
Catholic_Author said:
I for one would like to take a look at the way scripture and tradition deal with blood and how Christ’s is different.
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You have to be very careful how you deal with this piece of the Eucharist, keeping in mind that the tradition of the Orthodox and the Roman Church says that the blood is actually both body and blood, because you can’t have a living Christ with just blood or just body, but that both elements are found in each.

This gets kind of tricky. When you receive of the chalice, you are still receiving the body and blood of Christ, not just the blood. On the converse is also true. When you receive the host, you are also receiving the blood, because it’s the entire person of Christ.

The reason that the preist breaks a piece off the host and drops it into the chalice comes from the Orthodox Church. They soak the bread to remind us that Christ’s body and blood cannot be separated, even though they appear to be to our senses.

For this reason, it is permissible to give someone to drink from the chalice without giving them the host and still believe they have received the body and blood of Christ. We had such a situation in my former parish at first communion. We had a little boy who is allergic to one of the elements of flour. I’m not sure what kind of allergy that is. But he was given to drink from the chalice. Everytime he went to mass his parents would have to let the priest or the deacon know that he was there. They would pour wine into a separate goblet, just for him. Then consecrate two goblets. One with a piece of host and one without. He was given to drink from the one without.

But getting back to the point, we must be careful how we treat the precious blood, remembering that the Church teaches that it is truly the whole Christ in body and blood in the chalice. You cannot separate a living person’s flesh from their blood, otherwise it’s not a living person.

JR 🙂

JR 🙂
 
In Leviticus 1:1-5 we read the following:

"THE LORD called Moses, and spoke to him from the tent of meeting, saying, “Speak to the people of Israel, and say to them, When any man of you brings an offering to the Lord, you shall bring your offering of cattle from the herd or from the flock. 'If his offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he shall offer a male without blemish; he shall offer it at the door of the tent of meeting, that he may be accepted before the Lord; he shall lay his hand upon the head of the burnt offering, and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. Then he shall kill the bull before the Lord; and Aaron’s sons the priests shall present the blood, and throw the blood round about against the altar that is at the door of the tent of meeting.”

There are many similar references in the OT describing animal sacrifice and the sprinkling of the blood upon the altar. This was done for the atonement of sin. When we compare this with the NT we see that "In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. [Hebrews 8:13]

The scriptures then go on to say “Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly sanctuary. For a tent was prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the bread of the Presence; it is called the Holy Place. Behind the second curtain stood a tent called the Holy of Holies, having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, which contained a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail. These preparations having thus been made, the priests go continually into the outer tent, performing their ritual duties; but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood which he offers for himself and for the errors of the people. By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the sanctuary is not yet opened as long as the outer tent is still standing (which is symbolic for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, but deal only with food and drink and various ablutions, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation. But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.”[Hebrews 9:1-14]

cont. on next post
 
cont. from prior post

There is clearly a foreshadowing in the Old Testament and an unveiling in the New Testament when it comes to blood, sacrifice, atonement, and eternal redemption. This foreshadowing includes the Eucharist which is prefigured by the manna and the bread of the presence as well as the sprinkling with blood. This whole theme in the OT is also continued in the Passover which requires the participants to consume the lamb. Jesus is the paschal lamb in the New Covenant.

So why is blood so important and why the prohibition of consuming blood in the OT? Furthermore, why does the consumption of Jesus flesh and blood become mandated in the New Covenant? Scripture clues us in by telling us the significance of the flesh and blood. The blood is considered to be “the life” in the living creature. Leviticus 17:11 says, “For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life.” Once again, this is a prefiguring of Jesus eternal redemptive sacrifice where we have a better covenant.

Please note that the “life” of the animal is in the blood and that is why the blood was given to God in sacrifice and everyone was forbidden to consume it. In the New Covenant Jesus blood gives us life. Animal blood in sacrifice cannot give that to us and that is why the Jews were told not to consume it. Eternal life is given to us through the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus. His flesh and blood are not like the flesh and blood of the animal sacrifices of the OT. Moreover, we do not consume the flesh and blood of Jesus in the same fashion as condemned in the OT. In the Eucharist we receive Jesus body, blood, soul, and divinity. In the Eucharist we receive this precious life giving gift sacramentaly rather than carnally. The prohibition in the Old Law simply does not trump Jesus’s command that we eat his flesh and drink his blood as true food and true drink.

