Transubstantiation and John 6

[Cinette]

Hi, Po18guy,

Great point!

And, it still requires that some human - UNAIDED by the Holy Spirit - would have to re-write what the inspiried John had written.

As I see it … and, I don’t think I have missed anything - either you take Christ at His Word, or you not only call Him a liar, but then try to invent something to try and make this distorted heresy believable. Trying to personally interpret a verse by adding a word or two is truly deceitful - and, I lay that charge at the feet of Luther, Calvin, Henry VIII, Zwingli and all of the others that throught they could custom tailor the Word of God to fit the ends of Devil!

God bless

The “reformers” tried to re-create Jesus into their own imagine and likeness.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Ceinette,

That is the issue on which everything else orbits. And it is beyond my imagination why any Protestant just does not stand back and simply look at what is going on… and the the lie that Protestantism is!

And, this is not bashing or any other uncharitable act - it is simply pointing out the truth. And, it all comes from Scripture for those who are in the Sola Scriptura frame of mind.

Peter realizes (in a very dim way) that Christ is quite different from anyone Peter has ever known - and Peter sees how far away from Christ’s Perfection he is. So, in Luke 5:8 - Peter declares he is a sinful man! So not only does God know that Peter is sinful but will continue to be sinful - Peter knows it, too! Yet - Christ picks Peter as the leader of the Apostles (First Pope) when Christ entrusts the Keys to Peter alone (Matt 16:19). During the Last Supper, Christ prayed for Peter (and no one else is mentioned) that after Peter would deny Him that Peter would strengthen the others (Luke 22:32). After Peter’s denial the Resurrected Christ tells Peter to feed Christ’s lambs and sheep (John 21:14-18).

There was never any hint that the Pope would be exemp from personal error, misjudgments, and sin. Every Pope has been 100% human. What distinguishes the Bishop of Rome from all others is that the Pope can not teach error. The teachings of the Catholic Church are 100% correct. How men (e.g., Luther condemning Tetzel for selling indulgences) corrupt this teaching are the sins of men - not any failure on God’s part. The Chruch has always taught that Grace can not be bought or sold. And that those who would lead others to Christ lead holy lives. Those 16th Century people who saw and complianed about the these abuses were correct in their observation and knowledge of what should be taking place. They left the area of reform and went into revolt by allowing their pride and self-interest direct their actions. But, that was almost 500 years ago - what is going on now?

Well just look back 100 years ago - does anyone know of a Protestant group in 1912 (2 years before the outbreak of WW I) that appproved of homosexual behavior, that would elevate a practicing homosexual to the office of bishop, that would approve of contraception (the 7th Lambeth Conference that approved of contraception did not happen until 1930), abortion, embryonic stem cell research and same sex marriage? I don’t. And, this is all in less then 100 years! We have slid very far and very fast.

My guess is that young Protestants are fed a steady diet of anti-Catholic material, nurished by such individuals as Jack Chick (here is representative item where Chich claims that Catholics are not Christians: chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp ) and then turned lose to find a preacher who tells them what they want to hear. This approach is promoted with the idea that any individual can interpret Scripture - and, of couse they obviously can - this is why there are 30,000+ groups all claiming that their interpretation is correct!

John 6 is written at no more then then 5th grade level (a 10 year old would be able to read this and write a brief summary of what was said) If a fictional story were read by a 5th grader and the assignment was to write a summary - that student would fail if he added material that totally changed the material presented. I submit that anyone with a 5th grade education can read John 6 and write a brief (<100 words) summary that clearly reflect what took place. I offer this as a request for any Protestant really interested in following their conscience - read all of John 6 as though you had never read it before and summaize it. Do it honestly and then put it aside for about 2 days and then re-read what you wrote. Compare and contrast the honest summary you wrote with what your Protestant group is currently teaching. I’d be happy to see it and respond (I am a college teacher).

God bless

The “reformers” tried to re-create Jesus into their own imagine and likeness.

 

[Cinette]

Hi, Ceinette,

That is the issue on which everything else orbits. And it is beyond my imagination why any Protestant just does not stand back and simply look at what is going on… and the the lie that Protestantism is!

