Transubstantiation and Real Presence

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Think of it this way…

When Jesus was washing the feet of the Apostles, and this happened…
Peter said to him, “You shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part in me.”
… was Jesus speaking symbolically or literally, or both???
 
Think of it this way…

When Jesus was washing the feet of the Apostles, and this happened…
Peter said to him, “You shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part in me.”
… was Jesus speaking symbolically or literally, or both???
My answer is both.
 
I think there is unity among the denominations, and the Catechism definitely acknowledges this. But His Eucharist table is the outward sign of full unity.

My only difficult understanding of the Catholic position, is the fact that Jesus says “…Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;*he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life…”
If the literal Communion understanding is applied, how do those who reject the Catholic Communion have life in them, without contradicting what Jesus says?

Still, the symbolic only Communion interpretation lacks significant conformity to this passage and the Lord’s Supper. So I am convicted to devote to the Catholic Communion, as there is greater unity behind the Catholic Teaching.
If I understand you correctly you feel the CC really should be teaching that those who do not accept the Catholic Communion do not have the “life in you” that Jesus refers to?

If your answer is yes, then you maybe surprised that I think I agree with you.
 
I think there is unity among the denominations, and the Catechism definitely acknowledges this. But His Eucharist table is the outward sign of full unity.

My only difficult understanding of the Catholic position, is the fact that Jesus says “…Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;*he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life…”
If the literal Communion understanding is applied, how do those who reject the Catholic Communion have life in them, without contradicting what Jesus says?

Still, the symbolic only Communion interpretation lacks significant conformity to this passage and the Lord’s Supper. So I am convicted to devote to the Catholic Communion, as there is greater unity behind the Catholic Teaching.
One must be worthy to have eternal life.

1 Cor 11:27-28

27 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice.
 
I think there is unity among the denominations, and the Catechism definitely acknowledges this. But His Eucharist table is the outward sign of full unity.

My only difficult understanding of the Catholic position, is the fact that Jesus says “…Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;*he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life…”
If the literal Communion understanding is applied, how do those who reject the Catholic Communion have life in them, without contradicting what Jesus says?

Still, the symbolic only Communion interpretation lacks significant conformity to this passage and the Lord’s Supper. So I am convicted to devote to the Catholic Communion, as there is greater unity behind the Catholic Teaching.
What do you think about the souls of infants and toddlers who were baptized at the Catholic church, but have not come of age to receive communion? Do they receive life at baptism or first communion?
 
Actually, we are, like the host, instantly substantially changed into new creatures, we who are baptized; and our new creaturehood was confirmed by the Body of Christ.

You see us and think you are seeing someone you know, you call us Americans or (?) but we are aliens, foreigners literally and actually, in your midst, living among you but you do not know where we are actually from - we are in the world, in the United States, but we are actually and literally not of the world. We are actually and literally sons of God walking in the midst of you. The Kingdom established by God is near you because we are dwelling amongst you.

Just as one does not, cannot, say and know “this is the body of Christ” and “this is the blood of Christ” that I eat and drink, so he also does not know that we are not from here, we whom he sees. We are citizens of a Different City and a different People.
Is that the official teaching that people are transubstantiated in baptism? Or is it an analogy you are suggesting?

People are changed spiritually, and although their body that got wet is still mortal and will die, now their souls will be eternal. The person’s status has changed as they are now adopted by God. I don’t think either of these changes would qualify as being the same thing as transubstantiation during communion. Or what don’t I understand?:confused:
 
If I understand you correctly you feel the CC really should be teaching that those who do not accept the Catholic Communion do not have the “life in you” that Jesus refers to?

If your answer is yes, then you maybe surprised that I think I agree with you.
Yes, and here is what I believe the Holy Spirit shows me…

“Eating” and “drinking” have two possible meanings. There is literal and metaphoric. So when Jesus said to Peter, “If I do not wash you, you have no part in me” He was also talking about two meanings of washing. He literally washed their feet, and He metaphorically washed their feet.

When we “eat” and “drink” His flesh and blood, we are called to do so in two ways. We literally eat the Word (who became incarnate flesh, and is offered Sacramentally) and metaphorically eat the Word (who speaks to us through Scripture and Spirit). The common ground with both meanings is belief.

Another aspect of the Bread of Life discourse that Jesus was conveying is that to eat and drink of Him is to “remain” in Him. So I believe Heestablished the Sacrament of Communion as the fullfilment of belief in His Word and work of the Cross.