The body and blood of Jesus are the “life” of Jesus. We are a priestly people and have a ministerial priesthood. Priests offer sacrifice. Hebrews 9:7 indicates that sacrifices are not offered without blood. Our sacrifice is the re-presentation of Jesus sacrifice of his body and blood offered to the Father. Jesus has told us to “do this in remembrance” of him. Jesus is the paschal lamb and must be consumed. Jesus says, “this is my body…this is my blood.” Jesus says, "“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.”

Eternal life is in the body and blood of Jesus and it is his body and blood that we are to consume.
 
JReducation said:
You have to be very careful how you deal with this piece of the Eucharist, keeping in mind that the tradition of the Orthodox and the Roman Church says that the blood is actually both body and blood, because you can’t have a living Christ with just blood or just body, but that both elements are found in each.
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This caution belongs properly to both our previous discussion on manna/bread of life, which in a sense deals with the bread species, and also it pertains to this new vein on wine/blood, which in a sense is the precious blood species. I think it is a very good caution indeed. We have been very careful and should continue to be very careful to remember that both species are entirely Him; Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. As usual I have an analogy that helps me… What living body do you know of that does not have blood coursing through its vessels? And what living blood does not have with in it bodies (platelets, white and red blood cells etc.)? You see our own observance of body and blood shows us that where one is the other is also. But they are not just coexisting but interrelating. If the body is to live it must have blood and if the blood is to bring life it must have the bodies. Separating body from blood means death. We saw this depicted clearly when the centurion pierces Jesus’ side and blood and water flow forth. His blood was then separated from His Body and so was dead. At the resurrection He comes to new life. In the Mass this is clearly illustrated when the priest puts a piece of the host into the chalice. The priest is proclaiming in a concrete and visual way, “See body and blood are reunited and Christ lives.” This is a living sacrament and both species must be body and blood in order to be so.
Pax said:
The blood is considered to be “the life” in the living creature. Leviticus 17:11 says, “For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life.” Once again, this is a prefiguring of Jesus eternal redemptive sacrifice where we have a better covenant.
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“…by reason of the life…” I would say that this is the reason why Jesus is able to fulfill the Old Testament covenant without contradicting it. This is not necessarily a better covenant but a perfecting of the first covenant. No one should drink the blood of animals because it is unclean… or imperfect if you will. Christ on the other hand is above the law because He is the Son of God. God made the rule and God can fulfill it. Also Jesus is the prefect offering and His blood makes a perfect atonement by reason of the perfect life. His blood is not unclean, not tainted by original sin.

The sacrifice of the OT atoned for sins a person had committed but it was a continual process that was done over and over again as people continued to sin. This is very different from Jesus’ one sacrifice that is not recurring in the Mass but continued.
 
And Pax, you said you had nothing meaningful to add;) . so unless a person has never read and/or studied the OT how could you NOT believe that the Eucharist IS Jesus. Now I am the one who has nothing more “meaningful” to add. Please continue 👍
 
maryj said:
And Pax, you said you had nothing meaningful to add;) . so unless a person has never read and/or studied the OT how could you NOT believe that the Eucharist IS Jesus. Now I am the one who has nothing more “meaningful” to add. Please continue 👍
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I’m going to piggyback onto you. 🙂

Great job so far to everyone who’s contributed. I’m going to save some of this stuff. 👍
 
I’m going to chime in here with a story that I am reminded of after reading some of the recent posts.

I spoke with a friend that joined the Church several years ago after being an atheist and then briefly a protestant. Shortly after she became Catholic, she sat near the back of church during one Mass. She had an interesting analogy that came to her as she noticed the people rising from pews to go up to receive communion. She said the people while kneeling, were like empty blood cells. The people stood up and proceeded up the aisle (blood vessels), received Christ, and returned to their seats. She related how in the analogy the people truly were the body of Christ – each playing their role as one cell in the body. Going up to receive the Eucharist nourished them. They returned to their seats, and eventually out into the world to carry Christ with them.
I thought this was incredibly insightful, and a beautiful analogy from a new Catholic. Keep up the great posts – I’m reading anxiously!
 
