Salvation isn’t a math equation. Salvation is a gift, a gift of God. You either possess it or you don’t. You don’t work FOR it.I do not posess the answer for '2 times pi’. If I DID posess the answer, there would be nothing to work out, because I already have worked it out.
So when Jesus said His sheep shall never perish, He didn’t really mean it?As Catholics we can say we HAVE been saved (baptism), we are CURRENTLY being saved (the sacraments, avoiding mortal sin, grace), and by living Christ’s laws and commandments, we HOPE to be saved at our judgement.
But you can’t guarantee you’ve been saved. Live a life of unrepentant sin and your still guaranteed salvation because you’ve proclaimed “Jesus is Lord?” This is where “faith and reason” come in to play. Christ did say “Not all those that say ‘Lord, Lord’ will inherit the Kingdom of God.” Looks to me that this is possibly focused towards the “once saved, always saved” crowd. You can lose your salvation.
Do they or do they not have free will? Where is your scriptural warrant for dividing God into will and desire?So when Jesus said His sheep shall never perish, He didn’t really mean it?
One verse doesn’t determine context. The ENTIRE chapter is about the judgment of the JEWS.[BIBLEDRB]Romans 2:10[/BIBLEDRB]
Wonderful verse speaking of those born again. Jews under the law, those spoken of in Romans 2, have not been born again.[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 12:13[/BIBLEDRB]
See above.[BIBLEDRB]Colossians 3:11[/BIBLEDRB]
Did you even read it? Start at chapter 18 and read through. Maybe you will come to understand why the Great White Throne judgment is for unbelievers.What makes you think that Revelation is in chronological order?
It isn’t a timeline of His life. It is symbolic of what happens to Israel.What makes you think the m Why is the birth of Jesus (Ch12) depicted as being after the Lamb is shown reigning?
My point is this: if a “saved” person is not sinless, then they must be saved from something other than sin. That is, such would be the case were their salvation total, which seems to be implied by the conception of salvation as a one-time event. If you sin, you quite obviously are not completely rescued from it.Says who? Where is it stated and taught in Scripture that the saved are sinless?
Were this complete, we wouldn’t sin. That’s my point. What happens when you have no desire to fulfill the flesh? You don’t fulfill it–you don’t sin. What happens when you walk in the Spirit? You walk in Him–again, you don’t sin. That is, at least, if these things are complete in you. You do sin, however, because you still wish to fulfill the desires of the flesh, and you still fail to strive to walk in the Spirit, just like everybody–or nearly everybody–else on earth.Wrong. We sin because we are sinners. Salvation doesn’t change that fact, it changes us to where we no longer want to fulfill the desires of the flesh, but strive to walk in the Spirit.
You do not comprehend the nature of a sheep. If you did, you would understand why believers are likened to them. Sheep are DUMB animals. They NEED a shepherd or else they would be lost forever. They follow their leader. Jesus isn’t just spitting in the wind when He says that His sheep follow Him and they shall never perish.Do they or do they not have free will?
Can one lose salvation?Salvation isn’t a math equation. Salvation is a gift, a gift of God. You either possess it or you don’t. You don’t work FOR it.
Would you like to post the infallible interpretation of that verse for us from your infallible church?
So then, what happens to them, according to you, when Jesus returns for the saved?One verse doesn’t determine context. The ENTIRE chapter is about the judgment of the JEWS. Wonderful verse speaking of those born again. Jews under the law, those spoken of in Romans 2, have not been born again.
But of course. We are saved from the wrath of God.My point is this: if a “saved” person is not sinless, then they must be saved from something other than sin.
That is not true. As long as we are in the flesh, we will sin, it is our nature. We are being conformed to His image, being sanctified, THAT is a lifelong process. Sanctification and justification are not one in the same.Were this complete, we wouldn’t sin. That’s my point.
Sheep can, and do, wander off. They can run from the sheppard, heading towards a cliff. The Sheppard can chase them and call to them to come back, but if the sheep keeps running away and falls off the cliff, it was ,in a sheep’s sense, the sheep’s decision (or free will, if you may) to continue on that path of destruction and ignore the calls of the sheppard.Do they or do they not have free will? Where is your scriptural warrant for dividing God into will and desire?
The same thing that happens to anyone that is an unbeliever. Isreal, the Jews, are the apple of God’s eye. He will save the remnant.So then, what happens to them, according to you, when Jesus returns for the saved?
Exactly. You can be given the gift, accept it at first, and afterwards reject it. It is spoken of in John 15:1-10. In it He is exhorting his disciples to remain pruned on the vine and not to fall away from Him:Can one lose salvation?
And your right, salvation is a gift of God. But you can deny the gift. And through your own free will and ACTIONS say “no thank you” to the gift.
1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. 2 He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit. 3 You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you. 4 Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. 6 Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you. 8 By this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples. 9 As the Father loves me, so I also love you. Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.
So, you are suggesting that Jesus, who is the GOOD Shepherd, and says that His sheep shall NEVER PERISH, really isn’t that good a shepherd and some WILL perish? Am I understanding you correctly? Jesus, who said He will lose none that the Father has given to Him, IS going to lose some?Sheep can, and do, wander off. They can run from the sheppard, heading towards a cliff. The Sheppard can chase them and call to them to come back, but if the sheep keeps running away and falls off the cliff, it was ,in a sheep’s sense, the sheep’s decision (or free will, if you may) to continue on that path of destruction and ignore the calls of the sheppard.
No.Can one lose salvation?
The only ones that deny the gift are unbelievers. Those that the Father has given to Jesus WILL come to Him. Those are His words, mine. Jesus also says that He will lose none that the Father has given to Him. And also says that His sheep shall never perish.And your right, salvation is a gift of God. But you can deny the gift. And through your own free will and ACTIONS say “no thank you” to the gift.
Please explain your scriptural basis for this.The same thing that happens to anyone that is an unbeliever.
Since only Jesus knows which sheep the Father has given Him, I would say you’re question isn’t a valid one. Unless you’re privy to things only Jesus and the Father know…So, you are suggesting that Jesus, who is the GOOD Shepherd, and says that His sheep shall NEVER PERISH, really isn’t that good a shepherd and some WILL perish? Am I understanding you correctly? Jesus, who said He will lose none that the Father has given to Him, IS going to lose some?
Wrong. Christ did not give us a church. Christ BUILT His church, and believers ARE His church.Christ gave us a Church (the Catholic Church), not a book.
No, God gave us Scripture. Why do you insist on glorifying man for what God has done?The Catholic Church then gave us scripture, the bible.
Could you post for me, all the Scripture your church has infallibly interpreted?Therefore, shouldn’t the Catholic Church be the one to interpret scripture correctly (bound on earth will be bound in heaven, loosed on earth will be loosed in heaven)?
That isn’t relevant to the fact that He will lose none that the Father has given to Him. Not relevant to the fact that His sheep shall never perish.Since only Jesus knows which sheep the Father has given Him, I would say you’re question isn’t a valid one. Unless you’re privy to things only Jesus and the Father know…
If what you say is true, then please exlpain to me the passage I quoted from John 15:1-10 where Jesus was talking to those who already believed in Him.The only ones that deny the gift are unbelievers. Those that the Father has given to Jesus WILL come to Him. Those are His words, mine. Jesus also says that He will lose none that the Father has given to Him. And also says that His sheep shall never perish.