We can begin to eat and drink of Him through belief, which calls us to Baptism first, and remaining in Him through belief, which is accomplished through His Eucharist.
 
Is that the official teaching that people are transubstantiated in baptism? Or is it an analogy you are suggesting?

People are changed spiritually, and although their body that got wet is still mortal and will die, now their souls will be eternal. The person’s status has changed as they are now adopted by God. I don’t think either of these changes would qualify as being the same thing as transubstantiation during communion. Or what don’t I understand?:confused:
Transubstantion means a change of substance (essence - what a thing is). A human being does not change substance (essence). The soul is eternal and will be in heaven or hell, with a resurrected body, in any case.
 
If the appearance, taste, texture and chemical composition of an object remains the same, in what ways does it change?
It changes by becoming something else.

How can we separate the physical properties of a thing from the thing itself, you ask? Take an example. The odor of wine is not wine. It is a property of wine, but it is not the wine itself. Even the collective properties of wine - how it feels, tastes, etc. - are not the wine itself. They are simply that, properties. What is the thing that underlies those properties? That is what philosophers call “substance.” It is this that changes – from being one substance (that of bread and wine) to another (Christ’s body and blood). Actually, because of concomitance the accidents of Christ’s body and blood are also present, albeit imperceptibly, but that’s another discussion.
 
Yes, and here is what I believe the Holy Spirit shows me…

“Eating” and “drinking” have two possible meanings. There is literal and metaphoric. So when Jesus said to Peter, “If I do not wash you, you have no part in me” He was also talking about two meanings of washing. He literally washed their feet, and He metaphorically washed their feet.

When we “eat” and “drink” His flesh and blood, we are called to do so in two ways. We literally eat the Word (who became incarnate flesh, and is offered Sacramentally) and metaphorically eat the Word (who speaks to us through Scripture and Spirit). The common ground with both meanings is belief.

Another aspect of the Bread of Life discourse that Jesus was conveying is that to eat and drink of Him is to “remain” in Him. So I believe Heestablished the Sacrament of Communion as the fullfilment of belief in His Word and work of the Cross.

We can begin to eat and drink of Him through belief, which calls us to Baptism first, and remaining in Him through belief, which is accomplished through His Eucharist.
Nice job.

This is how i interpret John 6. It’s both literal through Eucharist and metaphorical.

Scripture is layered like a onion
 
Do you think he converts the protons, neutrons and electrons from the original bread and wine into flesh and blood and then back into the chemical makeup for the elements?

No. The appearances of the chemical makeup of the bread and wine before the consecration remains the same after the consecration. The chemical makeup, including the protons, neutrons, and electrons of the elemental atoms of bread and wine can be sensibly observed (I’m not sure electrons have been actually observed) due to the accidents of the substances of bread and wine. Philosophically, protons, neutrons, and electrons are not matter in itself but they are parts of an elemental atom or substance made out of matter. In transubstantiation, the matter of the bread and wine or if you prefer the matter of the protons, neutrons, and electrons is withdrawn and converted into the pre-existent matter of Christ’s body and blood while the accidents or appearances of the bread and wine or of the protons, neutrons, and electrons remain. Protons and neutrons are sensible and observable due to accidents and firstly of the first accident of a material substance which is quantity or extension. Quantity extends matter which is one of the two essential components or principles of a material substance (the other principle is the substantial form) into three dimensional space and into the arrangement of the substance’s component material parts. Shape or figure is another accident which gives shape and figure to matter or a body or its parts, and there is also color, weight, density, rarity, surface, and others. A material substance which has matter as one of its substantial parts considered in itself apart from the accidents is indivisible and invisible and does not come under the observation of any of the senses. Transubstantiation is not about converting the protons, neutrons, and electrons of the bread and wine which are visible accidents or appearances of the matter of the bread and wine (accidents which are forms such as quantity and shape make matter sensible), but it is about converting the matter which underlies the visible accidents yet leaving the accidents or appearances of the bread and wine remaining. I think you made a pretty good remark in a previous post in that modern science seems to view substance in some ways at least in what traditional catholic philosophy would view as accidents.
Or do the original particles cease to exist and new particles are created by Jesus?
 
Nice job.

This is how i interpret John 6. It’s both literal through Eucharist and metaphorical.