And, this is not bashing or any other uncharitable act - it is simply pointing out the truth. And, it all comes from Scripture for those who are in the Sola Scriptura frame of mind.

Peter realizes (in a very dim way) that Christ is quite different from anyone Peter has ever known - and Peter sees how far away from Christ’s Perfection he is. So, in Luke 5:8 - Peter declares he is a sinful man! So not only does God know that Peter is sinful but will continue to be sinful - Peter knows it, too! Yet - Christ picks Peter as the leader of the Apostles (First Pope) when Christ entrusts the Keys to Peter alone (Matt 16:19). During the Last Supper, Christ prayed for Peter (and no one else is mentioned) that after Peter would deny Him that Peter would strengthen the others (Luke 22:32). After Peter’s denial the Resurrected Christ tells Peter to feed Christ’s lambs and sheep (John 21:14-18).

There was never any hint that the Pope would be exemp from personal error, misjudgments, and sin. Every Pope has been 100% human. What distinguishes the Bishop of Rome from all others is that the Pope can not teach error. The teachings of the Catholic Church are 100% correct. How men (e.g., Luther condemning Tetzel for selling indulgences) corrupt this teaching are the sins of men - not any failure on God’s part. The Chruch has always taught that Grace can not be bought or sold. And that those who would lead others to Christ lead holy lives. Those 16th Century people who saw and complianed about the these abuses were correct in their observation and knowledge of what should be taking place. They left the area of reform and went into revolt by allowing their pride and self-interest direct their actions. But, that was almost 500 years ago - what is going on now?

Well just look back 100 years ago - does anyone know of a Protestant group in 1912 (2 years before the outbreak of WW I) that appproved of homosexual behavior, that would elevate a practicing homosexual to the office of bishop, that would approve of contraception (the 7th Lambeth Conference that approved of contraception did not happen until 1930), abortion, embryonic stem cell research and same sex marriage? I don’t. And, this is all in less then 100 years! We have slid very far and very fast.

My guess is that young Protestants are fed a steady diet of anti-Catholic material, nurished by such individuals as Jack Chick (here is representative item where Chich claims that Catholics are not Christians: chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp ) and then turned lose to find a preacher who tells them what they want to hear. This approach is promoted with the idea that any individual can interpret Scripture - and, of couse they obviously can - this is why there are 30,000+ groups all claiming that their interpretation is correct!

John 6 is written at no more then then 5th grade level (a 10 year old would be able to read this and write a brief summary of what was said) If a fictional story were read by a 5th grader and the assignment was to write a summary - that student would fail if he added material that totally changed the material presented. I submit that anyone with a 5th grade education can read John 6 and write a brief (<100 words) summary that clearly reflect what took place. I offer this as a request for any Protestant really interested in following their conscience - read all of John 6 as though you had never read it before and summaize it. Do it honestly and then put it aside for about 2 days and then re-read what you wrote. Compare and contrast the honest summary you wrote with what your Protestant group is currently teaching. I’d be happy to see it and respond (I am a college teacher).

God bless

*You have made an excellent point and your challenge is simple and honest. I wonder if anyone will take you up on that.

Protestants are Catholics who have been deceived and misled. They have been born into Protestantism for 500 years through no fault of their own and have bought into the thousands of denominations all teaching error claiming that it is through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I have no doubt that they are not denied some graces but since they are not in the Church and therefore cannot make use of the Sacraments their access is limited.

Cinette*

 

[clem456]

As a Catholic, I have learned over the years that it takes a lot to convince a non-Catholic in the Real Presence and that John 6 should be taken literally. My experience has been that the non-Catholics look at me and ask “How can you believe THAT?” whereas I look at them and say “But when you apply the figurative approach it does not make sense.” At least before the recent trend toward fundamentalism and Bible-only churches ther was a little give-and-take, but anymore I share what I know and leave it up to the individual person to decide. Even Jesus did not strong arm the non-believers in John 6. He let them walk away.

Robert Barron’s Catholicism series does a very convincing job of making this difficult concept approachable for the unbelieving. This topic is disc 7 or 8 I believe.

Our parish bought this series and we have been showing an episode per month on a Saturday night with good results. Food and drinks etc…

 

[MollyMac]

Molly - One exercise, and I mean this without intending for it to be heretical, is to add “LIKE” or even “SIMILAR” to the pronouncement of Christ.

