Transubstantiation and logic

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ProdglArchitect:
In order to understand Transubstantiation, you have to understand the concepts of substance and accidents .
Aside from the Eucharist, is there any instance in everyday life of a phenomenon that can only be explained by using the terms “substance” and “accidents”?
The fundamental properties of mathematics and shape spring to mind. In mathematics, there are many basic substances we use to solve problems. Addition is a mathematical substance that is the adding of one number to another. That is its substance, whereas it has many accidents in the numbers we use for a particular problem. Similarly, as with my examples of squares and triangles, we use the accidental numbers of a shape in order to understand it’s substance.
 
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Can a Catholic believe in the Real Presence but not in Transubstantiation? Can we accept one but reject the other?
As I understand it, the Real Presence is dogma. ‘Transubstantiation’ is not. (It’s an authoritative description of ‘how’ the Eucharist is the Eucharist, but it’s not doctrinal, AFAIK.)
 
If we are going with the substance/accidents distinction (which, I agree, could very much use an update/modern equivalent), then it is actually incorrect to say that a thing is, at minimum, its accidents. It has its accidents, but they are not essential to what it is.

And yes, in substance/accidents terms, even DNA and molecular structure (or, at least, the way we perceive them with senses or instruments) are accidental, not substantial. Substance is the underlying “thingness,” not any of the empirical aspects of the thing. That’s certainly weird — in all normal cases, the substance of a thing matches its accidents, to the point that most modern ontology doesn’t talk about substance as a distinct thing. If I recall correctly, even Aristotle would have been irritated at the use of his terms to apply to a special case in which substance does not match accidents; one of his big differences with Plato was his denial of ideal thingness as existing independently of individual examples of the thing.

What “goes away” in transubstantiation is the invisible quality of “breadness” and “wineness,” replaced by “Jesusness” without changing any of the sensible or measurable properties of the elements. Obviously this is not a scientific claim, or something intended to put forth evidence in favor of Christianity’s supernatural claims. Even before the science of atoms and molecules was fully understood, the theologians talking about transubstantiation knew they weren’t talking about something that could be detected or demonstrated. It’s something for us, inside the belief system. The reason for responding to the OP is not to present empirical evidence for the occurrence, but merely to dispel the notion that it’s not even logically coherent.

As others have noted, what goes on is a mystery for which transubstantiation is merely the best explanation we have so far. Jesus just said, “This is my body/blood,” and the majority understanding for most of the history of Christianity was that He did not mean that merely symbolically, even though there is no sign of change (though I don’t think anyone would deny that there is symbolic value to the use of a solid staple food for flesh and red liquid for blood). When the substance/accidents distinction of some early philosophers became available to Christian thinkers in the West centuries later, some bright spark thought, “Hey, what if what goes on at the consecration can be described as the one special case in which underlying substance is swapped out without changing the accidents ‘above’ it?” The less analytical East, meanwhile, is still like, “Enh, it happens. Who cares if we can put words to exactly how?”
 
If I recall correctly, even Aristotle would have been irritated at the use of his terms to apply to a special case in which substance does not match accidents;
For Aristotle, if I recall correctly, the “substance” of a thing is what doesn’t change while “accidents” can change without altering the substance. For instance, I can take a chair home from the furniture store, and it’s still a chair. Moving it from one place to another made no difference to its chairness, which is what Aristotle calls its “substance”. Or I can paint a white chair red, and it’s still a chair, and so on. I can even stand on it to change a lightbulb, and using it for a different purpose doesn’t mean the chair has turned into a ladder. It is still a chair. Its “substance,” in the Aristotelian sense, remains unchanged.

But in Aquinas’ explanation of the Eucharist, it’s the substance that changes while the accidents stay the same. I don’t think Aristotle ever envisaged anything of that kind, did he? Aquinas has borrowed Aristotle’s terminology, but he seems to be assigning new definitions to the Aristotelian terms “substance” and “accident”. It might not be going too far to say Aquinas is standing Aristotle on his head.
 
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We can use Aristotle’s philosophic while not necessarily conforming to what he saw as the limits. We also should not claim that, because Aristotle intended the substance to remain constant, that God could not, in this case, change the substance while allowing the accidents to remain intact.

As with all miracles, the Eucharist cannot be explained by normal means or methods, it is an act that defies the normal. Just because it happens thousands of times a day across the whole of the Earth doesn’t make the transubstantiation any less of a miracle.
 
