Transubstantiation: What changes?

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Can one lose salvation?

And your right, salvation is a gift of God. But you can deny the gift. And through your own free will and ACTIONS say “no thank you” to the gift.
That is correct.

byfaithalone, please clarify for me (for us all) what it takes, in your opinion, for us to get to Heaven, specifically. I can’t help wondering if we’re just having a communication breakdown here. Clearly, we differ in our interpretation of scripture in many ways, so, in your own words, what does a person do to be considered “saved”?
 
No.

The only ones that deny the gift are unbelievers. Those that the Father has given to Jesus WILL come to Him. Those are His words, mine. Jesus also says that He will lose none that the Father has given to Him. And also says that His sheep shall never perish.

And also keep in mind that believers are kept by the power of God. Unless you think you can override the will of God, then those that He keeps are kept forever.
But what if I say that I am a believer in Christ (and therefore saved), but live a life of holding grudges, seeking revenge, ignoring the poor, hungry, rationalizing all my sins and have no regrets or sorrow over this. Am I still saved? Will I go to heaven?
 
Wrong. Christ did not give us a church. Christ BUILT His church, and believers ARE His church.
No, God gave us Scripture. Why do you insist on glorifying man for what God has done??
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 22:7-9[/BIBLEDRB]
He didn’t say “why are you persecuting the Church.”

Jesus and His Church are One.
 
But what if I say that I am a believer in Christ (and therefore saved), but live a life of holding grudges, seeking revenge, ignoring the poor, hungry, rationalizing all my sins and have no regrets or sorrow over this. Am I still saved? Will I go to heaven?
I can’t believe you are even saying this. Don’t you understand what it means to be born from above?

Anyone can say they are a believer. If there is no change of heart, you were never born again. God makes us NEW creations in Christ.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
 
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 22:7-9[/BIBLEDRB]
He didn’t say “why are you persecuting the Church.”

Jesus and His Church are One.
No one said otherwise. Jesus is the Head of His church, we are His body.

Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

Colossians 1:18
And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
 
But of course. We are saved from the wrath of God.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
All right. Then I have a few questions:
  1. What is the wrath of God
  2. What is it directed towards?
 
No, not at all.

The substance has **truly **changed.

It is no longer bread or wine. It is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ. Only the accidents remain giving the appearance of bread and wine.
That’s what I learned in the 1950’s from some very stick nuns. We were told that we are receiving the actual BODY and BLOOD of Jesus. We were not to ever touch it nor were we to chew it. I never understood it, I never questioned it and I’m not sure I believe it. But that is what the church, in those days, was teaching us. If you want to argue with Sister Mary Rose,OMF, on your own head be it. Believe me she was no rose. 😃
 
So when Jesus said His sheep shall never perish, He didn’t really mean it?
Is that a relevant question?

When Paul said:
1 Cor. 4: 2 Here now it is required among the dispensers that a man be found faithful. 3 But to me it is a very small thing to be judged by you or by man’s day. But neither do I judge my own self. 4 For I am not conscious to myself of anything. Yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore, judge not before the time: until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts. And then shall every man have praise from God
…you don’t think you should follow his example?

Why is Paul’s exhortation necessary here: 2Cor. 6, 1: “And we helping do exhort you that you receive not the grace of God in vain”? What do you make of this kind of warning to believers, which is a frequent refrain in the NT?:

1Cor 9, 27 “But I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.”

1Cor 10, 9 “Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them tempted and perished by the serpent. 10 Neither do you murmur, as some of them murmured and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them in figure: and they are written for our correction, upon whom the ends of the world have come. 12 Wherefore, he that thinks himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall.”
 
Tares among the wheat.
Ahh, an evasion of the question by quoting a similar passage. So you’re saying that Jesus was wrong to consider the people that He was addressing in John 15:1-10 as disciples.

I suppose you’re saying that those that He addressed and did fall away to be pruned at a later time were also sheep the Father sent? Because it sounds like you’re contradicting yourself here.
 
I can’t believe you are even saying this. Don’t you understand what it means to be born from above?

Anyone can say they are a believer. If there is no change of heart, you were never born again. God makes us NEW creations in Christ.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
You know where I’m going with this, byfaithalone.