John 6:48-51: I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE. Your fathers ate manna in the desert and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven so that a man may eat it and not die. I AM THE LIVING BREAD, which came down from heaven. If any man eats this bread, he shall live forever and the bread which I will give, IS MY FLESH for the life of the world.

John 6:48-51: I am LIKE the bread of life. Your fathers ate manna in the desert and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven so that a man may eat it and not die. I am LIKE the living bread, which came down from heaven. If any man eats this bread, he shall live forever and the bread which I will give, is LIKE my flesh for the life of the world.

Adding “LIKE” just does not work. It is awkward. I suppose you could rewrite the verses to add the figurative tone, but that still does not explain the reaction of those around him. Why would they get upset if Jesus had said “I am like bread.” Would they say “He is saying he is like a loaf of bread?” Adding the terminology to make the sentence figuartive just does not work. I guess I am not clever enough to explain it in an appropriate way to have it make sense. I guess, in the end, you choose to accept the interpretation on either the Catholic Church or someone else. Either way, you are abiding by an authority to help you come to your conclusion. Hope that you have an enjoyable weekend. Take care. Jim

I agree adding “like” is awkward. I understand where you are coming from. So then why is “LIKE” used with The Gate, The Good Shepherd, The Light, ETC… ? If it is not, then Jesus is literally a gate and so on…Like I posted before, He is my bread. He is my lifeline. But I know because I do not believe it as the Roman Catholic Church believes that I am anathematized according to Rome.

 

[MollyMac]

As a Catholic, I have learned over the years that it takes a lot to convince a non-Catholic in the Real Presence and that John 6 should be taken literally. My experience has been that the non-Catholics look at me and ask “How can you believe THAT?” whereas I look at them and say “But when you apply the figurative approach it does not make sense.” At least before the recent trend toward fundamentalism and Bible-only churches ther was a little give-and-take, but anymore I share what I know and leave it up to the individual person to decide. Even Jesus did not strong arm the non-believers in John 6. He let them walk away.

Jim1130, I have never asked “How can you believe THAT?” I understand ‘how’. God can do anything, because He is God (Romans9). I guess it depends who you talk to when it comes down to the “HOW” question, whether it be a Protestant, Agnostic, or my Catholic family member who questioned the doctrine. My faith is Christ and His ability to accomplish everything He says does not waiver. It is a matter of what He meant by the words-literal or figurative.

 

[Cinette]

I agree adding “like” is awkward. I understand where you are coming from. So then why is “LIKE” used with The Gate, The Good Shepherd, The Light, ETC… ? If it is not, then Jesus is literally a gate and so on…Like I posted before, He is my bread. He is my lifeline. But I know because I do not believe it as the Roman Catholic Church believes that I am anathematized according to Rome.

Can you not bring yourself to take Jesus at his word? You have never responded to my question about why Jesus repeated himself 6 times (John 6).

 

[spockrates]

Don’t fall prey to relativism! Protestantism has always been condemned as error - by both Catholic and Orthodox, who believed in, and practiced, the Eucharist for 1,500 years before the rebellion. Both Catholic and Orthodox have the same beliefs in the Eucharistic Presence. Even Luther so believed. It was only after he fell away from the Catholic Church, and others fell away from him, that Christ’s presence was doubted. Think about that word: doubt. Read Genesis 3 to see where and when doubt was first employed.

Look at the big picture: The Holy Spirit, always and everywhere, unites. The Holy Spirit is our consoler, our advocate. The demon, always and everywhere, divides. He sows the seeds of doubt and discouragement.

“Protestantism” is scarcely able to be defined, but its fruits have been division. Division among believers is not from God. Unity is. Our Lord taught us that we will know them by their fruits.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a9/Spy-vs-spy.png/200px-Spy-vs-spy.png

Yes, that makes sense. The devil’s goal is to divide and conquer. But is this his only strategy? Paul writes:

3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

(Galatians 3)

“If you can’t beat them, join them!” Protestants tell me. “Satan has joined the Catholic Church and corrupted her from within!”