Scripture is layered like a onion
I have to confess that I am some what shocked. Am I the only non-Catholic who has understood that there nothing metaphorical in John 6? If most Catholics see it as you do I have somehow missed that explanation.:o
 
I think there is unity among the denominations, and the Catechism definitely acknowledges this. But His Eucharist table is the outward sign of full unity.

My only difficult understanding of the Catholic position, is the fact that Jesus says “…Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;*he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life…”
If the literal Communion understanding is applied, how do those who reject the Catholic Communion have life in them, without contradicting what Jesus say
 
This is a logical question me as well. Why does the CC want and proclaim unity with any other Christian at all if they do not accept transubstantiation?
Because Baptism and belief bring some into the life of Jesus.
I really do not understand your position here. If the metaphoric position is applied to the passage then it makes sense to me and I can understand why the CC would then see unity with all believers because it is only by “eating and drinking” by belief and acceptance of His teaching that gives the eternal life we all share in.
But do all Christians accept His Teachings about Communion? If there is one Bread (loaf) then there would be unity among belief. As it is, there is division. And there is division because of our hardness of hearts. I wish I knew the answers my friend. All we can do is follow what we each are convicted of. And we must accept our crosses and await His judgment. I am striving to overcome sin, and receive His body and blood in a worthy manner. It is an impossible task on our own power. We must be so humble, and always convert to do what is right.
 
Yes, and here is what I believe the Holy Spirit shows me…

“Eating” and “drinking” have two possible meanings. There is literal and metaphoric. So when Jesus said to Peter, “If I do not wash you, you have no part in me” He was also talking about two meanings of washing. He literally washed their feet, and He metaphorically washed their feet.

When we “eat” and “drink” His flesh and blood, we are called to do so in two ways. We literally eat the Word (who became incarnate flesh, and is offered Sacramentally) and metaphorically eat the Word (who speaks to us through Scripture and Spirit). The common ground with both meanings is belief.

Another aspect of the Bread of Life discourse that Jesus was conveying is that to eat and drink of Him is to “remain” in Him.
So I believe Heestablished the Sacrament of Communion as the fullfilment of belief in His Word and work of the Cross.
 
What exactly does transubstantiation mean? I seem to encounter so many different understandings and explanations, and I just get more and more confused. Many explanations refer to old language of substance and accident which are hard to understand today. What is the best way to describe the specific change that occurs in the bread and wine during consecration using 21st century terminology?
I’ll take a swing at trying to simplify this, but please forgive any errors and feel free to correct me. :o

Aristotle made a distinction between the essential and accidental properties of a thing. For example, a chair can be made of wood or metal, but this is accidental to its being a chair: it is in essence still a chair regardless of the material from which it is made.

To put this in technical terms, an accident is a property which has no necessary connection or effect to the essence or substance of the thing being described.

Catholic theologians such as Thomas Aquinas have employed the Aristotelian concepts of substance and accident in articulating the theology of the Eucharist, particularly the transubstantiation of bread and wine into body and blood.

The accidents of the appearance of bread and wine do not change, but the entire substance changes from bread and wine to the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ.
The term substance is challenging because today we primarily define substance as the chemical composition of something which causes the physical attributes and accidents. What we consider substance today seems closer to the definition of accidents from centuries ago. Essence may be a better term, but I don’t know if I completely understand what is truly meant by essence.
To say that we primarily define substance this way is a bit of a generalization. The definition you used for substance is not the only definition we use today, but one of many. For example, when referring to chemistry, the definition you used is proper, but when referring to philosophy, substance has a different meaning:

The meaning of the word is dependent upon both the audience, subject, and context.

The word substance is used in this case because it is contained within and is the subject of the word transubstantiation which is the English version of the Latin word transsubstantiatio. It contains the following word elements:

** trans** - “to cross over, across, beyond, through, on the other side of, to go beyond”
substantia - translates Greek ousia meaning “that which is one’s own, one’s substance or property; the being, essence, or nature of anything.”

The Greek word for transubstantiation is metousiosis which means “a change of essence, inner reality.”

The word essence comes from the Latin word essentia, meaning “being, essence,” (to translate Greek ousia “being, essence”) from essent and esse which mean “to be.”

Because the word transubstantiation itself is based on these philosophical terms and their accompanying definitions, one must use those definitions when attempting to understand transubstantiation.

Ultimately, transubstantiation explains what has happened, but not exactly how… That is the whole “mystery” part 👍

If truly want to understand the concept and you want more info, I suggest exploring the following:

The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist - Transubstantiation
Excellent answer to the question.👍
 
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