Let me give you an example:

My son loves me very much, and I know in his heart that he does, and I love him. But when I tell him to clean his room, stop teasing his sister, pick up his toys, he doesn’t and he ignores me. He doesn’t voluntarily help around the house, and just walks by his mother as she’s scrubbing the floor, never offering to help. That night, he asks me for his allowance to go out with his friends to the movie. Should I give him the money and let him go out with his friends? Of course not! He loves me, but has lost the ‘gift’ of allowance. In a way, his free will to choose to disobey me and deny the gift I was giving him. He loves me, but also he knew that by disobeying my will (the will of the Father) he’d problably lose his allowance.
 
byfaithalone,

I see you are getting pummeled with all sorts of questions by people who obviously don’t agree with your interpretation of Scripture.

You can probably see by now that even though you don’t agree with our interpretations, we do very vigorously defend our Church and Her views of Scripture.

With that, I’m going to leave the discussion. I do not want to add to more debates because this thread has gone way off track and likely a moderator is going to come and either set things straight by demanding we stay on topic or closing the thread altogether.

However, feel free to start a new thread with whatever bothers you about Catholic teaching in another thread.
 
Wrong. Christ did not give us a church. Christ BUILT His church, and believers ARE His church.

No, God gave us Scripture. Why do you insist on glorifying man for what God has done?

Could you post for me, all the Scripture your church has infallibly interpreted?
it is a visible Church and it is the Catholic church. And he built it on Peter, the first leader of the Catholic Church, with an unbroken apostolic succession down to today with Pope Benedict. And the fullness of the teaching of the Truth of Christ is located in the Catholic Church, nowhere else. If your interpretations on scripture and doctrine are at odds to those of the Catholic Church, you are in error.

I think that it is important to note that Matters of Dogma require our acceptance, not necessarily our full understanding and “signing off on them” so to speak.

There are a couple of ways to look at problematic issues.

One is that one cannot accept something unless they fully understand it. By this measure none of us could even be Christian for we cannot fully understand the mysteries of Christ’s salvic mission, how grace works, the Trinity or a whole host of other issues.

The other is to recognize that, even though we may not fully understand an issue we can accept it on the authority of the Church to “bind and loose”. By this we can recognize that no dogmatic declaration is ever made lightly or without considerable study and prayer. ***We also know that Christ established a Church specifically to deal with such issues and to settle such disagreements. ***
The first method requires that a person render judgment on a matter of faith. This requires that said person fully investigate all of the relevant documents, declarations, history etc. In essence it requires the individual to fully re-investigate the matter and then, they must feel confident enough in their own infallibility to render a judgment contrary to that which the Church has set forth.

The Second method only requires that an individual assent to the possibility that the Church, with all of her history and resourses, might know a bit more about a given issue than the individual does. So while the individual might be able to say, “I’m not sure about this dogma”, they can also say, “I accept the teaching on faith in Christ, His promises and His Church”.

In reality I doubt that their are many catholics out there who fully understand and accept EVERY teaching of the Church. There ARE many who accept the teachings on faith.
I certainly fall into the second category.
 
Ahh, an evasion of the question by quoting a similar passage. So you’re saying that Jesus was wrong to consider the people that He was addressing in John 15:1-10 as disciples.

I suppose you’re saying that those that He addressed and did fall away to be pruned at a later time were also sheep the Father sent? Because it sounds like you’re contradicting yourself here.
How so? There will always be tares among the wheat. There will always be false teachers among the sheep. Wolves in sheeps clothing. This is a fact.

Jesus does not cast out those that the Father has given to Him.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
 
You know where I’m going with this, byfaithalone.

Let me give you an example:

My son loves me very much, and I know in his heart that he does, and I love him. But when I tell him to clean his room, stop teasing his sister, pick up his toys, he doesn’t and he ignores me. He doesn’t voluntarily help around the house, and just walks by his mother as she’s scrubbing the floor, never offering to help. That night, he asks me for his allowance to go out with his friends to the movie. Should I give him the money and let him go out with his friends? Of course not! He loves me, but has lost the ‘gift’ of allowance. In a way, his free will to choose to disobey me and deny the gift I was giving him. He loves me, but also he knew that by disobeying my will (the will of the Father) he’d problably lose his allowance.
Yes, I see where you are going. I also noticed that you didn’t mention that you disowned your son. He is STILL your son. You chastised him because that is what good parents are supposed to do.
We, believers, are adopted sons and daughters, heirs. When we do something wrong, God does not disown us, we are still His children. God chastises those that are His. If you aren’t chastised by God when you do wrong, you do not belong to Him.
Point being, yes, we do wrong, we sin, we fall, but we are never disowned. We never cease to belong to Him. We are never cast out.
 
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