Two diabolical strategums of the cold war on the Church–which is the real strategum, and which is the one demonic secret agents have not used, but want others to think they have used? Perhaps the satanic spies are utilizing both to some degree?

 

[spockrates]

Hi all, just passing through I find it hard to believe that a christian would believe;God became man but could not believe in the miricle of miricles meant for our salvation His body and blood.

God Bless
onenow1

Hi, one. Are you saying God does not believe in the Eucharist?

 

[spockrates]

Hi, Spockrates,

We really need to get our time line straight. For 1,500 years we have the uniform teaching and belief of the Real Presence. Then we have the issue of Luther disputing the teachings of the Church - somehow he managed to move from immoral behavior amongst the clergy - to disputing established teachings. Then we note that Luther and Calvin did not agree - and we quickly see that more of those in revolt continued to splinter over the doctrine. Not a surprise - you can see the same thing going on over and over again fueld by personal interpretation of Scripture.

Actually, if you track John 6 - we see some very similar and disturbing behavior between the Jews who walked away from Christ because they did not believe - and the Protestants who are equally adament that ‘…this is a hard saying…’. Yes, Christ was holding His Own, Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity in His Hands when He gave the Blessed Food to His Apostles. It really is a miracle - and, that is where accepting Christ’s Own Words - like a little children - becomes our obvious responsibility.

Just read what is in your own Bible. The word ‘…like…’ does not appear anywhere in John 6 - and I think that is noteworthy.

God bless

Yes, but Protestants, who are just as confident that they are right tell me, “Read your Bible–the word actual does NOT appear in any of the quotes of Christ from the Last Supper!”

So I’m thinking Christ’s words, in this case lend themselves to different interpretations. What I wonder is why. Why didn’t he just use the word actual, or some other choice of words to make him less likely to be misunderstood? If there was no doubt he was speaking literally, the Protestant Reformation would have been less likely to thrive.

 

[Cinette]

Yes, but Protestants, who are just as confident that they are right tell me, “Read your Bible–the word actual does NOT appear in any of the quotes of Christ from the Last Supper!”

So I’m thinking Christ’s words, in this case lend themselves to different interpretations. What I wonder is why. Why didn’t he just use the word actual, or some other choice of words to make him less likely to be misunderstood? If there was no doubt he was speaking literally, the Protestant Reformation would have been less likely to thrive.

*Jesus said to Peter “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church…” “I give you the keys of the Kingdom…” Jesus gave Peter authority and the deposit of faith and the Protestants rejected this.

*

 

[spockrates]

*Jesus said to Peter “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church…” “I give you the keys of the Kingdom…” Jesus gave Peter authority and the deposit of faith and the Protestants rejected this.

*

Yes, that is one valid interpretation of Christ’s words: Peter and his successors are the Rock on which Christ built his Church. Another possible interpretation: The truth Peter spoke is the Rock upon which the Church is built.

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ,[a] the Son of the living God.”

(Matthew 16)

 

[Cinette]

Yes, that is one valid interpretation of Christ’s words: Peter and his successors are the Rock on which Christ built his Church. Another possible interpretation: The truth Peter spoke is the Rock upon which the Church is built.

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ,[a] the Son of the living God.”

(Matthew 16)

What about Authority, Apostolic Succession and the Deposit of Faith? The Holy Spirit was sent to guide the Church into all truth. What about the fruits of 2000 years?

 

[Cinette]

Yes, that is one valid interpretation of Christ’s words: Peter and his successors are the Rock on which Christ built his Church. Another possible interpretation: The truth Peter spoke is the Rock upon which the Church is built.

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ,[a] the Son of the living God.”

(Matthew 16)

*Those words of Peter also show how the Father condoned the choice of Peter. Beautiful and true words.

Isn’t it amazing that Peter was chosen in spite of his betrayal? We are all sinners and yet Jesus died to save us. We are God’s children - all of us - and we need to respond* to Jesus’ love and sacrifice. We need to obey.

Oh and how long are you going to stay in the closet???