JR,

I’ve always wondered about the piercing of Jesus and knew that it had significance related to baptism and the cleansing of sin by the blood of Jesus. I had hoped to find a good study on the topic, but my commentaries all seemed a bit unsatisfying.

This article did more for me on this passage in scripture than anything else I’ve read. I’m glad you found it noteworthy too.
 
Pax said:
JR,

I’ve always wondered about the piercing of Jesus and knew that it had significance related to baptism and the cleansing of sin by the blood of Jesus. I had hoped to find a good study on the topic, but my commentaries all seemed a bit unsatisfying.

This article did more for me on this passage in scripture than anything else I’ve read. I’m glad you found it noteworthy too.
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We also believe that the Church was born from the side of Christ and that the blood and water are the humanity and divinity of the Church.

The Brother who wrote this article is getting his theological degree from one of my Alma Maters. YEHHHHHH! YOU GO BROTHER!!!
 
Pax said:
JR,

I’ve always wondered about the piercing of Jesus and knew that it had significance related to baptism and the cleansing of sin by the blood of Jesus. I had hoped to find a good study on the topic, but my commentaries all seemed a bit unsatisfying.

This article did more for me on this passage in scripture than anything else I’ve read. I’m glad you found it noteworthy too.
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There is more in the piercing than most think. Just as Eve was created from a wound from the side of Adam the Church was created from Jesus from the wound in His side. People also forget that in the Roman Rite of the Mass (not sure about Eastern Rites) we add a drop of water to the wine (water and blood) to represent the union of the people with Christ.

As a side note:
Divine Mercy Sunday, comes up the Sunday after Easter. This special feast day comes directly from a revelation to Sister Faustina Kowalska and relates directly to the imagery of Jesus’ heart being pierced and Divine Mercy being released as a final grace before He comes as the just judge.
Feast of Divine Mercy
Sister Faustina's Diary 699:
I desire that the Feast of Mercy be a refuge and shelter for all souls, and especially for poor sinners. On that day the very depths of My tender mercy are open. I pour out a whole ocean of graces upon those souls who approach the fount of My mercy. The soul that will go to Confession and receive Holy Communion shall obtain complete forgiveness of sins and punishment.* On that day all the divine floodgates through which grace flow are opened. Let no soul fear to draw near to Me, even though its sins be as scarlet. My mercy is so great that no mind, be it of man or of angel, will be able to fathom it throughout all eternity. Everything that exists has come forth from the very depths of My most tender mercy. Every soul in its relation to Me will I contemplate My love and mercy throughout eternity. The Feast of Mercy emerged from My very depths of tenderness. It is My desire that it be solemnly celebrated on the first Sunday after Easter. Mankind will not have peace until it turns to the Fount of My Mercy.
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http://www.newjerusalem.com/Mercy25K.JPG

James
 
CentralFLJames said:
There is more in the piercing than most think. Just as Eve was created from a wound from the side of Adam the Church was created from Jesus from the wound in His side. People also forget that in the Roman Rite of the Mass (not sure about Eastern Rites) we add a drop of water to the wine (water and blood) to represent the union of the people with Christ.
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Hi James.

Haven’t seen you around for a long time.

Yes, the Church is the bride of Christ, but the water and blood are meant to represent humanity and divinity.

By the way, the Eastern Catholic and the Orthodox do mix water and wine for the Eucharist. The only difference is the bread. The Eastern Rites and the Eastern Orthodox use leaven in their bread to represent that Christ is risen and that Christ is the leaven of the Church.

Our western tradition of unleavened bread is a carry over from the Orthodox Jews.
 
CentralFLJames said:
There is more in the piercing than most think. Just as Eve was created from a wound from the side of Adam the Church was created from Jesus from the wound in His side. People also forget that in the Roman Rite of the Mass (not sure about Eastern Rites) we add a drop of water to the wine (water and blood) to represent the union of the people with Christ.