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But in Aquinas’ explanation of the Eucharist, it’s the substance that changes while the accidents stay the same. I don’t think Aristotle ever envisaged anything of that kind, did he? Aquinas has borrowed Aristotle’s terminology, but he seems to be assigning new definitions to the Aristotelian terms “substance” and “accident”. It might not be going too far to say Aquinas is standing Aristotle on his head.
He is certainly proposing an unusual situation, in which (by miraculous intervention) substance is changed while accidents are just preserved without inhering in a substance. Aristotle would at least raise an eyebrow. But he is still using “substance” for the underlying reality that usually doesn’t change just because its accidents do.

I suspect whoever came up with the technical terms used by the Council of Nicaea to define the Trinity had never encountered something that was one ousia and three hypostases, either, but the terminology was still useful in trying to express something unique and outside normal experience.
 
Exactly. So what purpose is served by attempting to explain it using Aristotle’s terminology?
Because they can give us a philosophical basis for understanding, even if we can’t fully explain the reality. That’s as good as we can do when it comes to the things of God. We will never fully grasp Him, as He is eternal and infinite. That doesn’t stop us from doing the best we can.
 
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If this is really so and it is published in a scientific journal with peer review, then we should all convert to Christianity, in particular Catholicism, for this would be the strongest proof of Jesus’ divinity. Have you found the link?
 
Christian thinkers in the West centuries later, some bright spark thought, “Hey, what if what goes on at the consecration can be described as the one special case in which underlying substance is swapped out without changing the accidents ‘above’ it?” The less analytical East, meanwhile, is still like, “Enh, it happens. Who cares if we can put words to exactly how?”
And poof, all this goes away with the symbolic only understanding.

But thank you for the thoughtful post.
 
I haven’t had time to look again, I’m sorry.

From the looking I did last Friday, it really does appear that it’s not available online, or at least not in English. If I knew the original Italian title for the paper I might have more luck. It simply looks like the age of the paper has excluded it from the internet’s archives.

I’ll try to look for it some more later today.

In case you missed it, this document provides a summation of the study’s findings. It lists some dates, which may be useful to my search, though they’re all in roman numerals, which I’m not exactly adept in XD.

THE EUCHARISTIC RELICS OF LANCIANO IN BIOLOGIC RESEARCH
 
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First study physical laws before metaphysics, as a rule of thumb. I am sure you are smarter than me.
 
And poof, all this goes away with the symbolic only understanding.
Exactly. But, for the first millennium-plus years of the Church, the “real presence” was the undisputed teaching of the Church.

And so, at the Reformation, how do we characterize what happened, when we see a great big “poof, all this goes away”? 🤔 😉
 
Yes, that does make it easy. But is “easy” the same as “correct”?
Not any more correct than sophisticated, philosophical or scientific.

It is not easy to believe anything of God, simple or not. Certainly not natural to man.
 
But, for the first millennium-plus years of the Church, the “real presence” was the undisputed teaching of the Church.
Was it? And which “real presence”?

As I said before, the Church was not wrong for 1500 years, just as any rightness did not originate with reformation.

Jesus was told the same thing by the religious leaders . Could sons of Abraham ever be wrong, even after 1500 years? Nothing “new” or reforming to be had?
And so, at the Reformation, how do we characterize what happened, when we see a great big “poof, all this goes away” ?
For many it has. And you can not distinguish any spiritual lack in them from those for whom it hasn’t.
 
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Was it? And which “real presence”?
Yes.

What do you mean by “which ‘real presence’”?
Jesus was told the same thing by the religious leaders . Could sons of Abraham ever be wrong, even after 1500 years?
“sons of Abraham” is quite different than “the Church that the Son of God literally founded and promised to protect”… 😉
For many it has.
So… how do you characterize “1500 years and then poof”?
And you can not distinguish any spiritual lack in them from those for whom it hasn’t.
That’s not the standard. What I can see isn’t the issue. Whether it conforms to Jesus’ intent for us is the issue… 😉
 
What do you mean by “which ‘real presence’”?
That there is more than one, even more than two understandings of real presence.
sons of Abraham” is quite different than “the Church that the Son of God literally founded and promised to protect”… 😉

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mcq72:
The Son of God quite literally founded Israel also, and guided said covenants that looked forward to His blood propitiation, just as we look back to it in this last covenant.

The same Holy Spirit was with them, and sometimes in them, and sometimes empowered them, if even only a remnant.

Jesus was their I Am, that Rock in the wilderness.

All the covenants are still conditional, for even grace can be to no avail to some. Christ also asks of this covenant times, “will there be any faith when I return?”. For sure a remnant will be faithful.
 
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