Thank you
Cinette

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Spockrates,

Tell 'ya what - I think we can easily move away from a, “We’re all right!” type approach. But, this will take just a wee-bit of effort. Here is the challenge:

Sit down and read all of John 6 in one sitting. Just read this as you would read any document - without bias or pre-conceived ideas - like you are reading it for the first time. When you have finished, write a 100-word summary of what you rad. In my opinion, John 5 can be read by a 5th grader, who could then do a written assignment clearly identifying what he read. So, if you really want to see what is what - accept the challenge, and if you wish, share your summary with the group. In my opinion 100-words does not give anyone a lot of latitude - it requires the writer to capture the heart of the matter and present it to others.

That way, we can avoid such issues as words that do not appear in the text. Simple straight forward reading and comprehension with a short summary to demonstrate that all is as it should be - this is all that is being asked.

God bless

Yes, but Protestants, who are just as confident that they are right tell me, “Read your Bible–the word actual does NOT appear in any of the quotes of Christ from the Last Supper!”

So I’m thinking Christ’s words, in this case lend themselves to different interpretations. What I wonder is why. Why didn’t he just use the word actual, or some other choice of words to make him less likely to be misunderstood? If there was no doubt he was speaking literally, the Protestant Reformation would have been less likely to thrive.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Cinette,

You know… I was wondering the same thing myself…

Can’t quite figure if he locked himself in or out…

God bless

*Those words of Peter also show how the Father condoned the choice of Peter. Beautiful and true words.

Isn’t it amazing that Peter was chosen in spite of his betrayal? We are all sinners and yet Jesus died to save us. We are God’s children - all of us - and we need to respond* to Jesus’ love and sacrifice. We need to obey.

Oh and how long are you going to stay in the closet???

Thank you
Cinette

 

[BrunoMaria]

Why didn’t (Jesus Christ) … make him less likely to be misunderstood?

A similar question Jesus’ disciples asked in Matt 13,10 and Jesus gave the answer right away in Mt 13,11: "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says: ‘You shall indeed hear but never understand, and you shall indeed see but never perceive. For this people’s heart has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should perceive with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal them.’

So, let’s make sure to belong to those to whom it had been given to understand, for they kept doubts away, - and not to those to whom it has not been given and is refused, for the clear reason of doubting in the first place and keeping up doubts; and therefore will hardly ever receive the gift of comprehension - for God knows they’d misuse it.

Yours
Bruno

 

[spockrates]

What about Authority, Apostolic Succession and the Deposit of Faith? The Holy Spirit was sent to guide the Church into all truth. What about the fruits of 2000 years?

Yes, I think the post-Penacost historical argument is one of the strongest in favor of Catholicism in the Protestant-Catholic debate. With few exceptions, the early church fathers wrote of the Real Presence in the Eucharist. If it is a lie from the pit of hell that smells like smoke, then it seems to be one that deceived a great many extremely early in Church history. I was surprised when I began researching early Church history that there appeared to be no debate among Christians regarding this, but there was plenty of debate about Gnosticism.

 

[spockrates]

*Those words of Peter also show how the Father condoned the choice of Peter. Beautiful and true words.

Isn’t it amazing that Peter was chosen in spite of his betrayal? We are all sinners and yet Jesus died to save us. We are God’s children - all of us - and we need to respond* to Jesus’ love and sacrifice. We need to obey.

Oh and how long are you going to stay in the closet???

Thank you
Cinette

Yes, but the question still remains for the one trying to decide: Is the rock who Peter is, or is it instead what he said?

 

[spockrates]

Hi, Spockrates,

Tell 'ya what - I think we can easily move away from a, “We’re all right!” type approach. But, this will take just a wee-bit of effort. Here is the challenge:

Sit down and read all of John 6 in one sitting. Just read this as you would read any document - without bias or pre-conceived ideas - like you are reading it for the first time. When you have finished, write a 100-word summary of what you rad. In my opinion, John 5 can be read by a 5th grader, who could then do a written assignment clearly identifying what he read. So, if you really want to see what is what - accept the challenge, and if you wish, share your summary with the group. In my opinion 100-words does not give anyone a lot of latitude - it requires the writer to capture the heart of the matter and present it to others.

That way, we can avoid such issues as words that do not appear in the text. Simple straight forward reading and comprehension with a short summary to demonstrate that all is as it should be - this is all that is being asked.

God bless

I suppose I’ve written more than 10 times that many words on John 6 in discussion threads such as this, Tom. But it took just 12 words to convince me.