As a side note:
Divine Mercy Sunday, comes up the Sunday after Easter. This special feast day comes directly from a revelation to Sister Faustina Kowalska and relates directly to the imagery of Jesus’ heart being pierced and Divine Mercy being released as a final grace before He comes as the just judge.
Feast of Divine Mercy

http://www.newjerusalem.com/Mercy25K.JPG

James
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion
Have mercy on us and on the whole world. God bless, blessed and happy Easter to you all. Maryj
 
Pax said:
For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God."[Hebrews 9:1-14]

cont. on next post
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Pax, this is the core of the progression ideas presented here. Thank you for this.
Tim_in_MI said:
… She related how in the analogy the people truly were the body of Christ – each playing their role as one cell in the body. Going up to receive the Eucharist nourished them. They returned to their seats, and eventually out into the world to carry Christ with them.
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Thanks Tim. I agree, this is a very good insight, especially for a neophyte.
Pax said:
I just read a great article that is relevant to our discussion. You can find it here:
catholicexchange.com/node/70645
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Pax,
We might have poked around for a while at many of the points so clearly expressed in this article. I thoroughly enjoyed it. If it were not for the copyright I would have pulled it lock, stock and barrel into this discussion. To those who are lurking this thread I highly recommend the article that Pax posted.
 
On the subject of blood and water, Baptism and Eucharist, which the article posted by Pax aptly correlates… I would like to offer my meditation on the second Luminous Mystery, the Wedding Feast at Cana (Jn 2:1-12).

Wine is representative of the work of human hands (as the Liturgy expresses) because the grapes must be cultivated, harvested and crushed etc. So when the wine runs out it is representative of the insufficiency of man’s work. Since the wedding is a union of man and woman who are themselves in the likeness of God, the wedding represents the coming together of Heaven and Earth, the eternal wedding of Christ to His bride the Church… The question then arises, how will the celebration go on when the wine runs out… or how will the union of man and God be celebrated if man’s work falls short? Christ Himself must make up for our insufficiencies. Since no man’s work is sufficient on its own to bring him to God, God must intervene. How does He accomplish this? Jesus first instructs the workers to fill jars with water. This is where every Christian journey begins, with instruction and the purifying waters of Baptism. But even the waters of Baptism are just a beginning because it must be turned to wine before the head waiter approves. And the head waiter does approve, finding the new wine to be superior to the old. The wine Jesus gives is exceeding sufficiency in both quantity and quality, so much so that the head waiter exclaims that it is uncommonly better than the first wine (here’s that progression theme again). Later in the gospel we see how that new wine is poured into new wineskins and refers to the new covenant. The wineskins are the disciples and the wine is the Spirit which is poured into us at Baptism giving us new life. This miracle is a sign that Christ’s ministry and work is exceedingly, abundantly above the ordinary and that it involves the work of man in obedience to His instruction. This obedience and God’s grace lead us with one sacrament to another. In the miracle of the water transformed to wine we begin with the initiating sacrament of Baptism and grow to full communal sacrament through the Eucharist. To see the transition to the Eucharist we must look to the last supper discourses where Jesus tells the disciples that the cup is the new covenant and the wine is His blood which is poured out.

“And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood” ~ Lk 22:20

(The above is taken from the RSV because it translates it as “poured out” rather than shed.)

When we receive His blood (and body, soul and divinity) into ourselves, who have been made new though Baptism, it is like fresh wine poured into fresh wineskins, it is new life poured into us. In this respect Jesus’ last act of dying on the cross bookends with His first miracle at Cana. At the Transfiguration God the Father points out that Jesus is teaching how He fulfills the law. At the same time that the Father is approving of the Son (the way the head waiter approved of the new wine), the Father is also echoing Mary’s words at Cana. Whereas at Cana Mary says, “do whatever he tells you” at the Transfiguration the Father says, “listen to him” (Jn 2:5, Mat 17:5).

And the whole point of the Transfiguration is that Jesus explains to all present that He will accomplish an exodus through His death and resurrection. The same way that the miracle at Cana of turning water to wine makes sense of the Baptism John preached, so too does the Transfiguration make sense of Christ’s death and resurrection.
 
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